FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
- Thread starter pingman
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Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
hi,
just a few questions.
what are the paper specs for your e65?
what are the proposed gains achievable from hiop remap.?
why was it necessary to solder, components ??
do we really need to run in the engine with this new map before dyno?
only after dyno will you know value for money or not...butt feel not accurate one.
eagerly await your dyno charts..thanks
hi,
just a few questions.
what are the paper specs for your e65?
what are the proposed gains achievable from hiop remap.?
why was it necessary to solder, components ??
do we really need to run in the engine with this new map before dyno?
only after dyno will you know value for money or not...butt feel not accurate one.
eagerly await your dyno charts..thanks
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
Capacity in cc = 2996
Max Output (KW/bhp/rpm) = 190 / 258 / 6600 .......... [actual pre-dyno is 249.6bhp @ 6500rpm]
Max Torque (Nm/rpm) = 300 / 2500 .......................... [actual pre dyno is 317.2Nm @ 2500rpm]
Fuel Consumption Overall (l/100km) 10.1
Top Speed in km/h = 244
Acceleration 0-100 Km/h (sec) = 7.9
Unladen Weight (kg) = 1910
Max Permissible Weight (kg) = 2415
Cylinders/Valves = 6/4sds;143915 said:
Capacity in cc = 2996
Max Output (KW/bhp/rpm) = 190 / 258 / 6600 .......... [actual pre-dyno is 249.6bhp @ 6500rpm]
Max Torque (Nm/rpm) = 300 / 2500 .......................... [actual pre dyno is 317.2Nm @ 2500rpm]
Fuel Consumption Overall (l/100km) 10.1
Top Speed in km/h = 244
Acceleration 0-100 Km/h (sec) = 7.9
Unladen Weight (kg) = 1910
Max Permissible Weight (kg) = 2415
According to HIOP, it is about 20-30 hp. I am very amazed by this suggested proposed number. that is the reason i went ahead with my ride. lets just hope it is true after post-dyno.sds;143915 said:
In actual fact, dont have to solder. it optional.sds;143915 said:
good question. i just do what i was told by J4C amos to run in to allow ECU processor to get use to the new programming then dyno more accurate.sds;143915 said:
i agree that butt feel not accurate, so if any experts here can confirm dont need run-in like what i was told for 1000km, i will get post-dyno done in no time. will also watch the fuel comsumption too...sds;143915 said:
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
Hi. Did post dyno this afternoon. results are as attached.
post-dyno show 254.7 HP @ 6500rpm and 334.87Nm torque @ 3000rpm.
I need unbias expert comment on whether there is something gain or not and also whether this HIOP mod is worthy or not based on the result shown.
Hi. Did post dyno this afternoon. results are as attached.
post-dyno show 254.7 HP @ 6500rpm and 334.87Nm torque @ 3000rpm.
I need unbias expert comment on whether there is something gain or not and also whether this HIOP mod is worthy or not based on the result shown.
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
The results sound about right, if slightly low, for the 3.0. The engine is already quite highly tuned. The improvements for the 523i is much better since the 2.5 is a detuned version of that found in the 525i. Even then Hiop still cannot get the same hp as the 525i.
The results sound about right, if slightly low, for the 3.0. The engine is already quite highly tuned. The improvements for the 523i is much better since the 2.5 is a detuned version of that found in the 525i. Even then Hiop still cannot get the same hp as the 525i.
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
the total hp gain is pathetic at 254hp, this number is even lesser than the stock 258hp on paper and only 5 hp from pre-dyno. even though the butt feeling is good, and is probably due to 'sprint booster' and '10Hm' more torque, i m suspecting they are not doing it right.
the gain should be same or if not 50% of what was achieved on the 523i case. in my case, its 5 hp gain only. is that 'sound right'?
any more expert opinion please.
the total hp gain is pathetic at 254hp, this number is even lesser than the stock 258hp on paper and only 5 hp from pre-dyno. even though the butt feeling is good, and is probably due to 'sprint booster' and '10Hm' more torque, i m suspecting they are not doing it right.
the gain should be same or if not 50% of what was achieved on the 523i case. in my case, its 5 hp gain only. is that 'sound right'?
any more expert opinion please.
