Grassroots in Motorsport

AC Schnitzer

Well-Known Member
After 8 years, I'm finally calling it a day and will be ending my Motorsport Chapter in Perth and beginning a new one in Singapore as I relocate back for work.

In the last couple of years I have been competing predominantly in Tarmac Rallies, Hill Climbs, a few Time Attacks, Circuit Racings, Sprints.

I'd like to think of myself as the typical weekend track warrior gone horribly wrong over the years. The photos shall explain for themselves later on.

Motorsport has always been a bitter sweet affair for me. As with the stages of life from infant to teenage to adult, I moved from Anger to Frustration to Perseverance. At the end of the day, I got to know myself a little better and keep pushing my limitations a step at a time.

This was what my car looks like 6 years ago.

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Today

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Not much has changed externally. Apart from mandatory event sponsor stickers, battery kill switch location stickers, wider profile tyres and front lip, all else remains stock. No fancy GT wings or Carbon Fibre Canards unless I have free access to wind tunnel to test load

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I don't recall a Circuit I could call home like Sepang or PG is to people who reside in Singapore. The stages of Tarmac Rallies are scattered mostly South of Western Australia, Often more than 250km from Perth City.

These Stages requires us to spend 3 days at location. Depart on Friday Evenings for a 3 hours drive. Not particularly an enjoyable road trip considering the springs are F12kg R10kg with the less than desirable Australia Road conditions. With speed limits at 110kph (3000rpm), the drone in the cabin isn't forgiving. Ear Plugs are necessary.

Upon arrival, if my back isn't already broken by the Bucket seats with little padding, we would swap from Street to to R comps. Cordless impact wrench is particularly helpful but at $1000aud for a decent one, I decided that this might be a good opportunity work out my under utilised muscles.

Bromance takes places very frequently inbetween stages. This is because it is cheaper for the 3 of us to stay in the 1 motel room to reduce cost. This is Collie Ridge, commonly coined by us as BrokeBack Ridge, a mining town located about 230km South of Perth.

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E30 M3 converted to RHD. Owned by a fellow competitor who happened to stay in the same motel. Probably the nicest and most down to earth guy. Unfortunately this car was written off early last year at Busselton. We decided to chip in, spread our baggage evenly amongst 3 cars, give him and his buddies a lift home as we were about 2 hours drive from the City

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Unloading rear right on tight hairpins with dips. Photo doesn't seem to show the severity of the dip.

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My usual routine involves memorising every corner, gradient, off camber sections, dips, etc.

Thereafter analysing the finer details such as which corners I can or cannot cut. If I can cut, is there a dip in those corners ? if so whats the est. depth in mm and which section of the corner they are located.

Generally you may try to find various sections that gives you the most grip but being a Tarmac Rally, the grip changes all the time from people going off or cutting corners which then throws sand, stones, branches etc.

Identifying your escape zones is crucial. Every year, without fail at the Busselton stage, there will be at least 10-15 crashes. Of those about 2-4 are complete write offs. One of which rolled his GC8, trailer and Landcruiser while on the way home to avoid a Kangaroo. Driver was ok.

On stages that are higher risk where going off means rolling downhill 100ft below till a tree stops you, driving at 8/10 is probably as much as I would push.

Identifying your escape zones allow you to manage your risk and push harder than other sections and depending on layout, sometimes that could translate into few tenth a second in laptimes.

Skid marks at 0:28 belongs to a driver who experienced a tank slapper, spin 360 downhill then stopped by a tree driver side first. Other than a sore knee, he is fine and still competes today

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwxhgRPVSHE[/ame]

Unbelievable as it may seem, there were times I had great difficulties in grabbing the gearknob preparing for downshift. At that speed, your elbows flexes up and down and keeping the steering wheel pointing straight with minor corrections become a struggle, there are Zero G sensations and your neck would've been a few inches shorter if not for the harness strapping you into the seat. At any given time if a tyre went airborne, when it comes in contact with the tarmac, the car twitches ever so slightly to readjust differential in wheel rotational speed relative to ground speed.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxSIOZ5qOlk]‪Collie Hill Climb‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

Saturday is mainly Recce and Practice. Ideally it is a good time to absorb as much track information as you can than analysing them. Getting Co-Driver to write the pacenotes and discuss further when and at what speed and volume you want him to speak.

A typical Preliminary Pacenotes. Lots of Cancellations and re-writes

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Pacenotes are generally provided but does not contain information pertaining to Corners severity, range estimates, etc so I plot my own.

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The Pacenotes reflect on this run. We finished 4th due to a car crashing ahead of us.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPZ0fZhP0dQ[/ame]

Base on the above video, not actual. Cars are released at 30 seconds interval. In Tarmac Rallies there are no Re-runs for the drivers who crash or the drivers behind who are affected by that crash. Tough love, but thats Tarmac Rally for you.

From where the wreckage was, the passenger side was directly in line with my braking zone. An error on my part might bankrupt the Co-driver's medical insurer. I made the decision to slow down, made sure they are alright, pass them, continue. That decision cost us about 10 seconds. If there was room for a larger margin for error, I'll push on. At the time, where the wreckage was, based on my judgement the margin for error was very small. I decided that both the driver and myself going home in 1 piece is more important than chasing after 10 secs. Looking back, I don't regret it. As much as I would like to win, this isn't WRC or F1.

