Bmw=porsche?

[satinGHOST|r!der]

In the old days, there was everyone else and then there was Porsche.

Their brand had a mystique and they lived up to their slogan, 'There IS no substitute'.

But the more I see what they're doing today, I see them missing the boat in the sweet spot that they compete in and I'm not so sure I see a bright future for the brand.

Today's announcement of Peter Schwarzenbauer heading over to Audi only reinforced my theory.

I've had the chance to spend some time with him at Porsche and I can tell you he is a smart dude.

You don't leave the position he had for Audi unless what he saw coming over the next few years was less than impressive in his eyes.

The Boxster/Cayenne sales are weak, the Cayenne isn't exactly flying off the shelves and people I've talked to who have seen the upcoming Panamera say its nice but not mind-blowing compared to cars like the M5, E63, S6, etc.

Sure they have some great rides like the GT2 but I'm referring to the everyday cars in the volume segments like the Boxster/Cayman/Cayenne/911's.

I don't see the future for them looking so rosy there.

What's happening there is the antithesis of what's going on at BMW.

In every segment where the two are competing against each other BMW is simply kicking their asses.

In products and in consumer mind share.

If you ask me, BMW is the NEW Porsche.

Right now, BMW could carry the moniker 'There is no substitute' better than Porsche in my opinion.

M5, 650, 135i, 335, M Coupe, X6...and the list keeps growing.

Across the board and sales and street cred will back me up.

Do you agree?

Is the Porsche magic diminishing?

Is it more impressive to own a BMW today than a Porsche?

What recommendations would you make to the next Exec that takes over for Schwarzenbauer?

================================================================

This is more of a debate thread. I know that the BMW doesnt handle as good as the porsche but i gotta agree that Porsche has designed their cars predominantly to sell at different price points. Ever since they crippled the cayman with such power, it was a turn off to many who considered the car for its sublime handling. Some may argue they dont mind the power but most buy a sports breed that should have some decent power. If only the cayman S had a lil more power to start with, I'd think it would be a no brainer car to get. It was the only reason that prevented me from getting one. Though the motive for BMW is just mass produce cars now, I personally feel that Porsche still is in a league of its own and cant be compared to BMW. But i think it should be a wake up call for them to start doing something abt the lower- mid range cars. They just cant keep up with the power ante that most other manufacturers are churning out now. Keeping up in the sense, not technologically, but from a marketing point of view.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

I will watch over this thread. It will be a Centurion & Triple M & PG7170 vs Elmariachi thread.

 

[Physicist]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

The only Porkers I will consider buying are the GT3 or the Turbo.

The 997S loses out to the new M3 (as a whole package) in my opinion.

 

[phil]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

i would only have a speedster, james dean style

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

The only Porkers I will consider buying are the GT3 or the Turbo.

The 997S loses out to the new M3 (as a whole package) in my opinion.

I agree. PLus the Carrera GT too. Oh My Oh.

 

[Darth Vader]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

cayman s limited black edition is nice.if got money i buy that one.not the rest.

 

[Physicist]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

I saw the GT3 RS on many occasions and I have to say the flat six high strung exhaust sounds bloody good! Thats what you get when you cram more than 100bhp into one litre of cylinder space! Steam!!!!

 

[centurion]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

The statements made in the first post of this thread, several are value judgments. The original text is here: Is BMW The New Porsche? - AutoSpies Auto News

OK, I spend nights discussing the car industry with my sibling who's in GM Detroit. No new insights, just confirmation of theories. It adds a little more confidence I have in my thoughts. Here is what I think now...

What is said is partly correct:
In the old days, there was everyone else and then there was Porsche.

I would correct it:
In the car industry, there is everyone else and then there was Porsche and Ferrari.

You see, the name of the game in the car industry, hard disk drive industry, electronics components industries, because of the inefficiencies, a crazy competitive situation, and commoditization, and the decreasing importance of BRANDING for commodity products, VOLUME is the name of the game.

