Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
- Thread starter Shaun
- Start date
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
No need to be so humble lah...nice camera view and driver is ok leh...
Car looked really controllable for the driver...was it the tires or just a hard rear end that makes it slide so much. Seems really sensitive to acceleration out of corners..will be interesting if you could share abit more description of the drive.
No need to be so humble lah...nice camera view and driver is ok leh...
Car looked really controllable for the driver...was it the tires or just a hard rear end that makes it slide so much. Seems really sensitive to acceleration out of corners..will be interesting if you could share abit more description of the drive.
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
You have just revealed yourself as a nerd too! Your nerd vision doesn't allow you to realize that the only reason it's fairly in control is because it is way under limit
All I can say is that with 150 lap old Hoosier R6s, with passenger and in current setup it is slightly loose and loose everywhere even at near steady state high speed sweepers. Yaw accelerations are pretty high, but the rack is quick so catching small slides is easy enough. Other atom drivers around the world describe pretty much the same thing about their cars. As passenger in other atom on semis year ago, I observed the same.
I am told however that on fresh tires it is much less loose and about 4 sec a lap quicker. The wear patterns on the tires do reflect this bias, as do measured brake and tire temps. All the loads appear to be rear biased. Quite sure it can be improved - last main resort being tire stagger if the chassis is not stiff enough to make use of spring stagger (see below).
Seems underdamped in roll. There's been unconfirmed talk about how chassis isn't very stiff so acting like an undamped torsion spring. Might be just the dampers, damper setup, driver, kinematics, or just inherent to low mass short wheelbase?. Looking forward to getting one myself and finding out through a nice sensor array and doing some development just for fun. Right now there are enough seriously interested drivers to share a few atoms.
I've seen videos of many atoms that are much less nervous, some even pushing big power over 500hp. So it's definitely possible to get them settled. Just not sure how settled together with fast it can be. Will try
All the above may be wrong though... it's all just based on 4 test laps across which I had not familiarized completely with the car, some talk and research.
Most importantly for a non competition car, it is fun to drive because of the challenge. Probably the most fun vehicle I've ever driven on a car track. Shifter karts take overall first place though for me. Atom is fast too, and there's lots of space to make it a lot faster with tons of aftermarket powertrain and wheel/tire damper options. Low weight, low consumption, low running cost. I have looked for a few years and haven't found anything as fun, cheap, reliable, with lots of aftermarket options.
When the Atom first was released, I viewed it as kind of a toy because of certain things they did with the control arms, rockers, pushrods, uprights, etc. but since then a number of aftermarket companies have stepped with upgraded and redesigned components. Still it is true the atom is no formula 2.0. It still is much faster than all other roadcars, many other trackcars, FUN, reliable (Ken has more than proven this in local climate), very cheap to run especially relative to other cars in the same time range, or even other trackcars.
Anyone want to get an atom too? Let's target 10 drivers, 5 atoms, economies of scale in shared insured storage, insured towing, spares, mechanics, etc. We've already got more than 70% of those drivers confirmed. We can start a small league and do a few races a year.
pdreams;684825 said:
You have just revealed yourself as a nerd too! Your nerd vision doesn't allow you to realize that the only reason it's fairly in control is because it is way under limit
Can't say for sure what true baseline state of the car is since have never driven it with fresh tires. Also have no numbers on setup, suspension coordinates, limits for all factors. Car has not been corner weighted yet. Not sure how loose it would be then. Or without passenger..was it the tires or just a hard rear end that makes it slide so much. Seems really sensitive to acceleration out of corners..will be interesting if you could share abit more description of the drive.
All I can say is that with 150 lap old Hoosier R6s, with passenger and in current setup it is slightly loose and loose everywhere even at near steady state high speed sweepers. Yaw accelerations are pretty high, but the rack is quick so catching small slides is easy enough. Other atom drivers around the world describe pretty much the same thing about their cars. As passenger in other atom on semis year ago, I observed the same.
I am told however that on fresh tires it is much less loose and about 4 sec a lap quicker. The wear patterns on the tires do reflect this bias, as do measured brake and tire temps. All the loads appear to be rear biased. Quite sure it can be improved - last main resort being tire stagger if the chassis is not stiff enough to make use of spring stagger (see below).