While It is easy for one to sit comfortably in a couch and judge, when you are strapped in, adrenalin pumping competing in a 3.91km course full of concrete barriers, dirt, water, changing surface conditions, 0.2mm of rain, blasting out of a blind corner and faced with the above scenario, there is not a whole lot of time you can think about. Decisions are made in split seconds. Right decision gets you rewarded, wrong ones get you punished. Its that simple.

Would the 10 secs have made a difference in our standings ? Yes.

Would we have won ? No. Enough for a 2nd but still miles away from 1st.


When it became apparent that the risk at some of stages were substantially higher where 240kph on surface bumpy enough to airborne the tyres, Sporadic Zero Gs felt. I decided to put in the a full Roll Cage.

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Being a bolt in rollcage with the intention of reverting the car back to a road registered car, it by no means do much in a highspeed front cabin intrusion but more so for rollover protection. The rollover protection is much needed when using a 4/6 point harness where unlike factory seat belts, if you're able to slide your body sideways assuming you survive the initial impact when the roof collapse. With shoulder harnesses, it prevents your body from moving side ways and when the roof collapses, your neck shortens a few inches. Some protection is better than none. My next track car if I could even afford one would have a full weld in FIA rollcage.

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CAMS approved first aid kit to put your skull together if you survive the crash.

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Mandatory 2kilo Fire extinguisher which does sweet f all. Live or Die vs Weight Penalty. You decide

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In a Series, there are certain Circuit Racing involved.

This one is at Collie Raceway.

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Time Attack at Barbagallo Raceway. Into turn 1 after the straights can be tough on brakes. 1 cooling lap is often insufficient.

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The Time Attack series takes place at night. Mostly commencing at 1900hrs. Chances are that in Winter, if you haven't already done a clean lap around 2000hrs depending on weather condtions, you wouldn't be able to get a better laptime because track temp falls from approx 20deg to 12deg by 2000hrs. Planning your best runs and grouping with cars of similar pace will help eliminate traffic and get you clean runs.

2nd Outright. 1st outright goes to a 9 MR.

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Just when the stars are aligned in your favour, the welds on your titanium catback decides to enough is enough.

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From a Drivers perspective.

I'm not sure if everybody walks the same path I did during their infant motorsport days. I had my dark moments where I would blame everything but myself. There were days when I was angry at competitors not competing in a Category they belong to and taking the win.

When all is said and done, I must say, I've reached a point where all that anger and hatred translate into a simple question, "Why am I slower than others ?"

So you buy a mirror, place it on the table and stare at it all day and ask yourself that same question repeatedly until something magical happens.

We all have mirrors and we look at it everyday. However looking at "it" vs looking at yourself is entirely a different matter. Looking at the mirror without looking at yourself is otherwise a time-wasting exercise if you aren't ready to open up and be receptive and critical of your mistakes.

I did that and realised braking is more than just braking. In the beginning it was slaming the Stop Pedal as hard as you can. Now its about how much you brake, what rate you brake when you brake, what rate you ease the pedal and when. This goes hand in hand with throttle.

Then there are both traction and speed sensing and really paying attention to all your body senses and translating feedback from the steering wheel into information where you determine how traction is available and gauge if you can squeeze that 2-3kph more in corner speed.

I can't stress this enough but time you spend on anger and hatred is time not spent on recognising those mistakes, finding a solution to those mistakes and develop a positive learning curve towards ridding those mistakes. Generally mistakes that I am unable rid soon becomes a habit which is comparable with falling down a well. It is hard to get back up.

Here are some Facts that I've come to realised in my Experience. Perhaps some may disagree with me.

  • More time you spend blaming the car, less time you have in correcting your mistakes.
  • Money you spend to make your car go faster is just bandaid solution. It does not make the driver any quicker.
  • There will always be someone else quicker than you be it in terms of driving talent or money.
  • Trying to replicate what other drivers are doing gets you nowhere in 2 different cars with different set up in different conditions.
  • More Horsepower doesn't make the car any easier to handle.
  • You can complain about the car's set up all you want and not win the race, Or, you can change your driving style to suit the car and maybe win the race. Make do with what you have, complain later.
  • My car is better than your car mentality is going to get you hurt some day.

A proper mindset is very important to begin with.

Starting off with what do I wish to Achieve:

If you intend to track the car for the thrill of it. Okay.

If you intend to do more, what do you wish to achieve ? Be a better driver or Compete in F1 or Compete in the upper echelon of entry level motorsport ? Set some Goals and Objectives and make sure you accomplish them. Some people set and forget like most coffee machines. And I ask, Whats the point ?

How committed are you to learning?

Are you genuine about wanting to learn ? Willing to sell off a Kidney to raise money for motorsport or do what it takes to be quicker.

For people who goes to the track for the thrill of it or socialise, Okay.

For people who are genuine about learning, its more than just go for a few hot laps, come into the pits, get out of the car and go, hee hee haa haa about who did what, who went where and go to the bar with your mates.


