Jokes on race/religion

[axl]

Cross-posted from http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/bmw-singapore-motoring-life/27551-i-quit-5.html#post377390

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So does it mean that it's ok from now on, to post and crack jokes about another person's race/religion if I deem to know the person relatively well, eg. Gadaffi?

"Hey Gad, why do M----s always hold weddings at void decks eh? HAHAHA"

Inspite of the fact that:
1) it's a so-called "private" joke, posted in a public forum?
2) I won't really know whether Gad will be uncomfortable with it, and even if he does, will he respond to it? (And if not, just assume he's ok with it...)
3) Other netizens are browsing the forum, and they would most probably enjoy my little joke and laugh along? (Another little assumption)

What do you guys think? Are there any official stand on these kind of subject matter?

Add: Sometimes I just think popularity stakes in the forum, affect people's judgements.
Add2: People who know me will jolly know I'm not racist - does it mean I'm entitled to post those kind of jokes onine?

 

[ryan]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

We do not welcome any form of content which is racial or sexist in nature.

No Trolling / Personal Attacks / Name calling

No posts obviously designed to attract flames or otherwise incite other posters to react negatively and aggressively will be tolerated. We are all in the BMW.SG forums based on one common trait - our love of the marque, and we do not need to try and bait or trap each other.

Axl: We just need to use some common sense here.

 

[axl]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

Thanks for your clarification Ryan.

But 2 hrs on, 110+ views and not a single other response. Either I'm asking about something which is crystal-clear to others, or I over-estimated my popularity here.

Oh well.

 

[edlms]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

i didn't get a chance to read the thread in full cos of the numerous edits, but i feel compelled to post my thoughts in this thread.

axl - i get what you are saying and i agree with the points you are trying to make.

posts that contain comments/statements that are deemed inappropriate by admin should be disciplined in line with the rules.

i believe the admin endeavour to be OBJECTIVE about such things, despite the fact that there are many who are subjective in their support and views, especially because of the parties involved. but imho, we shouldn't be distracted by the who, what, why and whens of the specific situation.

there are views to support the argument that a community standard should the the accepted social norms of that community. apart from the usual difficulties in the definition alone, we must defer to the authority of admin. eg like using the F word... should we (or admin) allow the postings of the F word in full just because we all use it on a daily basis?

There is a fine line between the various levels of tolerating, allowing, condoning, and changing the rules. Admittedly, social consensus has been cause for change in laws, but until such time, we live within our boundaries - morally, legally and tactfully...

rules and laws are made (by authorities) for the (perceived) common good. the enforcement of such rules and laws are often accompanied by a good dose of (as ryan says) old-fashioned common sense.

cheers

 

[kenntona]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

Axl, I have given you my view on MSN. Precisely for the reasons listed by Ryan, I do not wanna post my views here.

Put it simply, it is a matter of intepretation.

"Hey Gad, why do M----s always hold weddings at void decks eh? HAHAHA"

Vs

"Hey Gad, just out of curiousity, why do many Malays hold weddings at void decks?"

They meant the same thing, but written with a different tone. The latter cannot be looked upon as a racist or derogatory question. The former is, however, very subjective. Some will see it as a mockery, some will simply see it as a casual question, unless it was asked to a not-so-close friend.

Now, whether the person in question felt comfortable or otherwise, he has to gauge his relationship with the person posting the question. Afterall, it is between the two persons - why are other people judging how the question should be asked? If the person felt uncomfortable, retort back - akin to "eh, father mother dun play leh...." The other party will apologise and close the conversation. If the person plays along, and joke along with the question, what offence is taken?

Unless you are telling me the person who was asked the question cannot stand up for himself........

On the subject of offensive tones with regards to race and gender, the forum has seldom penalise that. Like I have said, if you wanna blow the whistle, you have to come clean - else you have no credibility whatsoever. Imagine someone who has been using the F language telling you to watch your forum ethics.......

Quite an irony if you ask me.

 

[phil]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

heres my racist joke

what do you call a pretty woman in Singapore?




























a tourist

 

[kenntona]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

There is a fine line between the various levels of tolerating, allowing, condoning, and changing the rules. Admittedly, social consensus has been cause for change in laws, but until such time, we live within our boundaries - morally, legally and tactfully...

Ed, that's another irony we live with everyday.

We will tell our loved ones not to speed, but we (perhaps only a minority) tend to "test" the boundary every day. Who really keeps strictly to the speed limit?

In simple terms, we bend the (intepretation of the) laws to justify our actions.

Everyday.

 

[RaptureM3]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

axl, don't worry.. you're popular

i love u..

 

[chicane]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

Where do we then draw the line between stereotyping and racism?

Japanese are short, Chinese have slanted eyes, French don't shower, the list goes on.

Are these racists comments then? Or are we just unable to laugh at ourselves?

Unless it's as extreme as sending Jews to death camps or the KKK burning the blacks on stakes, the rest is all quite borderline isn't it?