Seems underdamped in roll. There's been unconfirmed talk about how chassis isn't very stiff so acting like an undamped torsion spring. Might be just the dampers, damper setup, driver, kinematics, or just inherent to low mass short wheelbase?. Looking forward to getting one myself and finding out through a nice sensor array and doing some development just for fun. Right now there are enough seriously interested drivers to share a few atoms.
I've seen videos of many atoms that are much less nervous, some even pushing big power over 500hp. So it's definitely possible to get them settled. Just not sure how settled together with fast it can be. Will try
All the above may be wrong though... it's all just based on 4 test laps across which I had not familiarized completely with the car, some talk and research.
Most importantly for a non competition car, it is fun to drive because of the challenge. Probably the most fun vehicle I've ever driven on a car track. Shifter karts take overall first place though for me. Atom is fast too, and there's lots of space to make it a lot faster with tons of aftermarket powertrain and wheel/tire damper options. Low weight, low consumption, low running cost. I have looked for a few years and haven't found anything as fun, cheap, reliable, with lots of aftermarket options.
When the Atom first was released, I viewed it as kind of a toy because of certain things they did with the control arms, rockers, pushrods, uprights, etc. but since then a number of aftermarket companies have stepped with upgraded and redesigned components. Still it is true the atom is no formula 2.0. It still is much faster than all other roadcars, many other trackcars, FUN, reliable (Ken has more than proven this in local climate), very cheap to run especially relative to other cars in the same time range, or even other trackcars.
Anyone want to get an atom too? Let's target 10 drivers, 5 atoms, economies of scale in shared insured storage, insured towing, spares, mechanics, etc. We've already got more than 70% of those drivers confirmed. We can start a small league and do a few races a year.
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
Here's a short cut and paste of the benefits that I wrote elsewhere:
No bodywork to damage
So simple that mechanical service providers can't corner you
Parts suppliers cannot corner you (Honda powertrain)
Small and light enough to tow around on a small trailer via SUV
Practical ride height eases towing
Honda powertrain reliability
Low mass, low consumption, low running cost (lower than even Japanese sportscars)
Lap nonstop, no fade
All this yet 2:20 capable, quicker if lightly modified
Must buy!
There are 2 for sale locally, and many more can be imported from the UK or US for about the same price. Just some paperwork and lead time. Who's up for it?
Here's a short cut and paste of the benefits that I wrote elsewhere:
No bodywork to damage
So simple that mechanical service providers can't corner you
Parts suppliers cannot corner you (Honda powertrain)
Small and light enough to tow around on a small trailer via SUV
Practical ride height eases towing
Honda powertrain reliability
Low mass, low consumption, low running cost (lower than even Japanese sportscars)
Lap nonstop, no fade
All this yet 2:20 capable, quicker if lightly modified
Must buy!
There are 2 for sale locally, and many more can be imported from the UK or US for about the same price. Just some paperwork and lead time. Who's up for it?
AC Schnitzer
Well-Known Member
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
Guess I hopped on the Bandwagon a little late.
Great video footage. Neatly driven. I'll just have to say having driven a true blue stock S2000 (not the kind where I have hidden strokers, cams, coilovers, etc. but I-don't-tell-you-kind) at the track many years ago, there is an immense amount of driver satisfaction.
Back in the days if I stuffed up a corner in the Evo, I could simply get on the gas and still look good in front of spectators. With NAs, the penalty is far greater if you didn't already carry enough corner speed to make up for the top end at the straights. This factor prompts me to drive and push harder then I did in the Evo.
This was probably 7 years ago and today I still recall driving on Barbagallo Raceway in which I was able to give 100% gas through the Esses, trail brake into the uphill left hand sweeper (Shell Corner), unload the rear with a very gentle and progressive neutral oversteer, steering wheel was straight with the nose pointing at the exit and all I needed to do was to gently get on the gas till 100%, rear grip slowly comes back on with a slight drop in RPM in the midst.
You can't fault driver fulfillment in the S2000. Really great fun.