  • Identify your Mistakes quickly.
Find out what method works and what don't. Generally for me coming into the pits, I'd like to stay in the car for a few minutes when my memory is fresh and just going through any mistakes incurred, where, find out how I can improve, memorise and try new things.

Memorising what you intend to do on your next heat is important. This means at any given time, when asked what you're going to do in your next heat, you're able to tell us Corners A,B,C this and that mistake, here's what I'm going to do to improve and actually going out there to sort out those mistakes.


  • Managing your Mistakes
Its no surprise beginners head out there and make mistakes at every corner and try to improve everything in one go. That is not going to happen and in most cases, it is a 2 steps forward 3 steps back scenario.

Assuming the level of attention in value terms at any given time is 100%. If there are 10 corners, the level of attention you are able to assign to each corner is 10%. Unless you inherit some form of super memory, you're not going to resolve all your mistakes in one go. Concentrate on 2 corners and breaking your level of attention into 50% to each corner can sometimes be a good thing. This not only helps with memory retention but also helps alleviate possibilities of making the same errors at a later stage.


  • Develop a Positive Learning Curve.
There are instances where people who recognises their mistake, eliminate them, move on and focus on other turns only to have their older mistakes come to haunt them 1-2 laps later.

Example.

1st Heat: Turns 1, 2, 3, 4 Mistakes Identified

2nd Heat: Turns 1 & 2 Mistakes eliminated, continue to focus on Turns 3 & 4

3rd Heat: Turns 3 & 4 Mistakes eliminated, Turns 1 & 2 same mistakes occur.

Positive learning curve is important for a driver to move on. There are days where my learning curve flatlines all day. Generally I try to take a break and think of other things. I try not to drive any further because some of these mistakes can translate into habits and habits are hard to get out of. Every driver is different, find out what works for you.

Exercise & Food Intake

Have an exercise regime. If this is a weekend track affair, Its Okay.

If you want to achieve more, you need to be physically fit. Fatigue greatly affects your ability to drive well. Struggling to finish a stint just isn't fun. Your mind succumbs to fatigue and you spend less time focusing on driving and more time on conserving strength. This is indicative when I did a 3 hour endurance go kart race where laptimes fall consistently across the board.

Its good to have an overall exercise regime that focuses on the whole body. Paying more attention to neck and back muscles can be a good thing as lateral Gs can place quite a bit of strain.

Some people dislike eating before a race for fear of vomitting. Regardless what reasons there may be, it is important to plan your meals well. Generally consuming food about 2 hours before a race is a rough guide if your race falls during meal times, Eg. 0800, 1200, 1800hrs.

Generally I drink lots of water about 2hrs before the race. Inbetween races I get some sugar in my system. This may be in form of a chocolate bars or some biscuits with high carbohydrate and rehydrate with sips of water very regularly inbetween. Just remember, you need energy to drive.

Lastly, Don't be afraid to step out of your Comfort Zones.

There are people who drive lap after lap getting consistent times within tenth of a second of each laps which is great. But do not be afraid to try new methods or lines and look for that thousandth of a second.

Lap 24 & 38 are driver changes. Apart from a few traffic, otherwise it was a clean run. I was quite happy with my 59s and didn't want to push further. We qualfied 2nd, led the first lap in 1st position only to spin at the Chicane. Regulations dictate a driver change is mandatory in any spins. This put us in last at 8th. Hence we wanted to play it safe and be consistent since it was at the very beginning part of the race.

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Near the finish, it was my turn to take the kart to the chequered flag. We were sitting comfortably in 3rd even though we started from last place. There was a particular hairpin which had a massive pool of water at the apex extending about 2.5m into the centre of the track.

I was fighting tooth and nail for grip in that Section and the China Spec tyres they put on these things did not help. Even on the damp section, you go from grip to disney on ice in under 1 second.

I tried to take the outside line, the grip felt higher the kart was more willing to trace the line and I was able to get on the gas earlier with lesser slip angle than before.

At the time, I did not know I broke the Team's PB as we did not have fancy military spec communication equipments. With traffic out of the way, this translated into Personal Best for myself and the team which I only found out at the end of the race.

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Had I stepped out of my comfort zone and be adventurous, I may be able to achieve more consistent times in 58s. Bearing in mind the PB was set at around 2130hrs. Temperatures were below 10 deg that night. Had this taken place earlier in the race where temperates were warmer, there should be another hundredth of a second in there somewhere.

Would it have made any difference in our standings that night ? No.

But with any kind of competition particularly endurance races, anything can happen and you'll just have to keep pushing and finish the race.

In the end lessons were learnt. If you don't step out of your comfort zone and cross boundaries, you won't know what you can achieve.

I think this is as far as I'll write for now.

Overall, I learnt some lessons the hard way. There were angers and frustrations but thats life. Its important to learn to let go and continue to persevere. I was glad to have put those chapters behind me and move on. Motorsport is so much more enjoyable that way.

Looking back, I was glad I didn't hold back when others questioned what I did.

I'm not sure if I would be able to do this all again in Singapore as car ownership is expensive.

Perhaps I'll compete in Gokart which is more affordable or buy a cheap race car in Malaysia and compete in S1K, MSS or Saturday Night Fever races.

