E90 323i vs. 325i

[acupunch]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

nv compare any R car from Honda with any other normal road car. When a Honda bare the R badge. it mean ///M in BMW contacts. its their flagship product line. the best of its range. try putting ///M3 with Civic Type R also not good comparison. cos both are make for different purpose.

Honda or majority JDM are experts in tuning in-line 4. BHP & FC to its best. But BMW is famous for their work on an in-line 6. it make it so perfect that its the best. if you like bhp, I think you'll not find an equivalent from a continental made. with 100K+/- you can get 224bhp from a Civic Type R with all the BBK, Recaro seats, robust 6-speed manual, ultra good handling out of the box for FF car, great weight distribution, track ready, only question can you control the car to its optimum.

every car had its strength and weakness. majority buy a BMW 323 or 325 its for the in-line 6, cos its sweet. and many engine mods available, depending how deep can dig you accounts. if you had fix your mind on a BMW, just comparing with model that fits your bills more. every 20K more you will be looking at another range of cars in BMW. is never ending stories.

 

[centurion]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

mrericlee, you are quoting one of Honda's best. And Honda is already the world's biggest and best engine manufacturer. You are comparing the best against BMW.

The power of the EuroR is unlocked only at high revs, and if the BMW engine could be revved so high it would produce a similar power level too. Unfortunately it cant, because the Honda engine was designed with almost blueprinted levels of tolerances and with high revvability as a design aim, with both strength and lightness built into it.

BMW has shown that it can make high specific output engines if it wanted, see the M engines.

 

[piggyboyz]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

The 323 and 325 shares the same engine and same intake manifold, however the 325 runs at much higher compression ratio. I supposed this is possible through different engine mapping by giving more intake and exhaust valve overlap, thereby reducing the engine compression.

This is supposed to be the most economical way competing with the rival rather than having another engine like what they did for the E46.

That said, it doesn't mean that an simple re-programming can bring back the additional horsepower. All other E90 in the stable has got a max revv of 7000rpm but the 323 max out at 6500. Till date, I have not seen any aftermarket tuners being able to shift the redline for the automatic gearbox. Even if they manage to do for the engine mapping, the transmission map would have intervene and upshift the car to the next higher gears.

Given the 2 cars at 20k difference, it should be worth it cos the iDrive alone is 10k.

Also, if u r not in the rush, wait, cos there are times when they bring in 325i w/o iDrive with considerable discount.

The other consideration would be that the facelift is on it's way and expect the change to be around Mar 08, where the DI engine would replace the Valvetronic engine and the 323 would have same hp as the FL 523.

 

[kurqa]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

The other consideration would be that the facelift is on it's way and expect the change to be around Mar 08, where the DI engine would replace the Valvetronic engine and the 323 would have same hp as the FL 523.

SWEE LAH...thank you for the good news!!!

 

[IntegraTypeS]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

we need to differentiate btw the Asia/Europe vs North America mkt

E90 325 differences
In Asia/Europe, we are lucky to get this award winning N52B25 block
In NA, they get the detuned N52B30 block also giving the same power

Key diffferences; Asian N52B25 shares the same components with the N52B30 in the 330, which means multi-stage intake manifold(3 stage to be exact), hollow camshafts, ECU(compression), exhuast and tyranny. The only difference is the boresize.

Now by removing the above goodies from the N52B30 and replaced with the single stage manifold and etc.... you get a N52B30 pumping out 40 horses less, equivalent to an Asian N52B25...

Using the same strategy, removing all the these items from the Asian N52B25, you get the 323 N52, again pumping out 40horses less...

 

[IntegraTypeS]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

The bhp ratings for BMW's seem very low but 1-100km/h seems ok.

323i has 177bhp - 2.5L in-line 6 @ 8.8 sec
325i has 218bhp - 2.5L in-line 6 @ 7.7 sec

The Accord EuroR can achieve 220bhp with only 2L NA engine.

BMW building low bhp engines?

Hi, both BMW and Honda achieved the highest bhp/cc ratio in NA engines

what u use for comparison is not correct... the Euro R should be compared to the M class... both are highly tuned engines... they do give similar bhp/cc output ... >1.1

323/325 should be compared to the KM accord/JDM accord

KM accord has 160bhp - 2.4L 4 pot (K24A2)
JDM accord has 200bhp - 2.4L 4 pot (K24A)

you see, they are very similiar... we are talking abt the best 2 makers of NA engines... try comparing another make (exception maybe Alfa Romeo, they are quite good too)

 

[acupunch]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

IntergraTypeS, when you said 'we' need to differentiate btw the Asia/Europe vs North America mkt.

I assume you're working in PML or BMW Asia. Any fact sheet to support your insight about the engine? I'm novice, just knew abt 4IL or 6IL. Didn't know BMW like Honda, like to play with their engine block to customise for different market segment. e.g. Euro tuned called Civic Type-R and Japan tuned called ORIGINAL REAL Type-R.