What I reckon would be a great idea Shaun is that this youtube clip can be pinned on Track FAQ/Newbies if it haven't already been done. I reckon this is a great way for newbies to absorb the track layout prior driving at SIC.
Guess I hopped on the Bandwagon a little late.
Great video footage. Neatly driven. I'll just have to say having driven a true blue stock S2000 (not the kind where I have hidden strokers, cams, coilovers, etc. but I-don't-tell-you-kind) at the track many years ago, there is an immense amount of driver satisfaction.
Back in the days if I stuffed up a corner in the Evo, I could simply get on the gas and still look good in front of spectators. With NAs, the penalty is far greater if you didn't already carry enough corner speed to make up for the top end at the straights. This factor prompts me to drive and push harder then I did in the Evo.
This was probably 7 years ago and today I still recall driving on Barbagallo Raceway in which I was able to give 100% gas through the Esses, trail brake into the uphill left hand sweeper (Shell Corner), unload the rear with a very gentle and progressive neutral oversteer, steering wheel was straight with the nose pointing at the exit and all I needed to do was to gently get on the gas till 100%, rear grip slowly comes back on with a slight drop in RPM in the midst.
You can't fault driver fulfillment in the S2000. Really great fun.
What I reckon would be a great idea Shaun is that this youtube clip can be pinned on Track FAQ/Newbies if it haven't already been done. I reckon this is a great way for newbies to absorb the track layout prior driving at SIC.
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
Thanks and yes, stock car is great. My roadcar is an AP2, and still stock cept for oil cooler and brake pads, lines, fluid, ducts. You're welcome to have a go in it at SIC when you start tracking locally mate.
And you probably drove the AP1 which I hear is more of a challenge to drive vs AP2. I'm so bored and it is so lonely when just about everyone in the S2K club here jumps straight to parts within a couple months of getting their cars. Suddenly there's 50K in parts on the car. Or in one case.. over 100K, for barely 6 seconds improvement in laptime over the stock car.
They never appreciate the stock car, because they never take it near limits on the track. Diff strokes for diff folks yes, but then there's so much talk about how the stock car is lacking in this and that area. Maybe, but at least get to within 0.5 - 1% of verified target before trying to improve it. Learn more that way, appreciate what you do better too.
AC Schnitzer;685048 said:
Thanks and yes, stock car is great. My roadcar is an AP2, and still stock cept for oil cooler and brake pads, lines, fluid, ducts. You're welcome to have a go in it at SIC when you start tracking locally mate.
And you probably drove the AP1 which I hear is more of a challenge to drive vs AP2. I'm so bored and it is so lonely when just about everyone in the S2K club here jumps straight to parts within a couple months of getting their cars. Suddenly there's 50K in parts on the car. Or in one case.. over 100K, for barely 6 seconds improvement in laptime over the stock car.
They never appreciate the stock car, because they never take it near limits on the track. Diff strokes for diff folks yes, but then there's so much talk about how the stock car is lacking in this and that area. Maybe, but at least get to within 0.5 - 1% of verified target before trying to improve it. Learn more that way, appreciate what you do better too.
For that you have to ask Shawn or Ryan. I don't know what criteria determine what is pinned or not. The great corner weighting thread started by Gerald81 was pinned, but later unpinned at some point, dunno why.
AC Schnitzer
Well-Known Member
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
Yup it was the AP1. Not exactly well versed with Honda but I recall AP2 launched quite late in Australia compared to other regions. We always get the short end of the stick. But in any case I was told some revisions were made to AP2 suspension.
I have not driven the AP2 and this was many years ago, however the feedback I received from AP1 was that the rear end is quite unforgiving. I did recall a couple of times the corner entry speed was a little higher than I would've liked and the rear broke out. Still manageable, the rear broke out progressively. Traction also came back progressively. I must admit I may have been driving in AWD mindset which is causing all these handling gremlins.
I guess I experienced a bigger difference coming from AWD turbo to RWD NA. On tighter road course specifically less gripper surface where dirt is spewed by drivers cutting the apex, it wasn't so much of a challenge in the Evo as you power out. With the S2000, it demanded more discipline and challenge. That challenge makes driving the S2000 less mundane and I really like that.