I would like to achieve more if I could and would certainly like to contribute to the local motorsport community. We'll see how it goes at the end of August.

I hope this write up will help anyone who is keen in entering motorsport but plague with doubts.

Feel free to share your humble beginnings in Motorsport.

PS* These are just my own personal experience during my early days in motorsports. My thoughts and lessons learnt are from my own perspective and may not even be right, so please do not treat it as gospels.
 
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Re: Grassroots in Motorsport

Truly excellent stuff man! Thanks so much for sharing. You may want to change your image hosting to imgur instead which is much better. Right now it's all frog images.

Here are some Facts that I've come to realised in my Experience. Perhaps some may disagree with me.

  • More time you spend blaming the car, less time you have in correcting your mistakes.
  • Money you spend to make your car go faster is just bandaid solution. It does not make the driver any quicker.
  • There will always be someone else quicker than you be it in terms of driving talent or money.
  • Trying to replicate what other drivers are doing gets you nowhere in 2 different cars with different set up in different conditions.
  • More Horsepower doesn't make the car any easier to handle.
  • You can complain about the car's set up all you want and not win the race, Or, you can change your driving style to suit the car and maybe win the race. Make do with what you have, complain later.
  • My car is better than your car mentality is going to get you hurt some day.
Totally agree about not blaming the car, putting energy into adapting instead, get into ballpark consistently before changing the setup. It is surprisingly hard to get drivers to stop blaming the car, to stop tweaking the setup in tiny steps worth a tenth or two, while there are still whole seconds on the table in the driving alone.

So true about not blindly copying setups, lines. It just does not work. Sad that it happens all the time. Road cars copying the race car version lines, drivers thinking the same car on street tires, semi slicks, and slicks are going to have the same best line. Trying to copy racecar setups on road cars, etc. Multiple disasters.

One big example is guy watches racecar version of his road car driven by a pro on a bumpy course, racecar has lots of scrub radius, is stiff, all combining to create lots of unwanted feedback at the steering wheel lots especially in turns, yet this is best overall compromise for the course. Steering wheel jerks around and driver has to work real hard to control it.

Now Mr. Roadcar sees this and thinks the pro is intentionally jerking the wheel around like that and since the pro is one of the best, he now goes to Sepang or another circuit in his heavy, soft, low scrub radius roadcar, and jerks the wheel around even in long steady state turns, just like he saw the pro do, thinking it's fast. He does not listen to logic, does not run tests (no data) to prove to himself which way truly is better. All he knows is XYZ PRO did it, so it must be right, and that's the end of it. Worse still is when the pro who is a decent pro but not a super one, gets stuck in the racecar groove when he hops into a roadcar to show the owner how to drive better. He saws the wheel searching for feel from the low feedback roadcar, goes quicker than the more inexperienced and slower owner of the car. The owner learns a few good things, but also gets sealed in his head that sawing away at the wheel is in fact faster. But a faster driver overall, does not mean he's right in all areas. Have to understand concepts and do lots of testing.

Also have to know why the times are good or bad, tradeoffs, current tradeoff balance, what the next best tradeoff is if mistakes are made, if the track goes away or comes to you, if there's a car or oil sitting at a trackout or apex, etc. All important because the driving is never perfect and completely consistent, and neither is the car.

The proper way to test concept is to get 2 fast adaptable pros to go back to back to back in the same roadcar, rigged with data systems, and give them not just 2 laps to run, but sets of 5 so they have time to adapt to find true optimum. Run the sets of 5, ABABAB and look for trends. Have two wheelsets if necessary. Have a big prize so each driver is really motivated to run his best and adapt the quickest. Same thing goes for absolute line and input optimization for a given setup, etc. You won't find either of them sawing. And if you find a sawer, he won't be the faster of the two, all else equal (which may still be tough to do, but try to get them as close as possible)

I would add that in this day and age where electronics are affordable, quantifying performance is important and totally necessary for the fastest advancement. Every step up in racing you go, the data systems get more complex, and the analysis more thorough. From couple hundred up to million dollar data systems, and from checking sector times in 2 minutes, to spending two weeks crunching vehicle and driver data off a single day at the track, rig, or tunnel.

With quantification, everyone gets on the same page, instead of trying to normalize descriptions, estimate differences in time and distance, have an record of everything that will never fade or forget like a human brain does.
 
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Re: Grassroots in Motorsport

Images and text sorted.

I think there are drivers out there who wants to achieve a higher level driving that is somewhat comparable with that of paid race car drivers but not quite understand the fundamentals and also set out with the wrong state of mind.

This is what separates the average joe from the F1 drivers who delivers the full package.

I personally think anybody with enough seat time would improve their laptimes. Just a matter of how much and when.

The ones with the right mindset who are ready to be receptive of their mistakes are the ones who find a tenth here and there and really make the difference.

If we set up a trust fund and collect a dollar for every person who ask you, what tyre pressure are you running, what spring rates you are using, where you are braking, etc, We should be able to save Greece from defaulting.

There is nothing wrong for a beginner to ask these questions. If anything I do encourage them to ask more questions because its how you learn. The ones that annoys me are the drivers whom I try to explain different compound, brand, sizes, temperatures hot or cold and goes on to interrupt me and say, " so.. what pressures are you running ?"

