Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
- Thread starter hilton
- Start date
fasterthanferrari
Well-Known Member
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT THOSE BIG BRAND OILS ARE SO GOOD THAT YOUR ENGINE IS THE BEST IT COULD BE?
Nobody ever said any oil has to be the absolutely best, but of cos we would want the best value for our money. Like I said, its mostly psychological, so even for somebody who doesn't know better, then they will go for the factory recommendations which are usually mainstreams.
CAN YOU DENY THE INCREASING SHIFT AWAY FROM MAINSTREAM OILS?
I am not in denial, and no, its not shifting. But before we continue further, you should list down the mainstream oil you are talking about because the ones I know of are all listed on Fortune 500 group of companies, most of them in the top 50 or so.
FOR 2 CARS OF THE SAME MADE AND AGE, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE ONE THAT SOLELY RUNS ON MAINSTREAM OILS?
You got to give a better reason than that, even for yourself. Engine don't typically fail just because it was running on a different oil, plus it was a good one too.
WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF MAINSTREAM OILS WHEN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE SHELF OF MOST ENGINE OIL RETAILERS?
Honestly, I've never bothered. But I am sure what you are getting at is about choices, and more choices is good for consumers because variety & innovation sells. It's as simple as that, and not because mainstream oils are failing.
WHO USUALLY MADE THE BIG INVENTION - GIANT OR SMALL FRY?
Have you look at the patent list lately? Yes, there are hundreds of thousands new ideas and 'inventions' thought out everyday/month/year, but who are the ones putting it out into the market for real use.
OK. I have answered all your questions to my best ability. Can you help answer my 2nd question that you'd missed earlier about reversibility. Thanks and if you could do without caps and red (its quite strainful to the eyes in my dark room here at this time) that would really be appreciated.
hilton;313346 said:
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT THOSE BIG BRAND OILS ARE SO GOOD THAT YOUR ENGINE IS THE BEST IT COULD BE?
Nobody ever said any oil has to be the absolutely best, but of cos we would want the best value for our money. Like I said, its mostly psychological, so even for somebody who doesn't know better, then they will go for the factory recommendations which are usually mainstreams.
CAN YOU DENY THE INCREASING SHIFT AWAY FROM MAINSTREAM OILS?
I am not in denial, and no, its not shifting. But before we continue further, you should list down the mainstream oil you are talking about because the ones I know of are all listed on Fortune 500 group of companies, most of them in the top 50 or so.
FOR 2 CARS OF THE SAME MADE AND AGE, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE ONE THAT SOLELY RUNS ON MAINSTREAM OILS?
You got to give a better reason than that, even for yourself. Engine don't typically fail just because it was running on a different oil, plus it was a good one too.
WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF MAINSTREAM OILS WHEN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE SHELF OF MOST ENGINE OIL RETAILERS?
Honestly, I've never bothered. But I am sure what you are getting at is about choices, and more choices is good for consumers because variety & innovation sells. It's as simple as that, and not because mainstream oils are failing.
WHO USUALLY MADE THE BIG INVENTION - GIANT OR SMALL FRY?
Have you look at the patent list lately? Yes, there are hundreds of thousands new ideas and 'inventions' thought out everyday/month/year, but who are the ones putting it out into the market for real use.
OK. I have answered all your questions to my best ability. Can you help answer my 2nd question that you'd missed earlier about reversibility. Thanks and if you could do without caps and red (its quite strainful to the eyes in my dark room here at this time) that would really be appreciated.
PerverTT
Well-Known Member
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
Personally I didn't have good experience with Mobil 1 and Helix Ultra. Both my previous Lancer and Mazda 323 worn off considerably and no better than any others after 4-6 years regularly on these oils.... That's true my previous rides regularly on Mobil 1 were badly worn after 4 year. /QUOTE]
Fair enough, hilton. I wouldn't continue using a product if it damaged my car, assuming it was used in the manner intended.
I don't know if you've heard of the million mile test undertaken by Mobil's Research Centre in New Jersey in the early 1990's. They took a stock 1990 BMW 325i (which means an E30), tanked it on Mobil 1, and put it on rollers for 4 years, running up just over 1 million miles of 1.6 million km in the process. The story was reported both in BMCCA's Roundel magazine and in BMW magazine (2/1999 issue). The latter source reported the story in the following fashion:
"The bulk of the million miles, equivalent to 1.6 million kilometres, was covered at speeds of 50 to 85 mph in a simulated but severe freeway driving test. At all times, the car was maintained according to the manufacturer's exact recommendations.
On pulling down the 3 series engine, the amazing thing was that the engineers found nothing to report. There was no significant wear on any components, virtually no cylinder deposits or residues in the sump or upper cylinder area, and no scoring or wear lines on cylinders or pistons. After a million non-stop miles, most engine parts were still within the manufacturer's tolerances for new components, yet the crankshaft had turned over a billion revolutions. The engine could have gone running for far longer."
The test was also discussed in a rivernet forum and the following is part of the exchange:
"From: [email protected]
Subject: Million mile Bimmer
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997
Okay, okay, I know I mentioned this before, but for our friends outside of the USA
and for anyone who wants more detail, here it goes...