I reckon once in a while, its good to drive a completely stock car. Suddenly turn in response, power, brakes all thrown out the window and you either adapt or cry foul. Good training.
I actually thought that write up was of value and quite informative, definitely deserved to be stickied.
By the way, I'm organising a mini Gokart session with Jyoji probably after F1.
Drop me a PM if you or Arthur are keen to catch up over drinks or perhaps enjoy a few laughs at our expense while we take on kartright.
Yup it was the AP1. Not exactly well versed with Honda but I recall AP2 launched quite late in Australia compared to other regions. We always get the short end of the stick. But in any case I was told some revisions were made to AP2 suspension.
I have not driven the AP2 and this was many years ago, however the feedback I received from AP1 was that the rear end is quite unforgiving. I did recall a couple of times the corner entry speed was a little higher than I would've liked and the rear broke out. Still manageable, the rear broke out progressively. Traction also came back progressively. I must admit I may have been driving in AWD mindset which is causing all these handling gremlins.
I guess I experienced a bigger difference coming from AWD turbo to RWD NA. On tighter road course specifically less gripper surface where dirt is spewed by drivers cutting the apex, it wasn't so much of a challenge in the Evo as you power out. With the S2000, it demanded more discipline and challenge. That challenge makes driving the S2000 less mundane and I really like that.
I reckon once in a while, its good to drive a completely stock car. Suddenly turn in response, power, brakes all thrown out the window and you either adapt or cry foul. Good training.
I actually thought that write up was of value and quite informative, definitely deserved to be stickied.
By the way, I'm organising a mini Gokart session with Jyoji probably after F1.
Drop me a PM if you or Arthur are keen to catch up over drinks or perhaps enjoy a few laughs at our expense while we take on kartright.
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
Oh you know Jyoji eh? Come on there'll be no laughing.. just glad to see more people actually race and have fun in a wider range of truly high performance vehicles other than the few that some put too narrow a focus on.
Actually why don't we do rentals and racekarts on the same day? Come try our racekarts. If you like really intense high load high precision driving, then once you try racekarts there's just no going back to anything short of a high level LMP or Formula car
===
Your point about AWD is quite true. There are a number of drivers who've never driven anything other than AWDs, big power too, running some quick laptimes, held in awe by many. I always say put them in a raw RWD (Exige, s2k, or even mx5), electronics (if any) all off, and then have them drive it and be compared to the whole community... see where they end up. Not that they can't be fast, but it won't be anything extraordinary - or at least the same ratio of the drivers will be special, as it is with the general sport driver population.
Oh you know Jyoji eh? Come on there'll be no laughing.. just glad to see more people actually race and have fun in a wider range of truly high performance vehicles other than the few that some put too narrow a focus on.
Actually why don't we do rentals and racekarts on the same day? Come try our racekarts. If you like really intense high load high precision driving, then once you try racekarts there's just no going back to anything short of a high level LMP or Formula car
===
Your point about AWD is quite true. There are a number of drivers who've never driven anything other than AWDs, big power too, running some quick laptimes, held in awe by many. I always say put them in a raw RWD (Exige, s2k, or even mx5), electronics (if any) all off, and then have them drive it and be compared to the whole community... see where they end up. Not that they can't be fast, but it won't be anything extraordinary - or at least the same ratio of the drivers will be special, as it is with the general sport driver population.
Last edited by a moderator:
AC Schnitzer
Well-Known Member
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
Yup, party animal that guy. I hope he's not reading this. Doing his utmost to get me drunk the night before I was due to catch up with you and Arthur that Sunday morning.
Yup, its no surprise Evos hold the record times at Barbagallo Raceway. Driving AWD for too long can be a bad thing. Sometimes you get wrapped in this Cocoon thinking you're immune to other variables. I know I did, at times, which I'm not too proud to say.
Had a driver driven the same way they did in anything other than AWD, the results would have been quite different. Most of the time this is actually true. Some of the time, this AWD business gets abused. I recall in the past 2 years there were 2 complete write offs involving 2 Evo 8s.
Driver A lifted off throttle on a dip through the Esses. Spun into the wall. That was his 1st day of ownership...