Such individuals who not receptive of their mistakes and unwilling to learn are traits that are denying themselves from tapping into their potential.

At the end of the day, your typical weekend warrior is not going to see his/her driving deficiencies until he/she competes. At least it was the case for me. This is of course, setting aside "the interpretation of rule books" as far as what you can and cannot do to a car. This is pervalent across all discipline of motorsport but that is a whole new chapter.

I have personally been looking at data acquisition equipment. While I'm not electronically well versed with the equipment or with data interpretation, I am making the effort to read more into them. Unfortunately in CAMS sanctioned events, the use of Performance box is not allowed citing that in an event of a crash, if the windscreen shatters, the Performance Box becomes a projectile. CAMS like to think of themselves higher than than FIA. But rules are rules.

Predominantly in the past, most of my learning was done through "feel". The challenge is really to accurately depict how well I drove, take a stab at whether my laptimes had improved or not then actually looking at the results to confirm what I felt was a good or bad lap.

This can often be frustrating and time consuming because there will be times where I felt it was a good lap but the laptimes don't quite reflect. There were times I thought it was a bad lap but turns out to be my personal best. Most of the time I can "tell" I did a good lap before confirming with the laptimes.

However there are times where it can be frustrating when I pit and thought, "well, turns 1,2 and maybe 3, etc is alright" but the laptimes did not reflect that. And because most of the driving was done by sensing how close am I to the limits of the tyres and whether I could just squeeze in 1 or 2 kph, by no means it helps me identify which areas to focus on where the mistakes had occurred.

This is simply attributed to the fact that driving close to the limits of the tyres does not necessarily always translate into what is considered to be a good laptime. It is possible drive at the limits of the tyres and still be slow because there is more to taking a corner than taking a corner. The good laptimes requires the right sequencing of balance between the braking point, rate at which the brakes are applied and for how long into the corner and at what rate it is being eased and at what point throttle is applied and at what rate and what lead/lag crossover time in m/s between brakes and throttle and we haven't even talk about steering yet.

For me, my body isn't as sensitive enough to pin point with great accuracy on areas I should pay attention to. I'm not even sure if F1 drivers could and if so how. I think this is where data acquisition is particularly helpful as far as accuracy and consistently identifying the errors in numerical terms.
 
Re: Grassroots in Motorsport

AC Schnitzer;666562 said:
I have personally been looking at data acquisition equipment. While I'm not electronically well versed with the equipment or with data interpretation, I am making the effort to read more into them. Unfortunately in CAMS sanctioned events, the use of Performance box is not allowed citing that in an event of a crash, if the windscreen shatters, the Performance Box becomes a projectile. CAMS like to think of themselves higher than than FIA. But rules are rules.

There are many systems that are nearly as cheap and run anchored to the chassis, with absolutely nothing to come loose in a crash. Look up Performance Box Sport, VBOX series, AIM MXL dashlogger, Motec ADL2, STACK, etc.

For me, my body isn't as sensitive enough to pin point with great accuracy on areas I should pay attention to. I'm not even sure if F1 drivers could and if so how. I think this is where data acquisition is particularly helpful as far as accuracy and consistently identifying the errors in numerical terms.
These days systems can be set up to be more sensitive and accurate than the best human feel. Wheel slip ratios, slip angles, speeds, multi axis accelerations and yaw rates, oversteer and understeer gradients, and 100 + more on the vehicle development side of things, are all beyond what is humanly possible to feel. Seen it 100 / 100 times.. no exceptions even including F1 drivers, F1 test drivers.

What confuses many, is sometimes you get F1 team principals or designers, praising their driver's feel as beyond the systems, etc. Strikes me as purely for press, or ignorant because I've never come across an example in real life, and I've never heard of a concrete example from anyone who is working or has worked in F1 in the correct department - a real example, with names and quantities mentioned.

Adrian Newey the designer recently praised Vettel's excellent feel saying something to the effect of "we know what the car is doing, we just don't know why it's doing that, but Vettel has feel and knows". I wish he would go into more detail because it seems so backwards and absurd. It's not the driver's job to know why it's doing it.. that's up to the race engineers to figure out. If they don't know, get better ones.

The driver should feel what the car is doing and report it as accurately as possible. He may suggest why he thinks the car is acting a certain way, but that's secondary to what the data says, the tires say, the dynamics as understood by the engineering team.

Is it even possible to know why something is happening without knowing what is happening? If the car is rolling and I know it's because lateral forces are being applied to it effectively at the CG which is above ground and above the roll center, and because it is turning (why), I must already know that it is in fact rolling (what). So if a driver already knows the whys, does he not already know the whats? In which case, why not remove the data system, the entire race engineering department, and save multiple millions per year... give it all to the driver as a bonus, treat the driver super well and hold on to him because he's god.

If the whats are known roughly only by feel, no quantities, how can finer states be felt. Can a driver feel 3mm of warp, while in 2mm of heave? If he does not know the car is in a mix of warp and heave, then how can he know why for example, the car is so soft in warp, yet heave stiff?

