Handling: FWD vs RWD

[achtung]

Bought Autocar UK 19 Nov 08 edition caused I was intrigued by the cover story....
Renault R26R vs Cayman S
FF plays MR
1,230kg plays 1,340kg

Seems like the R26R is a R26 on a diet. Carbonfibre bonnet, no sound proofing, no stereo, no airbags, windows aft of the doors are polycarbonate, etc. Savings of 132kg over regular R26.

Cayman S need no introduction here.


Suspension setup
R26R
F: MacPherson Struts, Coil Springs, Anti-Roll Bar
R: Torsion Beam, Coil Springs, Anti-Roll Bar (Oh... I thought torsion beam is a cheap car manufacturers' solution?)

Cayman S
F: MacPherson Struts, Coil Springs, Anti-Roll Bar
R: MacPherson Struts, Coil Springs, Anti-Roll Bar


Although the mag agree that the Cayman S is more fun and its a pedigree sports car,... it says that "Even in mucky conditions the R26R can carry as much speed through a corner as the Cayman".

A FWD car with its engine block sitting over the front strut towers carrying as much speed through a corner as as the mighty Cayman S' MR setup?! Wow!!
Am I missing something here?
Maybe RWD is not as mighty after all?

Just curious.

Somebody, anybody.... do shed some light.....


Cheers

 

[Remus325]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

The Renault is 110kg lighter than the Cayman. I have not seen the article but maybe the Renault comes shod with stickier tyres as well.

 

[achtung]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

The Renault is 110kg lighter than the Cayman. I have not seen the article but maybe the Renault comes shod with stickier tyres as well.

Yes, lighter.... but I would assume with that engine block in front of its front strut tower, there is no 50/50 weight distribution. The Cayman S on the other hand should be near perfect.

Good point, I checked the article, the R26R wears Toyo Proxes R888s (track tyres), nothing mentioned about the Cayman S.

Can it be that simple? (i.e. A non 50/50 balanced FWD car that is lighter by approx 110kg wearing track tyres can carry as much speed through a corner as a balanced RWD car?). If it is, then we bought a lie by manufacturers who trumpet near 50/50 weight distribution and RWD for handling.

BTW, the latest EVO mag on the shelves, (EVO Car of the year), rates the R26R as number 4 (I know its subjective) beating the likes of the E92 M3, the Lexus ISF, the Alfa 8C, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I love RWD... just am amazed at the audacity of the FWD R26R gate-crashing on the RWD handling party.:yikess:

 

[delrosa81]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

Hmmm just to add my views on this, which I am thinking of:-

Magazines are just magazines, they are written by people which have one thing in common with everyone, favouritism in certain ways. Well they could be inclined towards a certain make or model in "many" ways as well. Honestly the R26R and Cayman S have a pretty big gap in terms of pricing, appealing to different markets.

In local context if you have lotsa money, would you go for a Cayman S or a R26R??? For me I would die die go for the Cayman S bcos Im a sucker for badges. This kinda articles is to let ppl who cant afford a Cayman S to say wah R26R better than Cayman S lei, ok la, onz liao buy R26R.

But in actual reality, which is better, take for example, me, I take both cars for a test drive and I may have the conclusion Cayman S is better, why? Bcos my driving techniques, style, etc is more inclined towards the handling response of the Cayman S and not the R26R.

But for some whose driving techniques are more inclined and better matched to the Renault R26R may find eh R26R sibeh good lei, Cayman S cannot make it la, I turn abit oversteer liao or watever scenario he/she makes it.

One man's meat is another man's poison I would say and also should you be interested in a certain make or model, one should go test drive all in ur list and do a direct comparison from there. Bcos one has tested himself and knows which one is better suited for him/her.

It has been said RWD is better than FWD and AWD is the best with LSD, etc. But its best to try it for oneself and come out with the conclusion. There are many schools of thought and Bimmers being the Ultimate Driving Machine, I have compared between the civic FD and the E90, straightline stability, I find Civic FD is better at speeds averaging between 180 to 200+ KPH. Round corners, the Bimmer handles better. But some may say, how can it be, Bimmer straightline sure more stable, etc but this is my honest opinion, so it differs from person to person....

Ops very long winded, just giving my personal opinion thats all.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

through a corner as as the mighty Cayman S' MR setup?! Wow!!
Am I missing something here?
Maybe RWD is not as mighty after all?

Like others have said, it's a matter of load per tire, tire compound and how the tire face is presented to the road. Important point though is that, sticking does not equal handling. Good speed of transition between lat. and long. accel. of a car, yaw rate, all reasonably within typical human control, is good handling.