Using brand acquisitions, platform sharing, price cutting, supplier squeezing, margin cutting, crazy finance schemes, segment proliferation, market share grabbing, competitor copying, decreased risk taking, formulaic product development, cost cutting, quality cutting, fleet sales, etc etc. all the car companies in the world have to increase their volumes or DIE. We see Isuzu getting out of the market, Chrysler in trouble, all signs of caniballization.

They are playing it more or less correctly. They have to sell more and more and more. They make less or more or less the same every year. Their margins are small.

But Porsche and Ferrari, they need not do that. They have incredible margins, and their volume is not as small as Spyker or Lamborghini, they have more or less little competition in their price segments.

For example, Z4M or Cayman S? It don't take a rocket scientist to see on the streets who is more successful. M3 or 911 C2? Even though the 911 C2 is WAAAAY more expensive, it will be the C2. Panamera or 650? No prizes for guessing, LOL.

Even so, selling large volumes of cars is not the name of the game for Porsche. Porsche, Lambo and Ferrari HAVE to limit their supply. Same as LV limits supply. The huge sales of 997 in 2004-2006 in the UK had actually a very detrimental effect on the brand. The 2.5 Boxster, for example, because of uncontrolled sales, now has dropped below 10K pounds sterling in the UK, and this scares the shit outta Porsche.

Porsche does NOT have to be big. They can keep on selling 100K a year to existing markets, and when new markets like Russia and China open, they can up it to 120K. That is their growth, not by taking market share from others to grow, but to fulfil the upper segment of new markets as they open, and maintain their market share in existing markets. The Cayenne is a bonus, it is not their business to sell SUVs, and Porsche chose to sell SUVs because they KNEW that it would not have affected their sportscar market no matter how much they sold. Selling the Cayenne is EXACTLY THE SAME as their recent action of taking EURO 10 billion credit line and putting it in high yield investments - utterly not their core business, just do it for the money.

All the talk about power and performance is NOT for their traditional customers. As long as Porsche churns out reasonably noisy unrefined cars for 10% of their traditional customers, and quieter less pure versions for the other 90% of their traditional customers, they're going according to their most optimistic projections and plans.

Porsche spends a little more making their cars than others, They can afford to. The build quality of Porsche compared to every one out there, is exemplary, like what Toyota is doing for their Lexus. They HAVE to do this, it is expected of them, and no longer will they have lost their way as when they first went watercooled with their RMS issues etc. They are rich enough, and their brand strong enough, NOT to have to fiddle with new technology anymore. They are tuning old tech, and that suits their traditional customers fine. They CAN afford to ONLY churn out 245HP out of 2.7 litres, they don't have to reach 330HP with a 3litre highly tuned engine, they don't have to take crazy risks with HUD technology on their cars, simply because of their branding and their confidence that their cars will sell on traditional values alone, that of handling, competence and driving enjoyment.

The ONLY 2 issues facing Porsche today is the 911 and DSG, I guess. And that's not even a big issue. They have to consider the rear-engine status of the 911 and the portion of traditional customers they are losing, because even their traditional customers today, who demand good handling and enjoyment, have wanted a little more balance than a rear engine platform could provide.

As for DSG, it's a non-issue, it will eventually come. They NEED DSG to replace the autobox, not only because their customers demand it, but legislation for emissions and fuel consumption. But early adoption of DSG gives them the issue of unreliability, those who have done in a DSG car up a steep slope in a traffic jam can well identify the smell of a burning clutch. Porsche had to wait for the new ceramics which had near zero wear to come out of the DSG suppliers, and when it's bulletproof, they will use it. Why wait so long? Because they CAN.

Porsche is not in the business of taking risks with tech. The people taking risks are BMW and Mercedes Benz. Ferrari employs a huge range of new tech, that is their ethos, but they are NOT taking risks, because their customers are PREPARED to spend a LOT of money on repairs and anyway, most of their customers are low mileage guys anyway. And the margin Ferrari has on their cars, is huge enough to replace the entire car many times over. So, Ferrari uses tech as a marketing tool, however unreliable it is. It's not risk.