Newey is a hero (also because he actually race drives in addition to designing), but I really don't understand that, I hope to find the answer one day. Why were/are Schumacher, Senna, and now Vettel known for their obsession with analysis and poring over data?

If Newey is suggesting knowing why on the spot (say pit stops during practice sessions), before there is time to crunch the data, and that driver feel and estimation on the spot can turn point them in the right direction most of the time, then I totally agree that is possible, but only in rough ways. Given any time for analysis, 10 minutes or more (especially with all their direct data links to teams and computing power at HQ) a much more solid conclusion can be reached. The on the spot, super time limited situations are very rare these days with very few major adjustments done trackside. Preparation is 95%.of the win.

Even then, how many drivers have the sensitivity of the trio listed earlier? Put it another way - on your F1 team would you rather have a godly driver who can feel everything and know all the whats and whys, and have no data, or would you rather have top level data with a decent driver? How many teams run the former way, and how many the latter, or better (driver wise)? 100% run the latter (with decent, or better, driver).

Sorry..don't mean to go off on a tangent...
 
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Re: Grassroots in Motorsport

you have a very admirable motorsports spirit. Wish I could say the same for myself. This is truly an invaluable experience that you are sharing with us. Thank you.
 
Re: Grassroots in Motorsport

Excellent stuff mate
Cud see your enthusiasm in motorsport.
Come join us nx time at SIC
 
Re: Grassroots in Motorsport

Shaun;666709 said:
There are many systems that are nearly as cheap and run anchored to the chassis, with absolutely nothing to come loose in a crash. Look up Performance Box Sport, VBOX series, AIM MXL dashlogger, Motec ADL2, STACK, etc.

I have been looking at the more affordable AIM MXL Pista and had a play around wth Race Studios. I find the MXL more user friendly for beginners as far as the plots and terminologies used as compared to the Model ADL2 which is about $8kaud not including sensors.

Employing the use of data acquisition for me given what I am currently doing becomes an issue. My primary objective of using data acquisition is to fine hone my driving skills. In saying that, this means a full track day (Non competitive) from AM to PM with little traffic with the following learning format.

Learning Format
Identify lesson objective/driver's weakness, Outlap, Pit, Analyse data, Identify areas to focus on, Develop method of improvement, Outlap, Pit, Identify if method of improvement eliminated the mistakes, and so on.

Problems identified


  • Memory Retention
Post Race data interpretation could help identify my weaknesses but not so helpful in correcting them on the spot. Tarmac Rallies run like clockwork without the use of transponders or dorians, this means cars usually released at every 30 seconds interval are basically timed. For eg. 11:00:00 Car 1 releases. 11:00:30 Car 2 releases.

At any given time, there will be more than 10 cars lined up in numerical sequence ready for launch with not a whole lot of road width to maneuver. This than leaves very little time for data interpretation after accounting for time spent of torquing wheel nuts, tyre temp and pressure checks, hydrate, recall mistakes made, etc.

In stages where there are greater intervals, I think there should be enough time to analyse the data and make driving corrections.

  • Momentum
One of the problems I faced is that after weeks of inactivity, hop into the same car I've been driving for years and reel in poor lap times. It takes a while for me to adjust but I can say this with confidence that from Lap 1 thru to about 5 the improvements are quite consistent. I don't recall there was ever a time where I could jump into the same car get within 1 second of my personal best. This means that post race data analyses will not be quite as effective.

I would personally prefer a format (Non race days) where I am not rushed, drive, identify errors made through data interpretation and immediately head out there and try new methods and reassess.

  • Track Availability
1 Month leading to Pre race days such as Improved Production (IPR), Street Cars (SCR), Historic, Drift, V8 Supercar races, Open Wheelers, Formula Fords are almost impossible to drive. Apart from pre race days, finding a track day with little traffic depends on luck and possibility arriving first thing in the morning.

Not that this would matter anyway since I'm moving back to Singapore. This is an area I will explore and take my learning on to the next step.


Adrian Newey the designer recently praised Vettel's excellent feel saying something to the effect of "we know what the car is doing, we just don't know why it's doing that, but Vettel has feel and knows". I wish he would go into more detail because it seems so backwards and absurd. It's not the driver's job to know why it's doing it.. that's up to the race engineers to figure out. If they don't know, get better ones.

If the whats are known roughly only by feel, no quantities, how can finer states be felt. Can a driver feel 3mm of warp, while in 2mm of heave? If he does not know the car is in a mix of warp and heave, then how can he know why for example, the car is so soft in warp, yet heave stiff?

Here's the part which I don't quite understand. I can't recall which WRC series I was watching. I think it involved Chassis preparation for Subaru where the chief said something along the lines of, "we have to be very careful in chassis preparation before if we don't get the chassis alignment right, even if it was off by a few microns, the drivers can pick it up"

I am in no position to criticise nor do I have the expertise to discredit the driver's ability to pick up such fine details through their senses.

I'm keeping an open mind on this topic because I have always been curious as to whether it is true that top tier runners in WRC and F1 drivers can indeed pick up these fine details and if so how and what areas do they pay attention to.