 

[piggyboyz]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

we need to differentiate btw the Asia/Europe vs North America mkt

E90 325 differences
In Asia/Europe, we are lucky to get this award winning N52B25 block
In NA, they get the detuned N52B30 block also giving the same power

Key diffferences; Asian N52B25 shares the same components with the N52B30 in the 330, which means multi-stage intake manifold(3 stage to be exact), hollow camshafts, ECU(compression), exhuast and tyranny. The only difference is the boresize.

Now by removing the above goodies from the N52B30 and replaced with the single stage manifold and etc.... you get a N52B30 pumping out 40 horses less, equivalent to an Asian N52B25...

Using the same strategy, removing all the these items from the Asian N52B25, you get the 323 N52, again pumping out 40horses less...

I think u need to decouple between Europe and US.

The statement that you said 2.5L and 30L shares the same component is wrong ! The bore and stroke of the 2 engine is different. By having different bore, the engine block is already different. By having different stroke, the crankshaft must be different ! Also, only 330i is on 3 stage manifold, the rest r on 2 stage, not single stage. Since E36, the IL6 is already on 2 stage intake manifold.

Also, if u do a search on the engine parts, u will realised that the 323 and the 325 shares identical parts from intake to exhaust. The diff here is only the rev limiter that restrict on the 323 and the de-compression of the engine. Together with lesser spec, they sell the car cheaper, purely for marketing against their rival in selected market.

Those who flip the E90 brochure may realised that there isn't mention of 323i at all.

Cheers

 

[IntegraTypeS]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

I think u need to decouple between Europe and US.

The statement that you said 2.5L and 30L shares the same component is wrong ! The bore and stroke of the 2 engine is different. By having different bore, the engine block is already different. By having different stroke, the crankshaft must be different ! Also, only 330i is on 3 stage manifold, the rest r on 2 stage, not single stage. Since E36, the IL6 is already on 2 stage intake manifold.

Also, if u do a search on the engine parts, u will realised that the 323 and the 325 shares identical parts from intake to exhaust. The diff here is only the rev limiter that restrict on the 323 and the de-compression of the engine. Together with lesser spec, they sell the car cheaper, purely for marketing against their rival in selected market.

Those who flip the E90 brochure may realised that there isn't mention of 323i at all.

Cheers

Maybe a slight correction on my side, 325's N52B25 has all the goodies (not same components) as in 3 stage manifold (with DISA actuators), SW settings(same ECU actually) , exhaust flaps, etc. I did state that they have a diffierent bore, think of it as a smaller N52B30M1. its just a matter of interpretation, to some N52 is 1 engine block type, some consider more laterally, as in boresize, different is different liao. Your take, i;m more inclined towards N52 design is 1 engine block type.

The N52 with the above 2 exceptions, all have single stage intake manifold( they have only 1 constant length runner) Its true earlier IL-6 series like the M54 has 2 stage.

In NA (as in Naturally Aspirated) engines, would you see a 40HP gain just by tuning ECU or compression ratio or up the rev limit alone? Do the figures, its a 20% increase in engine output with no force induction.

Newer brochure have , some countries that have 323... Japan/Canada

 

[eNerGy]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

So, how to urgrade a 323i to 325i? (besides changing the car)

Any tuners in Spore or M'sia can do it. I heard Obemier in Jln Ipoh, KL can do it. ECU must be MVS70 to do it. MVS80 is not programmable.

Anyone heard of that?

regards

 

[GeekinE90]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

I think u need to decouple between Europe and US.

Also, if u do a search on the engine parts, u will realised that the 323 and the 325 shares identical parts from intake to exhaust. The diff here is only the rev limiter that restrict on the 323 and the de-compression of the engine. Together with lesser spec, they sell the car cheaper, purely for marketing against their rival in selected market.

Engine characteristics also differs. Peak torque for the 330i and 325i is at 2750 rpms which is very low for an N/A car. The 323i peak torque is higher up the rev range @3500 rpms which is similar to the previous generation M54 peak torque. If you look at the generations of 6 pot BMWs, BMW is not really making a whole lot of effort in giving you more peak HP but seems to be putting in some effort in bringing down the peak torque rpms. M50->M52->M52TU->M54->N52

Energy is right. With the N52B25 can be tuned and remaped to give up to 231hp. But you'll need an MVS70 ECU (05-07). The tuners havent figured out how to hack the MVS80 (07- 08 ) ECU yet.