 

[edlms]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

Ed, that's another irony we live with everyday.

We will tell our loved ones not to speed, but we (perhaps only a minority) tend to "test" the boundary every day. Who really keeps strictly to the speed limit?

In simple terms, we bend the (intepretation of the) laws to justify our actions.

Everyday.

exactly...
that's why if we take a step back and look at a statement or a piece of advice from an objective point of view, it would be hard to disagree with the outcome.

does the bad taste only comes from the fact that the whistle blower doesn't come with clean hands or is not popular.

in your previous post with the 2 similar questions, i take your point about the tone and the exchange between 2 individuals as the background and basis of assessing the intent of the content. but a joke between friends can still have negative (racist) connotations despite being a joke. and that joke, being on a public forum, can be interpreted as offensive by a public reader.

remember recently there was a new guy who made comments about the ethnicity of his wife? between he and his wife, the descriptive terms used were casual and funny, but used here, many found it offensive...

same difference?

cheers

 

[marklee]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

Where do we then draw the line between stereotyping and racism?

Japanese are short, Chinese have slanted eyes, French don't shower, the list goes on.

Are these racists comments then? Or are we just unable to laugh at ourselves?

Unless it's as extreme as sending Jews to death camps or the KKK burning the blacks on stakes, the rest is all quite borderline isn't it?

What maybe borderline to you maybe extreme for another. This is afterall a public forum which can be accessed by anyone from any corner of the world as long as they have an internet connection.

When watching BPL/Serie A/Bundesliga etc etc, do you feel offended when a player strips his jersey off to celebrate a goal? Of course not. Yet it is the ref's job to promptly award the player a yellow card, because other people with a differnet culture or religion will find it offensive. BMW-sg may not have as far reaching influence as the BPL or La Liga, but what may seem so minor to you maybe offensive to others.

 

[edlms]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

Where do we then draw the line between stereotyping and racism?

Japanese are short, Chinese have slanted eyes, French don't shower, the list goes on.

Are these racists comments then? Or are we just unable to laugh at ourselves?

Unless it's as extreme as sending Jews to death camps or the KKK burning the blacks on stakes, the rest is all quite borderline isn't it?

you make a good point and it's well taken.
people who know me know i'm as self-depreciating as they come, and more than able to laugh off a good joke/slime when made.

but a comment is as racist or offensive as the reader/listener takes it to be. stereotyping may be deemed as a form of racism...
therefore, imho, in a public forum where people don't necessarily know each other, there must be some level of sensitivity... especially when speaking on "taboo" (in the sg context) topics...

cheers

 

[phil]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

Why are weddings held at void decks? I reckon it's a good idea. No need to rent a hall. It's culture if you ask me, i love to see it

 

[totoseow]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

if my good buddy gad comes n call me a chink....i will not bother. its him and me. the last thing i need is for someone else to come whisper to me that he thinks its racist.

btw...love u gad.

 

[edlms]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

if my good buddy gad comes n call me a chink....i will not bother. its him and me. the last thing i need is for someone else to come whisper to me that he thinks its racist.

btw...love u gad.

very true. but how about these 2 scenarios...?

1. if a random foreigner calls you a chink?
2. if you overhear a foreigner calling me a chink, and you are unaware of the relationship between me and the foreigner. on it's own, will you think that the word "chink" is derogatory? this is aside from the fact that the foreigner may be my best friend or my worst enemy.

cheers

 

[kenntona]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

does the bad taste only comes from the fact that the whistle blower doesn't come with clean hands or is not popular.

I dun think popularity is a significant issue, unless the perception is that most forumers who take sides with Bobby to get him to stay, or to petition for Centurion not to be banned (recently) are all putting their views here with only popularity in mind. My take is that there are some objective views being expressed. Now, not sitting on the same side of the fence does not mean that the other party's views are to be discredited straight away. There need to be some balancing act here, not absolute ruling that determines draconian measures in enforcement. Having said that, having a clean history helps in making strong statements credible, especially when it involves value judgement. No two ways about that.

in your previous post with the 2 similar questions, i take your point about the tone and the exchange between 2 individuals as the background and basis of assessing the intent of the content. but a joke between friends can still have negative (racist) connotations despite being a joke. and that joke, being on a public forum, can be interpreted as offensive by a public reader. remember recently there was a new guy who made comments about the ethnicity of his wife? between he and his wife, the descriptive terms used were casual and funny, but used here, many found it offensive...

Agree.

In a critical manner, the joke can be crude and tasteless, and perception of potential backlash should render some actions taken by the admin, which in this case, deemed appropriate with just a warning. However, the views necessitated by some other forumers have showed some degree of inconsistency insofar as casting judgment is concerned. For instance, one could well be posting "damn taxi drivers" or "women are lousy drivers hahaha" while flagging for elements of negative generalisation in Bobby's thread.