Because there are a lot of vehicle dynamics involved here, it may be more convincing if they described to engineers, this or what not felt like this, engineers does his thing and goes, "ah, chassis alignment is out by XYZ, well done"

But it doesn't quite make sense if Driver A pits and goes, "chassis is out of alignment" and engineers confirm. This sort of pinpoint accuracy seems to suggest data acquisition is redundant.

If there was ever an opportunity, I'm keen to observe how the driver conveys his feedback to the race engineer and how the race engineer interpret that feedback into action in a F1 team during test day.
 
Re: Grassroots in Motorsport

Racebred;666807 said:
you have a very admirable motorsports spirit. Wish I could say the same for myself. This is truly an invaluable experience that you are sharing with us. Thank you.

TripleM;666835 said:
Excellent stuff mate
Cud see your enthusiasm in motorsport.
Come join us nx time at SIC


I wished I had started this when I was younger.

I was in Singapore back in May where I met up with Shaun and Arthur at Kartright on Sunday morning and I saw the following.

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In the first photo, notice this kid's feet barely touched the ground ?

My first impression was, "hmmm maybe Dad dotes on his son" which explains the expensive hobby.

As the morning progresses, Dad was standing in the hot sun spotting his son. Dad asked son to pit, probably gave him a few suggestions, son heads out and Dad continued standing in the sun. This routine went on till lunch.

I stood in the sun for about 15 mins observing Arthur do this thing and melted.

It seems, this is not your typical Father and Son hobby and if it was, you'd gave it 10/10 for effort.

The kid's pace while not as quick as you would expect compared to an adult both ability and kart speed, whilst standing at the pits, you can always observe the drivers who are able to get on the throttle early just by hearing the RPM.

The kid's consistency at getting on throttle is within 1 to 2m lap after lap. Maybe throttle modulation could be improve but, for his age, I'd honestly say you can pat the kid on the back and give him the thumbs up.

I really hope this kid grows up and achieve more in Motorsport.
 
Re: Grassroots in Motorsport

Yup I don't mean in the local trackday context and not Rallies, hillclimbs or other rushed formats. Even in rushed formats though, there's tons to take home at the end of the day, correlate your notes with what was logged, changes made across race weekend, etc. I can't think up a good reason not to, esp for a few hundred to couple thousand dollars.

If others also have similar systems (and even if it is different), you still get to make extremely interesting comparisons without having to be present at the trackday. A perfect record of everything that went on with car and driver (depending on system spec) that cannot be argued with.

Here's the part which I don't quite understand. I can't recall which WRC series I was watching. I think it involved Chassis preparation for Subaru where the chief said something along the lines of, "we have to be very careful in chassis preparation before if we don't get the chassis alignment right, even if it was off by a few microns, the drivers can pick it up"
Another vague statement... does he mean tarmac stage? Because WRC at any of stages involving anything other than smooth tarmac is really all about hammering away on the car between stages to get damage repaired and send it on to the next stage in time. The surfaces are changing so fast, surface state even within the same type changing, driver is driving all closed loop, having to regularly sample surface grip by tapping brake, not to slow down, etc. . Damper state changing depending on terrain, tires wearing...

Microns? There isn't a series around that measures alignment down to microns, especially not rally! Even cars that run purely on the smoothest tracks with tons of downforce and grip on, huge tires that generate huge forces from the tiniest slip angles on these ideal surfaces, don't go down to microns. What is 10 microns across a 15" rim in degrees? What about 100 microns (or 100 microns offset) over a 120" wheelbase and 80" track width in degrees or increased yaw moment decelerating in a straight line? Absolutely nothing. Completely overlapped by variance in tire construction itself...measure the circumference of 10 sets of your very best race tires, and vertical stiffness at the same pressure. Completely overlapped by driver error in steering input (example preempting under or oversteer and not actually getting it) and not in reaction to a condition.

Is the Subaru guy just saying it to hype subaru chassis'? Or to hype the precision of his company in chassis prep?

How many drivers have truly done blind tests to check their feel? Teams run blind tests on drivers all the time and I've never seen a single driver pass a blind test unless the changes were major ones. Try and access the best driver you can, pay him a little to be your test subject. Run blind tests with a basic $10K data system and you'll see tons more in the data than the driver can feel. Tell him that in half a day you will test a few things and he will be blind to them.. just his job to report what he feels and why he thinks it is happening. The list in random order (he won't know order) and made every 10 laps depending on lap length, for example, can be 2 clicks stiffer on dampers up front, 2 heat cycle tires replaced with new tires, 2 tenths of a degree of toe out, 4 clicks softer all round, 2mm wheel spacers inserted in rear only, 1mm spacer added to one of the front wheels only, rear wing aoa reduced 1 deg, separately raised 3 degrees. All these changes are quick to make and driver can't see them. You can set a rule that only one change will normally be made one at a time, but during a couple of the stops, 2 changes will be applied at the same time, or none at all. Driver should know about this rule. He should not be around the pits when changes are made and is only called back when it is time to drive, no hints. Take his observations and comments every stint. At the end of the day you'll see he got the change order wrong, his feel wrong, yet properly instrumented and calibrated you'll see it all in the data all in sync with the changes. You can blind test an engineer on the other side of the world by sending him the data and he'll score far better than the driver, very likely a perfect score.