I've done a 0-140 km/h drag with a E92 323i with the N52B25 rated at 190 hp. Its not far off from the stock 325i. Up to 140 about ~1-2 car lengths behind only. Haven't tried with a 177hp 323i. Energy next time you come to KL, we'll go for a test run

 

[satines]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

Engine characteristics also differs. Peak torque for the 330i and 325i is at 2750 rpms which is very low for an N/A car. The 323i peak torque is higher up the rev range @3500 rpms which is similar to the previous generation M54 peak torque. If you look at the generations of 6 pot BMWs, BMW is not really making a whole lot of effort in giving you more peak HP but seems to be putting in some effort in bringing down the peak torque rpms. M50->M52->M52TU->M54->N52

Energy is right. With the N52B25 can be tuned and remaped to give up to 231hp. But you'll need an MVS70 ECU (05-07). The tuners havent figured out how to hack the MVS80 (07- 08 ) ECU yet.

I've done a 0-140 km/h drag with a E92 323i with the N52B25 rated at 190 hp. Its not far off from the stock 325i. Up to 140 about ~1-2 car lengths behind only. Haven't tried with a 177hp 323i. Energy next time you come to KL, we'll go for a test run

Are you saying even the N52 on 323i can be remapped? where??

 

[delrosa81]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

My car will most prob be a total loss case, so I am thinking of getting either the new C200 Kompressor or the 323......getting the 323 like not much difference but c200 interior very nice. Awaiting my case verdict....sighz.....

 

[GeekinE90]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

Are you saying even the N52 on 323i can be remapped? where??

Yes it can if the car is shod with the MVS70 ECU. Obermaier in KL off Jln Ipoh. They are using a HIOP tune and the original map is downloaded from your ECU sent to germany and remaped, then sent back to you to upload back to your ECU. You can get a straight 231hp with this re-map. Look for Freddie there, first thing he'll do is inspect your ECU to ensure that its feasible. Doesn't cost you anything for him to check for you, and if its feasible, I think its worth the $$$ to unlock the potential of the artificially restricted N52B25. The charges are around RM3-4k for the re-map.

 

[eNerGy]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

Any tuner in Spore can do this HIOP ECU remap?
How come the Malaysians can do it? ECU remap and produce 231 bhp?! Are they smarter?

 

[Deadkookaburra]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

how to compare EuroR to a BMW...u slam the door already sianz 1/2

 

[Juan Powerblow]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

I just heard that HIOP can now hack into the MVS-80 / MVS-81 ECU to do the remap for 323i and 335i. Apparently, the former can go up to 231 bhp while the 335i can be re-mapped to churn out 350 bhp.

Like Energy and GeekyE90, I would really like to hear some personal experience on this upgrade. I drive an E92 323i in Kay El.

 

[MaVrk]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

WOW!! 177hp for e90 323 to 231hp is a jump of 50hp by a mere hiop remap. If this is possible, i'll say screw my warranty, and i'll go for this upgrade man. hahahaha, 50hp i seriousy worth voiding my warranty for this upgrade. I reckon mayb its for an e90 325 with 218HP to 231HP lah, thus making it a 13HP increase by a remap.

I also kinda read from somewhere e90 post that a 323 is only 1-stage in singapore, not the 3 stage manifold tat a 325 has.

I think some of our local tuners state that they can only push it up by 10-15% thru HIOP remap.

Can anyone confirm that this malaysian tuner can do such wonders?

 

[stevenwu]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

Hi,
I used to drive a e46 323i with 2.5l m52TU engine spec 170bhp. By just changing the restricted intake air-box similar to 325i, I could achieved about 190bhp from 177bhp. (Dyno tested).

For e46, both 323i and 325i have the same torque value of 245Nm at around 3k+ rpm so by letting the engine able to breath better at high rpm, extra gain in torque at high rpm, you get extra hp. Both having the same 2 stages intake system.

As for e90 series, just look at the intake, if there is a flip valve, then it is dual stage, this valve flip between long and short intake air channel when transiting between low to high rpm for best torque number.

also is the e90 series 323 and 325, are they having the same peak torque number ?

 

[TobyNik]

Re: E90 323i vs. 325i

Hi,
I used to drive a e46 323i with 2.5l m52TU engine spec 170bhp. By just changing the restricted intake air-box similar to 325i, I could achieved about 190bhp from 177bhp. (Dyno tested).

For e46, both 323i and 325i have the same torque value of 245Nm at around 3k+ rpm so by letting the engine able to breath better at high rpm, extra gain in torque at high rpm, you get extra hp. Both having the same 2 stages intake system.

As for e90 series, just look at the intake, if there is a flip valve, then it is dual stage, this valve flip between long and short intake air channel when transiting between low to high rpm for best torque number.

also is the e90 series 323 and 325, are they having the same peak torque number ?

Brudder

You helping me do research ah??? I checked liao, re-map can only give my 190bhp some 18bhp increase.....no hardware mods.

$1k + to do....worth it ??? depends on individuals ya?