 

[chicane]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

What maybe borderline to you maybe extreme for another. This is afterall a public forum which can be accessed by anyone from any corner of the world as long as they have an internet connection.

When watching BPL/Serie A/Bundesliga etc etc, do you feel offended when a player strips his jersey off to celebrate a goal? Of course not. Yet it is the ref's job to promptly award the player a yellow card, because other people with a differnet culture or religion will find it offensive. BMW-sg may not have as far reaching influence as the BPL or La Liga, but what may seem so minor to you maybe offensive to others.

Extreme or just mere intolerence? Different people have different thresholds, different points of view. Who's right, who's wrong? The point I am trying to make is that there is no such thing as good judgement, good sense etc, it's like a switch. it's either on or off, no in-betweens.

Only way to do it is to lay down a set of rules: nothing on race/religion regardless of how minor it is or a free for all.

 

[totoseow]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

very true. but how about these 2 scenarios...?

1. if a random foreigner calls you a chink?
2. if you overhear a foreigner calling me a chink, and you are unaware of the relationship between me and the foreigner. on it's own, will you think that the word "chink" is derogatory? this is aside from the fact that the foreigner may be my best friend or my worst enemy.

cheers

1. if a random foreigner called me a chink...he is asking for it. the last ang mor who said my car looks ludicrous..had me calling him white trash back. but then does it mean i think that way of all white people? no. fact is anyone HOSTILE can call me anything...if he can dish it out, he better be prepared to take some from me.

2. u know how its likely to happen. this foreigner friend of yours is gonna yell at u from across the road "CHINK"....u think i m gonna just dash across n hammer the shitt out of him...? unlikely la. there will always be time to establish ur relationship with him....just like, if anyone seriously bothers to read the back-n-fro between omar and bobby in that thread...they would have established they r friendly jibes.

the difference here is that...i wun be going to u edwin...n whisper to u that...ur foreigner friend is trying to be racist. neither wud i tell my friends that ED's friend just called him chink.

 

[Oilman]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

Thanks for your clarification Ryan.

But 2 hrs on, 110+ views and not a single other response. Either I'm asking about something which is crystal-clear to others, or I over-estimated my popularity here.

Oh well.

Axl - I contributed to one of the 110+ and personally, I feel debates about race, religion, differences between men and women, superiority of NA versus turbo etc are a waste of time because there is no one answer acceptable to all. To me, it is not ever going to be "crystal clear" - that's the problem.

You and I have seen it countless times: when the points are split endlessly, it'll result in another shameful bust-up or a meaningless back-and-forth... page after page of big words and bruised egos. Basically everyone behaving like school children, then one or two start agreeing to disagree (EDIT: it is already happening in this very thread), others go off-topic to lessen the awkwardness, until nobody cares anymore or the thread gets closed. Maybe the bitching continues over coffee or MSN, who knows, but what's the point?

Ryan, who has the rights to this forum, sets the rules, so forum members (mere participants, really) can choose to play by those rules or look elsewhere. Many will test the boundaries and get away with it, others get a yellow card, some get banned and resurrected. Fair or no fair? Well, all I know is, we're still here by choice

 

[edlms]

Re: Jokes on race/religion

I dun think popularity is a significant issue, unless the perception is that most forumers who take sides with Bobby to get him to stay, or to petition for Centurion not to be banned (recently) are all putting their views here with only popularity in mind. My take is that there are some objective views being expressed. Now, not sitting on the same side of the fence does not mean that the other party's views are to be discredited straight away. There need to be some balancing act here, not absolute ruling that determines draconian measures in enforcement. Having said that, having a clean history helps in making strong statements credible, especially when it involves value judgement. No two ways about that.


Agree.

In a critical manner, the joke can be crude and tasteless, and perception of potential backlash should render some actions taken by the admin, which in this case, deemed appropriate with just a warning. However, the views necessitated by some other forumers have showed some degree of inconsistency insofar as casting judgment is concerned. For instance, one could well be posting "damn taxi drivers" or "women are lousy drivers hahaha" while flagging for elements of negative generalisation in Bobby's thread.

i'll be the first to admit i'm a hypocrite on a certain level... (in fact almost any level... ha ha... do as i say, not as i do...)
consequently, i dare to say that a lot of us have double standards and aren't afraid of judging others according to those double standards.

the problem is - if the double standards are within the accepted social norms of the individual's community, then it doesn't become hypocritical any more... or does it?

using your example, the condemnation of taxi drivers or women as bad drivers has reached a level of accepted social commentary that it (in most social circles) is taken for granted - rightly or wrongly.

the way i see it, it's a matter of degree in which we can/cannot or should/shouldn't make dubious comments.
as an extension, as regards the issue of "freedom of speech on the internet", i am of the view that you can say what you want, but be prepared for the backlash, if any. contradictory to my position of "be sensitive", but i think not cos it's a matter of choice...

cheers