There's too much hype and distortion as stories get passed around... I want to see and measure a real example! :D

===

Mate, that dedicated karting dad.. there are many more like him at the track and it is quite touching. Paul Lee and his teenage son Thaddeus Lee.. each champions in their respective race classes. The dads aren't just spending lots, but they're also out there working really hard, developing setups, moving heavy equipment around, for hours, in the sun. Good bonding I guess :)

We're waiting for you...

qBgyG.jpg



Don't ask me why Ryan dyed his suit pink.
 
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Re: Grassroots in Motorsport

Sorry, 100kph+ winds/thunderstorm brought down my neighbour's tree on my house last friday at about 0100hrs. Neighbour decided to DIY the tree which then ended up blocking my entire driveway with 2m tall branches.

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Back on the topic of data acquisition, I think when all is said and done, the data can tell the driver to focus on specific areas on what he should or should not do. The rest is up to the driver to deliver results. On bad days where learning curve flatlines, the best data acquisition system isn't going to help. I think what needs to be done here and this is purely on driving aspect, is a good combination and balance of data acquistion, driver development, mentorship to deliver the results.

====

I'm sure Ryan has an explanation for that. :)

The other 3 on the right certainly does take a lot of pride in their Kart Suit though.

I've been reading up a far bit on Karting Singapore.

I'm not very familiar with brands of chassis, engines, race restrictions, categories, etc.

I think before I commit 5 figures into Gokarts, I'll probably spend a year competing in the OCBC endurance race and get to understand Gokarts a little more, shake a few hands, digest race supplementarys and understand local track etiquette.

Look forward to catching up with you guys in August.
 
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Re: Grassroots in Motorsport

AC Schnitzer;668007 said:
Back on the topic of data acquisition, I think when all is said and done, the data can tell the driver to focus on specific areas on what he should or should not do. The rest is up to the driver to deliver results. On bad days where learning curve flatlines, the best data acquisition system isn't going to help. I think what needs to be done here and this is purely on driving aspect, is a good combination and balance of data acquistion, driver development, mentorship to deliver the results.

Oh for sure data is not used in isolation. No element can work purely by itself. A driver can have totally no notes, no data, have the same lack of motivation or motor skills, and suck just as much or worse.

Say a perfect robot would drive a 100 sec lap at a circuit, top pros average say 101 sec, top enthusiasts 102 sec. All I'm saying is that in this day and age with powerful electronics priced as low as they are, as long as a newbie starting out at say 107 sec at the same circuit, sees the pros and enthusiasts running 101 and 102 sec in the same car, and is inspired to get there, that data can only help him get there quicker - all else equal.

Data can by certain logic, be considered to 'slow' progression in terms of requiring additional time to relate to it, however in anything beyond the shortest term target, it is a progression hastener, by far.

But the same logic can be applied to even just physical concepts. Trying to understand and apply basic driving concepts can be considered to 'slow' progression. Imagine there's a driver who gets a pro to drive him around or guide him across the track. He tells the pro "I'm not interested in any theory, or any data, at all. I just want you to drive 10 laps with me in the car. I will watch your line, and feel your inputs, and you can also describe your inputs to me as you drive. Then we'll switch seats and I'll drive 10 laps and copy what you did, and you tell me along the way how to get my lines and inputs closer to yours. We'll go back and forth like this till we've run 200 laps and by then I should be really fast. I just want to drive exactly like you so I can go as close to fast as you as possible. Give me the whats and none of the whys because it is a waste of time."

By the end of the day and 200 laps, in that specific car at that specific track, newbie A could very well be running best times as quick as the pro, and be considerably quicker than newbie B who instead of driving 8 hours, has driven only 3 hours, but spent 5 hours on understanding why he's being trained to do certain things (dynamics), and quicker than newbie C who has spent only 2 hours driving, 3 hours covering dynamics, but also 3 hours learning how to understand data and what it shows about how well (or not) he's applied the dynamics concepts.

But 3 days after that, change the car, change the track, and now it'll be entirely reversed. All else equal, newbie C will be quickest, newbie B second, and newbie A will be slowest.

At one extreme there's a pure copycat who understands nothing and is not adaptive at all - fast in one type of car, at one track. At the other extreme there's a pure theory guy, adaptive conceptually, knows what to do, but is unable to apply any of it at all - slow everywhere, in any vehicle. The ideal of course is to be highly conceptual, adaptive, practical and fast in any vehicle, any course. Certain pros rely on the team to tell them what to do, but the truly top pros are always known to be obsessed with detail, concepts, and are adaptive. As enthusiast drivers, not having a pro team to tell us what to do, we should strive to understand everything if we seek long term progression and not just short term copying, short term memory, etc.

===

With your level of motorsport experience, you'll be bored with rental karts after 2 sessions. Rental kart racing is always fun because it's so relaxed and there's much less at stake, flat bumpers. However, fun is one thing, while fun at high intensity is another. High intensity to the point of constantly challenging the body (strength, reflexes) and mind (speed of thought, tactical depth, non emotion) with high quality drivers as competitors. You'll get into it sooner than you think :D

See you in August mate!
 
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