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
well, dyno numbers will usually show variances. even if you were to dyno the same car, same day same dyno... you'll get variances of anywhere between 0-10hp (from what i've seen so far) between all your different runs.
so if you factor that in, you might have actually gained more than 5hp. on the flipside, you might have actually gained 0hp or worse, lost some power/torque.
have you talked to the nice folks at j4c and asked for a possible explanation?
also, huge gains might have been possible on the 523 because it's actually a 2.5L engine but neutered by changes in hardware and electronics. in other words, it is clear that the engine in the 523i has much more potential than what BMW dialled into it. your 3.0L however, has possibly been more or less maxed out at the factory. unless you've done significant exhaust or intake modification, realised gains from ecu tuning would most probably be of a smaller percentage.
well, dyno numbers will usually show variances. even if you were to dyno the same car, same day same dyno... you'll get variances of anywhere between 0-10hp (from what i've seen so far) between all your different runs.
so if you factor that in, you might have actually gained more than 5hp. on the flipside, you might have actually gained 0hp or worse, lost some power/torque.
have you talked to the nice folks at j4c and asked for a possible explanation?
also, huge gains might have been possible on the 523 because it's actually a 2.5L engine but neutered by changes in hardware and electronics. in other words, it is clear that the engine in the 523i has much more potential than what BMW dialled into it. your 3.0L however, has possibly been more or less maxed out at the factory. unless you've done significant exhaust or intake modification, realised gains from ecu tuning would most probably be of a smaller percentage.
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
You have to understand that manufacturer figures are only estimates.... they can't manufacture ALL their engines exactly to 258bhp..... all the figures will be around there.....
Also, power output, to a certain degree, will be based on how well your engine is run-ned in...... the 'looser' the engine, the better it will run.... that's why running in is important...... it affects the future performance of the engine..... I was told by Rob of DMS.........
I supposed maybe what you are seeing is the power at the rear wheel as opposed to the power output at the engine. As a rule of thumb, you lose about 20% of the power at the rear wheel.... so, at say, 258bph, your rear wheel should be seeing about 206bhp..... so for your rear wheel to be showing 245bhp is pretty good...... But please confirm that your tests were done at the rear wheel rather than at the engine......
pingman;144887 said:
You have to understand that manufacturer figures are only estimates.... they can't manufacture ALL their engines exactly to 258bhp..... all the figures will be around there.....
Also, power output, to a certain degree, will be based on how well your engine is run-ned in...... the 'looser' the engine, the better it will run.... that's why running in is important...... it affects the future performance of the engine..... I was told by Rob of DMS.........
I supposed maybe what you are seeing is the power at the rear wheel as opposed to the power output at the engine. As a rule of thumb, you lose about 20% of the power at the rear wheel.... so, at say, 258bph, your rear wheel should be seeing about 206bhp..... so for your rear wheel to be showing 245bhp is pretty good...... But please confirm that your tests were done at the rear wheel rather than at the engine......
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
pingman,
your predyno of 249bhp is at the crank right?
Well 1 thing I learned overall about this ECU reflashing is that figures alone are not necessarily the most important. The most important part is the curvature of your power & torque graph.
A simple example would be 2 same cars. Car A is stock while Car B (both are of the same make and model) has been chipped up. The difference in PEAK bhp is probably about 10bhp however Car B simple blows past Car A as though it had 50bhp. Why is that?
Simple. From say 2000rpm to 5000rpm the difference between power curve is approximately 30bhp. Torque has also been pushed down towards the lower revs and has been slightly increased as well.
While I'm not indicating that this is definitely your case but it does show that your torque and bhp increases the most during the range of 2250rpm to about 4750rpm. Percentile increase that is.
Therefore I presume that is the butt feel you felt when driving.
Just my personal thoughts
pingman,
your predyno of 249bhp is at the crank right?
Well 1 thing I learned overall about this ECU reflashing is that figures alone are not necessarily the most important. The most important part is the curvature of your power & torque graph.
A simple example would be 2 same cars. Car A is stock while Car B (both are of the same make and model) has been chipped up. The difference in PEAK bhp is probably about 10bhp however Car B simple blows past Car A as though it had 50bhp. Why is that?