Torsion beam suspension designed specifically for stick, will do it well, while hurting other areas of performance like long. accel. Independence of L and R wheels is not a problem on smooth courses. Dual A arm or multi link suspension on the other hand can be designed to do a mix of things well since kinematics can be set alot closer to what designer wants, and degree of independence between the L and R wheels is easier to change purely through ARB.

In general and all else equal, a car that sticks well in long sustained corner will be compromised on its ability to accelerate and decelerate in a straight line. This is especially so with FWD, and depending on course type and power, isn't necessarily a problem. On a typical course though, FWDs driven hard also tend to go through front tires quickly since the fronts do almost all the braking, turning, accelerating. RWDs have definite advantage in spreading out tire wear, but mainly it is the weight distribution that RWD allows that leads to handling advantage. Decent power FWDs need to keep weight over the front to keep long. accel. decent.. esp for street driven cars and even most track layouts. Nose heavy hurts handling and braking, but there are other areas of the car to improve to offset this to end with overall good package.

 

[achtung]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

In local context if you have lotsa money, would you go for a Cayman S or a R26R??? For me I would die die go for the Cayman S bcos Im a sucker for badges. This kinda articles is to let ppl who cant afford a Cayman S to say wah R26R better than Cayman S lei, ok la, onz liao buy R26R.

Hey Dude, no lah, me not buying.... in this depressed economic climate.... no guts to buy anything big and its not as if I have the excess cash .

Of course, if its a buying decision, like you, I would get the Cayman S. The badge and something different. (Had FF before and now a FR, next a MR would be nice).

Yes, most definately agree with you that the 2 cars probably cater to different segments of the market,... the monied and the not so monied.... the reson for my post is,.... the shock to find out that a front heavy FF can corner as fast as a balanced MR.

Wah lau... this means, all the Picantos and the likes (being light) wearing slicks will chiet us in the corners. :laughlik: (PS: Not slamming Picantos, just using a light weight FF car and the first that came to mind was the Picanto caused apparently you are "driving" a Picanto that is faster than a GTR .......... not)

It has been said RWD is better than FWD and AWD is the best with LSD, etc. But its best to try it for oneself and come out with the conclusion. There are many schools of thought and Bimmers being the Ultimate Driving Machine, I have compared between the civic FD and the E90, straightline stability, I find Civic FD is better at speeds averaging between 180 to 200+ KPH. Round corners, the Bimmer handles better. But some may say, how can it be, Bimmer straightline sure more stable, etc but this is my honest opinion, so it differs from person to person....

Ops very long winded, just giving my personal opinion thats all.

Oh.... saw a sticker on a certain red E36 318is "quattro ist fur sissies"

Also agree that there are many schools of thoughts and no one is the wiser.

FD more stable at 180 to 200+kmh than the E90? :yikess: Did you have your M-Tech kit at that time? (Speaking of which, if you ever want to dekit, I chop your M-Tech body kit)

 

[TripleM]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

When u have a car that light with reasonably good power and set up (incl the semi slick tires as well ! ), it aint surprising at all to see significant improvement in cornering speed... As a matter of fact, I have never underestimated those FWD cars like JDM CTR or ITR with a decent track set up.

If it is, then we bought a lie by manufacturers who trumpet near 50/50 weight distribution and RWD for handling

Not a lie...
To me (and many of you would probably agree ) ... what matters more is what the feeling is like when driving both cars when goin through the very same corners. For a perfectly balanced car even it is hippo heavy like the E92M3 (1655kgs) which I recently tested on the track, the feeling was superb and the car was only on street tires.

 

[achtung]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

Like others have said, it's a matter of load per tire, tire compound and how the tire face is presented to the road. Important point though is that, sticking does not equal handling. Good speed of transition between lat. and long. accel. of a car, yaw rate, all reasonably within typical human control, is good handling.

Torsion beam suspension designed specifically for stick, will do it well, while hurting other areas of performance like long. accel. Independence of L and R wheels is not a problem on smooth courses. Dual A arm or multi link suspension on the other hand can be designed to do a mix of things well since kinematics can be set alot closer to what designer wants, and degree of independence between the L and R wheels is easier to change purely through ARB.

Very interesting!