The March '97 issue of the Roundel has a story on a 1990 325i coupe that was a
test vehicle for Mobil 1 and Mobil Super Unleaded.
The facts:
Total mileage: 1,005,000 miles
After break-in (1,200 miles) only 5W-30 Mobil 1 and Mobil Super Unleaded were used.
BMW maintenance and service requirements followed completely.
Test run on an outdoor instrumented roll stand (to subject the car to changing weather conditions).
Hourly speed cycle was 75% at 80-85mph and 25% at 50-55mph.
The test was run over a 4 year period night-and-day schedule equivalent to 66 years of typical American driving.
The only failures:
2 differentials,
1 drive shaft,
1 water pump and
1 automatic transmission.
*No engine parts failed*.
Fuel injectors changed at 680,000 miles because 1 showed signs of deposits.
After the test, the engine was removed and disassembled for inspection:
"The engine was extremely clean and free of deposits.
There were no visible top-of-stroke cylinder ridges.
Cam lobes and valve guides showed little wear and were in excellent operating
condition. (The cam shaft rotated over a *billion* times during the test).
With 2 exceptions, all the engine parts were within BMW specifications.
The exceptions were...
The No. 2 piston ring end gaps were .004" over.
Two con rod bearings were .0008" over."
After the tear-down, the engine was reassembled, the car was driven from New Jersey to
Las Vegas and back, and then shipped to Europe for "display and touring purposes". BMW
inspected the engine and issued a paper on the test.
Now I know skeptics would point out things like the fact that nothing is mentioned about cold
starts and most engine wear occurs during that time. However, I think that all in all this is still
very compelling and I personally will be switching to Mobil 1 oil at my next service.
FWIW, I may end up putting the tear-down pictures on my web site.
Ken Potter
'97 tiA - Arctic Silver - still all original"
What I'm interested in asking is this - if Mobil 1 is indeed a crap oil capable of damaging engines, how did it manage to pass the above testing regime with seemingly flying colours? Given that BMW AG has no known commercial relationship with Mobil (as it does with Castrol, a Mobil competitor), why would it lend credence to Mobil's experiment by publishing the findings in its own magazine? Has your own product been subjected to a comparable testing process?
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
from the BITOG forum, it seems that mobil 1 has revised its base stock from a Group IV to a Group III, so i'm not sure if Mobil 1 these days would be as good as before.
personally, i've switched from mobil 1 to amsoil then redline oils for my last 2 oil changes.
from the BITOG forum, it seems that mobil 1 has revised its base stock from a Group IV to a Group III, so i'm not sure if Mobil 1 these days would be as good as before.
personally, i've switched from mobil 1 to amsoil then redline oils for my last 2 oil changes.
futron.sim
Well-Known Member
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
Me? Nay. The industry I am working in has absolutely nothing to do with cars and neither do I have any part-time job that deals with car stuffs.
It just that I am very interested in finding the best stuff for my car and thus I spend alot of time trying out new stuffs and reading up articles/forums etc.
This is why I mention eariler than Boron based lubrication is pioneer by a scientist in US department of energy. Its too early to tell if the lubricants based of boron CLS (crystal lattice strucutre) is effective but its very promising because of the work done by that scientist.
Not all additives are snake oil stuff. Additives based on Zinc, molybdenium has been around for ages and is known to work. Most of our engine oil contains zinc based compounds.
For other lubricant additives like slick 50, Prolong, Motorup etc, I don't have much confident. If these products are sued by the US Federal trade Comission for false advertising, I don't think the products are effective in anyway. Btw, Bluw Coral is the company behind slick50. Thus I would stay away from blue coral products as well.
centurion;313455 said:
Me? Nay. The industry I am working in has absolutely nothing to do with cars and neither do I have any part-time job that deals with car stuffs.
It just that I am very interested in finding the best stuff for my car and thus I spend alot of time trying out new stuffs and reading up articles/forums etc.
This is why I mention eariler than Boron based lubrication is pioneer by a scientist in US department of energy. Its too early to tell if the lubricants based of boron CLS (crystal lattice strucutre) is effective but its very promising because of the work done by that scientist.
Not all additives are snake oil stuff. Additives based on Zinc, molybdenium has been around for ages and is known to work. Most of our engine oil contains zinc based compounds.
For other lubricant additives like slick 50, Prolong, Motorup etc, I don't have much confident. If these products are sued by the US Federal trade Comission for false advertising, I don't think the products are effective in anyway. Btw, Bluw Coral is the company behind slick50. Thus I would stay away from blue coral products as well.
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
I am seriously thinking of getting about 5 bottles to try together with a few friends. The FEDEX shipping is flat at EURO148 up to 5kg.
I am open to anyone (max 10 more) who is interested and shipping charges on me. That is pay only SGD115 per bottle (i.e. EURO49.90 + 7% import GST) with no obligation.
Anyone?
I am seriously thinking of getting about 5 bottles to try together with a few friends. The FEDEX shipping is flat at EURO148 up to 5kg.