Simple. From say 2000rpm to 5000rpm the difference between power curve is approximately 30bhp. Torque has also been pushed down towards the lower revs and has been slightly increased as well.
While I'm not indicating that this is definitely your case but it does show that your torque and bhp increases the most during the range of 2250rpm to about 4750rpm. Percentile increase that is.
Therefore I presume that is the butt feel you felt when driving.
Just my personal thoughts
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
Over short distances IMO, torque plays a more important role. At the same rpm and gear, especially in the peak range 2500-4000, the chipped car will outrun the stock. This is because more torque means higher acceleration, whereas more hp means higher terminal speed.
Over short distances IMO, torque plays a more important role. At the same rpm and gear, especially in the peak range 2500-4000, the chipped car will outrun the stock. This is because more torque means higher acceleration, whereas more hp means higher terminal speed.
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
greg: dyno was done on the rear wheels.
as i said the butt feel was there because of the torque at 2500-3000. drivability is there no doubt. however, the horsepower gain for the price and the impression of the gains of 20hp+ is not there. i make me wonder how come this is not made clear in the first place. really puzzle? and in this case, a 5hp is definitely 'interesting'. (or like louis said, it maybe 0 hp totally for the price paid)
i m not a tuner expert, hope someone can help understand how come a remap can be like that.
and if possible, post the rest of 630i 3.0L remapped pre/post-dyno chart for discussion here.
greg: dyno was done on the rear wheels.
as i said the butt feel was there because of the torque at 2500-3000. drivability is there no doubt. however, the horsepower gain for the price and the impression of the gains of 20hp+ is not there. i make me wonder how come this is not made clear in the first place. really puzzle? and in this case, a 5hp is definitely 'interesting'. (or like louis said, it maybe 0 hp totally for the price paid)
i m not a tuner expert, hope someone can help understand how come a remap can be like that.
and if possible, post the rest of 630i 3.0L remapped pre/post-dyno chart for discussion here.
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
the dyno is at the rear wheel. they took out the 2 rear wheels and stick 2 machine into where the wheels are supposed to be.
so do u mean that is the right way to read the graph. i was told by the dyno guy that i gain only 249 to 254 bhp but gain on the torque about 20Nm on ave. insist that i get the tuner to explain more.
i m also not sure if this is my case - that is why i m looking for opinion on how to read this dyno graph?
rex7_vtec;144915 said:
the dyno is at the rear wheel. they took out the 2 rear wheels and stick 2 machine into where the wheels are supposed to be.
rex7_vtec;144915 said:
so do u mean that is the right way to read the graph. i was told by the dyno guy that i gain only 249 to 254 bhp but gain on the torque about 20Nm on ave. insist that i get the tuner to explain more.
i m also not sure if this is my case - that is why i m looking for opinion on how to read this dyno graph?
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
Hi pingman,
honestly your dyno guy is not wrong as well. It depends on how you want to look at it.
I cannot explain the gain of peak bhp which is about 6bhp but I guess I can help you by showing you another way to look at your graph. Hope it helps though
If you are talking about peak bhp honestly it would be hard to extract a decent amount of power from just a simple ECU tweak or with an additional air filter. In simple words always take advertisement with a pinch of salt.
Anyway I have attached a free hand drawn graph (i know the graph looks crappy). The line in red is the base dyno run of a vehicle. The one in blue is one that has been chipped up.
You can choose to look at either A or B. Assuming you spent an 'X' amount of money. Which would you feel more satisfied at looking?
Point A: Probably gain of 10bhp at the peak
OR
Point B: Increase of about 30bhp in the low-mid range revs
I'm no salesman or related to J4C in anyway, just thought I'd share my thoughts with you as I've been through the exact same situation as you are going through right now. If it makes you feel any better, your current situation is alot better than mine
pingman;144979 said:
Hi pingman,
honestly your dyno guy is not wrong as well. It depends on how you want to look at it.
I cannot explain the gain of peak bhp which is about 6bhp but I guess I can help you by showing you another way to look at your graph. Hope it helps though
If you are talking about peak bhp honestly it would be hard to extract a decent amount of power from just a simple ECU tweak or with an additional air filter. In simple words always take advertisement with a pinch of salt.