1. Handling is NOT the same as stick.
2. Torsion Beam designed specifically for stick

As I thought with a Torsion Beam the rear wheels are not independent. However, the test was not done on a smooth track. It was on some B roads in Wales. I had the impression that that cars with Torsion Beam in the rear will not be able to corner well, seems like I was wrong all along.:yikess:

In general and all else equal, a car that sticks well in long sustained corner will be compromised on its ability to accelerate and decelerate in a straight line. This is especially so with FWD, and depending on course type and power, isn't necessarily a problem. On a typical course though, FWDs driven hard also tend to go through front tires quickly since the fronts do almost all the braking, turning, accelerating. RWDs have definite advantage in spreading out tire wear, but mainly it is the weight distribution that RWD allows that leads to handling advantage. Decent power FWDs need to keep weight over the front to keep long. accel. decent.. esp for street driven cars and even most track layouts. Nose heavy hurts handling and braking, but there are other areas of the car to improve to offset this to end with overall good package.

Seems like Renault did an excellent job with the R26R. Cause from what I read, it not only sticks but it handles.

More extracts:
"..the Renault kept the Porsche in sight all the time, without even having to give it a proper trashing,...

"... The R26R's body movements are supremely well controlled


Wah lau,.... my FF pals are going to glout at all the talk about balance and RWD man.....



EVO mag links (just some short clips)
evo Car of the year Video | evo | (Part 1, In Wales)
evo Car of the year Video | evo (Part 2, Across France)



disclaimer: I am not associated with Renault in anyway and have nothing to gain from this discussion other then knowledge

 

[achtung]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

When u have a car that light with reasonably good power and set up (incl the semi slick tires as well ! ), it aint surprising at all to see significant improvement in cornering speed... As a matter of fact, I have never underestimated those FWD cars like JDM CTR or ITR with a decent track set up.



Not a lie...
To me (and many of you would probably agree ) ... what matters more is what the feeling is like when driving both cars when goin through the very same corners. For a perfectly balanced car even it is hippo heavy like the E92M3 (1655kgs) which I recently tested on the track, the feeling was superb and the car was only on street tires.

Neither do I underestimate F&F FWD cars, just never thought that they can corner that well..... Maybe I watched too much Initial-D

Yes, agree that the feel on taking a RWD thru the corners with no torque steer is beautiful.

 

[panzer]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

FF / FWD is good in corners..... eats the corner sharp but u need fast in slow out to prevent understeer.... RWD is good in corners too cannot eat the corner but has the danger of oversteer so need slow in but can fast out.... can counter against oversteer if it slides when out of corner. But understeer hard to reverse once its out of the line.
FF has a lighter overall weight... wheras FR has a heavier undercarriage.... rear shaft power loss also......

Juz my 2 cents

 

[golfgti]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

FF car handles easier around faster corners as u liftoff oversteer to point the car around the corner. FR u use rear power to "drift" around the front to point the car to exit direction.. different physics involved, some drivers call it the natural way to drive... hehe.. if u have go-karted before the answer is obvious... basically minimal steering input but u are still taking the corner flat out by taking a wider entry angle.

turn 7 & 8 at sepang is a good example of different handling physics for an FF & FR.

 

[futron.sim]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

IMHO, it depends alot on the setup of the car. Unless both have optimum setups, its quite impossible to compare their cornering capabilities.

Eg. Honda cars are mostly FF (exception of S2000 and NSX) but their Civic Type Rs can easily beat RWDs in cornering. It has more to do with car design and setup.

IMHO, its only possible to compared FWD vs RWD when both cars are optimised for the track and only the drive train is the limiting factor, else I doubt it can be a fair comparison.

 

[golfgti]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

IMHO, its only possible to compared FWD vs RWD when both cars are optimised for the track and only the drive train is the limiting factor, else I doubt it can be a fair comparison.

actual the most limiting factor is the driver's skill. when u dont know cornering limits or dont know how to take the corner, it doesnt matter if u drive a R35 or not.

ive seen mildy modded FF cars easily keep up with high powered FR turbos due to driver skill

 

[Shaun]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

Very interesting!

1. Handling is NOT the same as stick.
2. Torsion Beam designed specifically for stick

As I thought with a Torsion Beam the rear wheels are not independent. However, the test was not done on a smooth track. It was on some B roads in Wales. I had the impression that that cars with Torsion Beam in the rear will not be able to corner well, seems like I was wrong all along.

It's not that all torsion beams are designed for stick. What I said was that a torsion beam can be designed to stick, but that it is not as adaptable as other suspension types without requiring a complete redesign. It is also inherently more compromised if one area is to be made strong.

Seems like Renault did an excellent job with the R26R. Cause from what I read, it not only sticks but it handles.

More extracts:
"..the Renault kept the Porsche in sight all the time, without even having to give it a proper trashing,...

"... The R26R's body movements are supremely well controlled

Almost all motoring journalists suck in both their understanding and expression of a car's performance. What sort of roads or course were they on? The second statement can refer to ride instead of handling.