I hope you post this message, Omar, to whoever posted the initial message, in the hope that it will shed some more light on the original poster's misconception that Porsche has to sell many many many cars to win.

Because at the end of it all, Porsche does not need to sell many cars. It just needs to make money. Because they have not forgotten that, as a business, they have to make money, not meet increasing number targets every year.

Porsche is not Seagate, Intel, Samsung, Toshiba, Chrysler and BMW. Porsche does not want to become Mercedes Benz, who once was like Porsche but have since made a mistake of greed, and now is in the no-man's land between Porsche and BMW. Mercedes will take more than a decade, if properly executed, to reach the similar position as Porsche today.

 

[axl]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

Well, Porsche IS still the most profitable car manufacturer in the world ya? Which means they're indeed doing something right to their marketing/appeal factor, manufacturing effficiencies etc.

And IMHO quite difficult to compare the 2 brands - one has always cater to the mass-market since the 50s, whereas the other marque only has their 1st 4-dr car in 2002 in fact.

Add: In any case, Porsche AG owns VW now, thus if they wanna expand their range, this relationship will prove to be very helpful for sure.

 

[axl]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

"those who have dne in a DSG car up a steep slope in a traffic jam can well identify the smell of a burning clutch"

Just curious... is this a widespread phenomenon here? Any TT/GTI drivers care to comment? Veyron owners may chip in also.

 

[delrosa81]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

hmmm maybe I off topic abit or am I in the topic I also dunno. But I am looking for a used 1 yr or slightly older Boxster S Cabrio, Im not very into Porsche, how it handles, etc but Im more interested in the Pose factor ya, I cant afford a Ferrari now but I think a Boxster S Cabrio is enough for the pose factor though. So I would say there would also be many others like me? Anyways their profit margins should be very high ya? hahaha I think I very boh liao la....U guys can continue....

 

[kenntona]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

The Boxster/Cayenne sales are weak, the Cayenne isn't exactly flying off the shelves and people I've talked to who have seen the upcoming Panamera say its nice but not mind-blowing compared to cars like the M5, E63, S6, etc.

Sure they have some great rides like the GT2 but I'm referring to the everyday cars in the volume segments like the Boxster/Cayman/Cayenne/911's.

M5, 650, 135i, 335, M Coupe, X6...and the list keeps growing.

Across the board and sales and street cred will back me up.

The BMW range is wider, but is it really true they are selling more of some of those exotic models?

Dun even think their positioning strategies are on similar planes........

 

[totoseow]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

bmw is bmw...porky is porky.
i speak english doesnt make me ang mor.
hv procede doesnt make the 335 a M car....
get real....

times may change...but marque perception is based on a reputation u build over the years. no point comparing the two. that article was based on one persons opinion.

i seldom agree with centurion....this is one occasion i do. go find more bentleys to chiet...omar...build up the reputation of 335.

 

[totoseow]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

i happened to read that when the cayenne was launch, porsche made a lot of money from it. they were selling at 20,000 units per yr..which was double that was originally forecasted.

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

The statements made in the first post of this thread, several are value judgments. The original text is here: Is BMW The New Porsche? - AutoSpies Auto News

OK, I spend nights discussing the car industry with my sibling who's in GM Detroit. No new insights, just confirmation of theories. It adds a little more confidence I have in my thoughts. Here is what I think now...

What is said is partly correct:
In the old days, there was everyone else and then there was Porsche.

I would correct it:
In the car industry, there is everyone else and then there was Porsche and Ferrari.

You see, the name of the game in the car industry, hard disk drive industry, electronics components industries, because of the inefficiencies, a crazy competitive situation, and commoditization, and the decreasing importance of BRANDING for commodity products, VOLUME is the name of the game.