Driver B's mindset was flawed. A previously experienced driver ran wide, clipped the kerb and continued.
Driver B tried to emulate, drove right on top of the kerb (easily 1ft+), tried to get back on track at full throttle, naturally the kerb unsettled the car and full throttle didn't help, spin sideways first into dirt which then dug deep and rolled the car 5 times. Driver in so much shock that he was still flooring the throttle at 100% for another 3 seconds after the car has stopped rolling. Car caught fire and that mandatory 1kilo fire extinguisher really didn't do a damn thing. I still have the in-car video and photos on that one. Driver was ok apart from whiplash but helmet had some form of crack.
I was there and saw the car rolled 5 times with my own eyes, landing upside down about 3-5 metres from the pitwall of the Control Tower and I'd be lying if I said I didn't felt sick right after that incident.
This isn't about "oh you're such a pro you should be in F1, criticising other people's mistakes and all" but rather the key lessons to take away is that I hope people do not buy/hop into an AWD layout and instantly think they're going to be immune to any accidents. Driving an AWD doesn't mean you have Captain Kirk's invisible shield.
It is always in human nature to wait for something terrible to happen before showing a little respect to their vehicles. I know I did in my much earlier days aquaplaning but luckily for me it was on a skidpan with no stationary topographical objects.
I think what we have here may be a case of obsession with laptimes. There is this misconception that great laptimes = talent. If the car gets you great laptimes, stay in that car/comfort zone.
The drivers with a positive mindset isn't afraid of stepping out of their comfort zone/fast car and hop into slower cars of different layout and compete for class win assuming the opportunity is there.
Think I've gone very off topic from what was supposed to be about your video clip. I'll talk to you via PM about that gokart trackday.
Yup, party animal that guy. I hope he's not reading this.
Doing his utmost to get me drunk the night before I was due to catch up with you and Arthur that Sunday morning. Yup, its no surprise Evos hold the record times at Barbagallo Raceway. Driving AWD for too long can be a bad thing. Sometimes you get wrapped in this Cocoon thinking you're immune to other variables. I know I did, at times, which I'm not too proud to say.
Had a driver driven the same way they did in anything other than AWD, the results would have been quite different. Most of the time this is actually true. Some of the time, this AWD business gets abused. I recall in the past 2 years there were 2 complete write offs involving 2 Evo 8s.
Driver A lifted off throttle on a dip through the Esses. Spun into the wall. That was his 1st day of ownership...
Driver B's mindset was flawed. A previously experienced driver ran wide, clipped the kerb and continued.
Driver B tried to emulate, drove right on top of the kerb (easily 1ft+), tried to get back on track at full throttle, naturally the kerb unsettled the car and full throttle didn't help, spin sideways first into dirt which then dug deep and rolled the car 5 times. Driver in so much shock that he was still flooring the throttle at 100% for another 3 seconds after the car has stopped rolling. Car caught fire and that mandatory 1kilo fire extinguisher really didn't do a damn thing. I still have the in-car video and photos on that one. Driver was ok apart from whiplash but helmet had some form of crack.
I was there and saw the car rolled 5 times with my own eyes, landing upside down about 3-5 metres from the pitwall of the Control Tower and I'd be lying if I said I didn't felt sick right after that incident.
This isn't about "oh you're such a pro you should be in F1, criticising other people's mistakes and all" but rather the key lessons to take away is that I hope people do not buy/hop into an AWD layout and instantly think they're going to be immune to any accidents. Driving an AWD doesn't mean you have Captain Kirk's invisible shield.
It is always in human nature to wait for something terrible to happen before showing a little respect to their vehicles. I know I did in my much earlier days aquaplaning but luckily for me it was on a skidpan with no stationary topographical objects.
I think what we have here may be a case of obsession with laptimes. There is this misconception that great laptimes = talent. If the car gets you great laptimes, stay in that car/comfort zone.
The drivers with a positive mindset isn't afraid of stepping out of their comfort zone/fast car and hop into slower cars of different layout and compete for class win assuming the opportunity is there.
Think I've gone very off topic from what was supposed to be about your video clip. I'll talk to you via PM about that gokart trackday.