You can't use a comparison of two cars to compare two drive layouts because cars are a sum of many factors, not just the one you are seeking to compare. In the end for things like this you will have to rely on proven principle because no two cars exist to purely compare FWD and RWD. For example in this R26 vs Cayman comparison, here are a list of some variables in this test.. tire construction, size, compounds, dampers, surface and course each car was built for, and if not, how specific an operating window it was designed for, driver background and preference hence driver confidence, which car led and which car followed, gearing, air and surface temps, etc.

Oh.... saw a sticker on a certain red E36 318is "quattro ist fur sissies"

Reality is though, once you go to the higher power ranges, especially on street tires - AWD has huge advantage and would eat most any RWD car of equal power and equal total tire patch. Eat them alive hahah.

The only reason you don't see AWD in racing more (even with big power cars) is because the of cost control and the fact that they have huge sticky tires, low weight and lots of downforce. There is also the factor of tradition for formula cars.

Also agree that there are many schools of thoughts and no one is the wiser.

If a racecar designer were to be given the option of any drive system and layout he wanted with only limits being a minimum weight slightly above what he could design the car (of any layout) at, tire size similar for all, power, downforce, he would pick RWD or AWD. There just would be no good reason to go FWD.

FF car handles easier around faster corners as u liftoff oversteer to point the car around the corner. FR u use rear power to "drift" around the front to point the car to exit direction..

A RWD has liftoff oversteer as well as power oversteer, not just the latter.

Eg. Honda cars are mostly FF (exception of S2000 and NSX) but their Civic Type Rs can easily beat RWDs in cornering. It has more to do with car design and setup.

IMHO, its only possible to compared FWD vs RWD when both cars are optimised for the track and only the drive train is the limiting factor, else I doubt it can be a fair comparison.

Speed of current CTR vs S2K can be attributed to its RE070s, wider track, stiffer suspension, wing and underwing, proper brakes. But like I said, you can't use a comparison of two cars to compare two drive layouts because cars are a sum of many factors, not just the one you are seeking to compare. In the end for things like this you will have to rely on proven principle because no two cars exist to purely compare FWD and RWD. Though...is there any car in history designed from the ground up for performance, and not limited by any ruleset, that was designed as a FWD? Production or racing.. when you sort out the rest of a car (all else equal), FWD is just never a consideration.

 

[golfgti]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

Though...is there any car in history designed from the ground up for performance, and not limited by any ruleset, that was designed as a FWD?

DC2R? Dodge SRT4? can consider? guess not... anyway can argue whole day FF vs FR but let the results speak.. look at MME... how many FF, FR & AWD finished the race...

 

[Shaun]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

Those cars are all low cost street cars.

There is no clear comparison except for principle.. even using MME and looking at how many of each layout finish the race, here are the variables from layout to layout..

- knowledge base
- general experience
- power level and hence mechanical stress
- how competitive the class is, how much the teams have put at stake and so how hard the drivers push
- number of cars starting the race

 

[axl]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

DC2R? Dodge SRT4? can consider? guess not... anyway can argue whole day FF vs FR but let the results speak.. look at MME... how many FF, FR & AWD finished the race...

I think the finishing of the MME speaks much more about the car setup for endurance racing, rather than the superiority of one drivetrain over another.

 

[DoggieHowser]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

Heh, Top Gear is the least authoritative word in such discussions and I still don't believe the Fiesta 1.6l FF can out manouevre the FR Corvette in a shopping mall

YouTube - Top Gear Mall Chase - Ford Fiesta vs. Corvette

[youtube]OqCHcl8UM1k[/youtube]

 

[achtung]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

It's not that all torsion beams are designed for stick. What I said was that a torsion beam can be designed to stick, but that it is not as adaptable as other suspension types without requiring a complete redesign. It is also inherently more compromised if one area is to be made strong.

Noted with thanks

Almost all motoring journalists suck in both their understanding and expression of a car's performance. What sort of roads or course were they on? The second statement can refer to ride instead of handling.

Will it be correct to say that sticking is a sub-set of handling? i.e. all good handling cars, stick.

 

[achtung]

Re: Handling: FWD vs RWD

actual the most limiting factor is the driver's skill. when u dont know cornering limits or dont know how to take the corner, it doesnt matter if u drive a R35 or not.

ive seen mildy modded FF cars easily keep up with high powered FR turbos due to driver skill

So, from all the discussions thus far, all things being equal. Tyre contact patch, power, torque, driver, etc.

AWD better than RWD better than FWD?