Anyway I have attached a free hand drawn graph (i know the graph looks crappy). The line in red is the base dyno run of a vehicle. The one in blue is one that has been chipped up.
You can choose to look at either A or B. Assuming you spent an 'X' amount of money. Which would you feel more satisfied at looking?
Point A: Probably gain of 10bhp at the peak
OR
Point B: Increase of about 30bhp in the low-mid range revs
I'm no salesman or related to J4C in anyway, just thought I'd share my thoughts with you as I've been through the exact same situation as you are going through right now. If it makes you feel any better, your current situation is alot better than mine
changster77
Well-Known Member
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
Pingman, I know which dyno your car went on. Ive put my cars on those dyna pack many times. They are wat we call hub dynos and not the traditional roller dynos that are done at the tires. I do not want to get into a dyno discussion but if you guys are realli interested, Steve Dinan wrote an extremely informative and indepth paper on it here. http://www.dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9 . Roller dyno users will argue that the actual power put down the road is more accurate with their dynos.
Anyway, i digress. I pretty much agree with most that has been said so far but honestly, i think we have to put things in perspective when it comes to these tuning power figures. A 5-10hp gain at the crank is a decent gain from just ECU remapping of your stock ECU much less at the wheels. I would be pleased if my normally aspirated engine has improved that much power and torque from just the ECU remap. Think about it, how much could that Hiop tuner do to your stock ECU. They do very simple stuff like modify your fuel maps and perhaps your ignition timings(i dont even think they do that). And dont forget that the fuel maps he uploads to your ECU are generic, which means its one size fits all. As you know, not all engines are exactly the same. Its not like u know manual tuning and testing that you can do with a aftermarket ECU like motec for E.G. What you are paying for is the fact that he got the expertise to hack your stock ECU BMW coding system and modify your maps to ones that he has tested(i hope) on your type of engine that produces power gains in hopefully various types of intake temperature conditions. And he has to ensure that these modifications are relatively "safe,conservative" for all types of driving, octane quality etc.
Pingman, I know which dyno your car went on. Ive put my cars on those dyna pack many times. They are wat we call hub dynos and not the traditional roller dynos that are done at the tires. I do not want to get into a dyno discussion but if you guys are realli interested, Steve Dinan wrote an extremely informative and indepth paper on it here. http://www.dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9 . Roller dyno users will argue that the actual power put down the road is more accurate with their dynos.
Anyway, i digress. I pretty much agree with most that has been said so far but honestly, i think we have to put things in perspective when it comes to these tuning power figures. A 5-10hp gain at the crank is a decent gain from just ECU remapping of your stock ECU much less at the wheels. I would be pleased if my normally aspirated engine has improved that much power and torque from just the ECU remap. Think about it, how much could that Hiop tuner do to your stock ECU. They do very simple stuff like modify your fuel maps and perhaps your ignition timings(i dont even think they do that). And dont forget that the fuel maps he uploads to your ECU are generic, which means its one size fits all. As you know, not all engines are exactly the same. Its not like u know manual tuning and testing that you can do with a aftermarket ECU like motec for E.G. What you are paying for is the fact that he got the expertise to hack your stock ECU BMW coding system and modify your maps to ones that he has tested(i hope) on your type of engine that produces power gains in hopefully various types of intake temperature conditions. And he has to ensure that these modifications are relatively "safe,conservative" for all types of driving, octane quality etc.
changster77
Well-Known Member
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
These are some excerpts i took from dinan brochure for 3 series though its been quite long ago and these are for E46 american versions with lower HP etc.
These are some excerpts i took from dinan brochure for 3 series though its been quite long ago and these are for E46 american versions with lower HP etc.
changster77
Well-Known Member
Re: FR: E65 VVT being HIOP-ed
On engine software alone, they onli safely extracted 6 bhp from the 328
Take note that with software, high flow intake, throttle body and exhaust, a world reknown tuner like dinan could only squeeze 14 bhp out of the old E46 330.
On engine software alone, they onli safely extracted 6 bhp from the 328
Take note that with software, high flow intake, throttle body and exhaust, a world reknown tuner like dinan could only squeeze 14 bhp out of the old E46 330.