Using brand acquisitions, platform sharing, price cutting, supplier squeezing, margin cutting, crazy finance schemes, segment proliferation, market share grabbing, competitor copying, decreased risk taking, formulaic product development, cost cutting, quality cutting, fleet sales, etc etc. all the car companies in the world have to increase their volumes or DIE. We see Isuzu getting out of the market, Chrysler in trouble, all signs of caniballization.

They are playing it more or less correctly. They have to sell more and more and more. They make less or more or less the same every year. Their margins are small.

But Porsche and Ferrari, they need not do that. They have incredible margins, and their volume is not as small as Spyker or Lamborghini, they have more or less little competition in their price segments.

For example, Z4M or Cayman S? It don't take a rocket scientist to see on the streets who is more successful. M3 or 911 C2? Even though the 911 C2 is WAAAAY more expensive, it will be the C2. Panamera or 650? No prizes for guessing, LOL.

Even so, selling large volumes of cars is not the name of the game for Porsche. Porsche, Lambo and Ferrari HAVE to limit their supply. Same as LV limits supply. The huge sales of 997 in 2004-2006 in the UK had actually a very detrimental effect on the brand. The 2.5 Boxster, for example, because of uncontrolled sales, now has dropped below 10K pounds sterling in the UK, and this scares the shit outta Porsche.

Porsche does NOT have to be big. They can keep on selling 100K a year to existing markets, and when new markets like Russia and China open, they can up it to 120K. That is their growth, not by taking market share from others to grow, but to fulfil the upper segment of new markets as they open, and maintain their market share in existing markets. The Cayenne is a bonus, it is not their business to sell SUVs, and Porsche chose to sell SUVs because they KNEW that it would not have affected their sportscar market no matter how much they sold. Selling the Cayenne is EXACTLY THE SAME as their recent action of taking EURO 10 billion credit line and putting it in high yield investments - utterly not their core business, just do it for the money.

All the talk about power and performance is NOT for their traditional customers. As long as Porsche churns out reasonably noisy unrefined cars for 10% of their traditional customers, and quieter less pure versions for the other 90% of their traditional customers, they're going according to their most optimistic projections and plans.

Porsche spends a little more making their cars than others, They can afford to. The build quality of Porsche compared to every one out there, is exemplary, like what Toyota is doing for their Lexus. They HAVE to do this, it is expected of them, and no longer will they have lost their way as when they first went watercooled with their RMS issues etc. They are rich enough, and their brand strong enough, NOT to have to fiddle with new technology anymore. They are tuning old tech, and that suits their traditional customers fine. They CAN afford to ONLY churn out 245HP out of 2.7 litres, they don't have to reach 330HP with a 3litre highly tuned engine, they don't have to take crazy risks with HUD technology on their cars, simply because of their branding and their confidence that their cars will sell on traditional values alone, that of handling, competence and driving enjoyment.

The ONLY 2 issues facing Porsche today is the 911 and DSG, I guess. And that's not even a big issue. They have to consider the rear-engine status of the 911 and the portion of traditional customers they are losing, because even their traditional customers today, who demand good handling and enjoyment, have wanted a little more balance than a rear engine platform could provide.

As for DSG, it's a non-issue, it will eventually come. They NEED DSG to replace the autobox, not only because their customers demand it, but legislation for emissions and fuel consumption. But early adoption of DSG gives them the issue of unreliability, those who have done in a DSG car up a steep slope in a traffic jam can well identify the smell of a burning clutch. Porsche had to wait for the new ceramics which had near zero wear to come out of the DSG suppliers, and when it's bulletproof, they will use it. Why wait so long? Because they CAN.

Porsche is not in the business of taking risks with tech. The people taking risks are BMW and Mercedes Benz. Ferrari employs a huge range of new tech, that is their ethos, but they are NOT taking risks, because their customers are PREPARED to spend a LOT of money on repairs and anyway, most of their customers are low mileage guys anyway. And the margin Ferrari has on their cars, is huge enough to replace the entire car many times over. So, Ferrari uses tech as a marketing tool, however unreliable it is. It's not risk.