Elite
Well-Known Member
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
Lol .... hope the old '88' qualifies eh
=============================
Yes, lets pull some Gs together ! Every Sunday AM
Shaun;685449 said:
Lol .... hope the old '88' qualifies eh
=============================
Shaun;685449 said:.... Actually why don't we do rentals and racekarts on the same day? Come try our racekarts. If you like really intense high load high precision driving, then once you try racekarts there's just no going back to anything short of a high level LMP or Formula car
AC Schnitzer;685420 said:
Yes, lets pull some Gs together ! Every Sunday AM
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
Honda NSX and Civic Type R confirmed by Honda CEO
NSX & TypeR are back!
Honda NSX and Civic Type R confirmed by Honda CEO
NSX & TypeR are back!
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
u talking about me u potato speaking dataface
Shaun;685449 said:Oh you know Jyoji eh? Come on there'll be no laughing.. just glad to see more people actually race and have fun in a wider range of truly high performance vehicles other than the few that some put too narrow a focus on.
Actually why don't we do rentals and racekarts on the same day? Come try our racekarts. If you like really intense high load high precision driving, then once you try racekarts there's just no going back to anything short of a high level LMP or Formula car
===
Your point about AWD is quite true. There are a number of drivers who've never driven anything other than AWDs, big power too, running some quick laptimes, held in awe by many. I always say put them in a raw RWD (Exige, s2k, or even mx5), electronics (if any) all off, and then have them drive it and be compared to the whole community... see where they end up. Not that they can't be fast, but it won't be anything extraordinary - or at least the same ratio of the drivers will be special, as it is with the general sport driver population.
u talking about me u potato speaking dataface
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
Definitely, and as you and others are discovering, just as all who really try hard at karting, it's not easy at all to get to the limit and hold it across, 20, 30 laps. Way more difficult than all full size, full weight cars except silhouette cars which are much closer to formula and prototype cars, far away from what they look like.
Your ex BMW and Maser were RWD right.. current car too.. and electronics can be turned off yes So how can it be you? You've also stated openly some humble truths. The ones I'm referring to wouldn't be caught dead saying things like that. They also refuse to drive anything other than cars that have no benchmark (due to spec), and who talk a lot of BS. Either they're completely ignorant, or really cunning.
New NSX should be lovely. Lower weight, lower power, higher efficiency car to take down the rest.. just like the first NSX. Can't wait to see it.
Elite;685748 said:Lol .... hope the old '88' qualifies eh
Definitely, and as you and others are discovering, just as all who really try hard at karting, it's not easy at all to get to the limit and hold it across, 20, 30 laps. Way more difficult than all full size, full weight cars except silhouette cars which are much closer to formula and prototype cars, far away from what they look like.
totoseow;686382 said:
Your ex BMW and Maser were RWD right.. current car too.. and electronics can be turned off yes
So how can it be you? You've also stated openly some humble truths. The ones I'm referring to wouldn't be caught dead saying things like that. They also refuse to drive anything other than cars that have no benchmark (due to spec), and who talk a lot of BS. Either they're completely ignorant, or really cunning. golfgti;686367 said:
New NSX should be lovely. Lower weight, lower power, higher efficiency car to take down the rest.. just like the first NSX. Can't wait to see it.
Re: Dataface returns to S2000 roots...
Ey don't pull a Harold leh How is it you guys hop from from peaks to troughs and back to peaks in a matter of months?
What are you thinking when you get all fired up to do 12 TDs a year, vs when you lose motivation? What motivates you in terms of driving? This should make for an interesting thread of its own.
Technically correct I guess, cos your immediate family counts as "many"
Excellent.. welcome to the step up! See you soon..
totoseow;686555 said:
Ey don't pull a Harold leh
How is it you guys hop from from peaks to troughs and back to peaks in a matter of months? What are you thinking when you get all fired up to do 12 TDs a year, vs when you lose motivation? What motivates you in terms of driving? This should make for an interesting thread of its own.
jwwu;686584 said:
Technically correct I guess, cos your immediate family counts as "many"
Excellent.. welcome to the step up! See you soon..