I hope you post this message, Omar, to whoever posted the initial message, in the hope that it will shed some more light on the original poster's misconception that Porsche has to sell many many many cars to win.

Because at the end of it all, Porsche does not need to sell many cars. It just needs to make money. Because they have not forgotten that, as a business, they have to make money, not meet increasing number targets every year.

Porsche is not Seagate, Intel, Samsung, Toshiba, Chrysler and BMW. Porsche does not want to become Mercedes Benz, who once was like Porsche but have since made a mistake of greed, and now is in the no-man's land between Porsche and BMW. Mercedes will take more than a decade, if properly executed, to reach the similar position as Porsche today.

Is BMW The New Porsche? - AutoSpies Auto News

Actually its posted all over e90post. I just wanted to see the replies from you guys. Nothing about starting a debate. More like opinions. You can actually see all the opinions below that most dont agree as well. It wasnt a post i ripped off somewhere to prove a point.

bmw is bmw...porky is porky.
i speak english doesnt make me ang mor.
hv procede doesnt make the 335 a M car....
get real....

times may change...but marque perception is based on a reputation u build over the years. no point comparing the two. that article was based on one persons opinion.

i seldom agree with centurion....this is one occasion i do. go find more bentleys to chiet...omar...build up the reputation of 335.

LOl toto. Unless i borrow your balls. :nehnehhh:

 

[TripleM]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

YES , BMW = PORSCHE !.....BOTH MADE IN GERMANY, BOTH ENGINE BAYS GOT THE WARNING STICKER AHTUNG!!!

The only difference is when you go up to Ritz for parking outside the lobby, the parking service guy will the BMW driver to procede to basement cp whereas the porky guy gets the royal treatment.

 

[centurion]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

hmmm maybe I off topic abit or am I in the topic I also dunno. But I am looking for a used 1 yr or slightly older Boxster S Cabrio, Im not very into Porsche, how it handles, etc but Im more interested in the Pose factor ya, I cant afford a Ferrari now but I think a Boxster S Cabrio is enough for the pose factor though. So I would say there would also be many others like me? Anyways their profit margins should be very high ya? hahaha I think I very boh liao la....U guys can continue....

that's why I love you delrosa, you always call yourself poser. Joke or not, because no pretense of being the `strong quiet type', it's so nice and refreshing.

 

[TripleM]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

AXL
yes, one of the most profitable auto maker....their treasury dept has done tremendously well too....all good for the parent's bottom line....

 

[delrosa81]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

that's why I love you delrosa, you always call yourself poser. Joke or not, because no pretense of being the `strong quiet type', it's so nice and refreshing.

haha i really poser ma thats y kekeke no la for me its more of a lifestyle thingy, I dont track or drive that fast on the roads anyway kekeke. If I can find a used Boxster S Cabrio at a not too ex price, it will be leisure car ya hehehe, then drive the 3er to work, run errands,etc. Then the Boxster S for outings, weekends with my wife or "mistress" hahahaha fun man.

Anyways me off topic again, yesterday was at espace service centre for an oil change, then saw a few porsches there man, fell in love with them as I went for a taxi ride in a 996. hahaha then surf net last night, found that the Boxster S Cabrio one of the more affordable ones and nicest looking and great pose value in my opinion kekekeke so decided on the Boxster S. Now trawling SG car mart for a decently priced used one.....hehehe

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Bmw=porsche?

YES , BMW = PORSCHE !.....BOTH MADE IN GERMANY, BOTH ENGINE BAYS GOT THE WARNING STICKER ACHTUNG!!!

The only difference is when you go up to Ritz for parking outside the lobby, the parking service guy will the BMW driver to procede to basement cp whereas the porky guy gets the royal treatment.

I open my engine bay so many times untill see that word.
Porky is to Lambos, Ferrari's and Maseratis as BMW is to AUDI and Merc.
Hence, the stark difference. I think that article is talking more abt the performance of the marques than the heritage. Given the variables discussed in the article, its unjust.
Like i said, its more of a discussion thread than flame bait. I hope this clears things out a little.