I am open to anyone (max 10 more) who is interested and shipping charges on me. That is pay only SGD115 per bottle (i.e. EURO49.90 + 7% import GST) with no obligation.
Anyone?
futron.sim;313591 said:
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
"It will be helpful if you can list the other factors as well. I have no idea, really."
Well I was using Mobil 1 10W30 for consecutive 45k after my 5k. My engine is noticeably smoother after OCT at 10k, then 9k ... and all the way to 6k. Not a good news - the typical 10k OCT is not good enough for supposedly good oil like this. Then changed driver seat with a friend having the same made who is regular on Carlube 5W40 with Oil Extreme™ at 5k OCT, his ride is clearly smoother than mine.
What does this speak of mainstream oil like Mobil 1? I suspect many regularly on Shell and BP are not any better. You think fortune 500 giants selling most of our petrol must be necessary producing the best engine oil for street cars. On the contrary, I suspect many of them are more interested in their gas revenue as compared to the peanut sale from engine oils. Increasing alternatives and their success might be speaking weaknesses of existing choice, perhaps, which no amount of commercial and bigname standing can protect for too long a time.
We are not talking about why engine fails here. Rather, engine protection is never based on brandname but the effectiveness of its additives and base oil experienced from typical driving profile of street cars. The million-mile test seems to me more an extremely expensive commercial unless we can find someone nearer to tell me his ride on the 10th year is as good as new, including my friend, if you are regular on Mobil 1.
"It will be helpful if you can list the other factors as well. I have no idea, really."
Well I was using Mobil 1 10W30 for consecutive 45k after my 5k. My engine is noticeably smoother after OCT at 10k, then 9k ... and all the way to 6k. Not a good news - the typical 10k OCT is not good enough for supposedly good oil like this. Then changed driver seat with a friend having the same made who is regular on Carlube 5W40 with Oil Extreme™ at 5k OCT, his ride is clearly smoother than mine.
What does this speak of mainstream oil like Mobil 1? I suspect many regularly on Shell and BP are not any better. You think fortune 500 giants selling most of our petrol must be necessary producing the best engine oil for street cars. On the contrary, I suspect many of them are more interested in their gas revenue as compared to the peanut sale from engine oils. Increasing alternatives and their success might be speaking weaknesses of existing choice, perhaps, which no amount of commercial and bigname standing can protect for too long a time.
We are not talking about why engine fails here. Rather, engine protection is never based on brandname but the effectiveness of its additives and base oil experienced from typical driving profile of street cars. The million-mile test seems to me more an extremely expensive commercial unless we can find someone nearer to tell me his ride on the 10th year is as good as new, including my friend, if you are regular on Mobil 1.
futron.sim
Well-Known Member
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
PerverTT;313562 said:Personally I didn't have good experience with Mobil 1 and Helix Ultra. Both my previous Lancer and Mazda 323 worn off considerably and no better than any others after 4-6 years regularly on these oils.... That's true my previous rides regularly on Mobil 1 were badly worn after 4 year. /QUOTE]
Fair enough, hilton. I wouldn't continue using a product if it damaged my car, assuming it was used in the manner intended.
I don't know if you've heard of the million mile test undertaken by Mobil's Research Centre in New Jersey in the early 1990's. They took a stock 1990 BMW 325i (which means an E30), tanked it on Mobil 1, and put it on rollers for 4 years, running up just over 1 million miles of 1.6 million km in the process. The story was reported both in BMCCA's Roundel magazine and in BMW magazine (2/1999 issue). The latter source reported the story in the following fashion:
"The bulk of the million miles, equivalent to 1.6 million kilometres, was covered at speeds of 50 to 85 mph in a simulated but severe freeway driving test. At all times, the car was maintained according to the manufacturer's exact recommendations.
On pulling down the 3 series engine, the amazing thing was that the engineers found nothing to report. There was no significant wear on any components, virtually no cylinder deposits or residues in the sump or upper cylinder area, and no scoring or wear lines on cylinders or pistons. After a million non-stop miles, most engine parts were still within the manufacturer's tolerances for new components, yet the crankshaft had turned over a billion revolutions. The engine could have gone running for far longer."
The test was also discussed in a rivernet forum and the following is part of the exchange:
"From: [email protected]
Subject: Million mile Bimmer
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997
Okay, okay, I know I mentioned this before, but for our friends outside of the USA
and for anyone who wants more detail, here it goes...
The March '97 issue of the Roundel has a story on a 1990 325i coupe that was a
test vehicle for Mobil 1 and Mobil Super Unleaded.
The facts:
Total mileage: 1,005,000 miles
After break-in (1,200 miles) only 5W-30 Mobil 1 and Mobil Super Unleaded were used.
BMW maintenance and service requirements followed completely.
Test run on an outdoor instrumented roll stand (to subject the car to changing weather conditions).
Hourly speed cycle was 75% at 80-85mph and 25% at 50-55mph.
The test was run over a 4 year period night-and-day schedule equivalent to 66 years of typical American driving.
The only failures:
2 differentials,
1 drive shaft,
1 water pump and
1 automatic transmission.
*No engine parts failed*.
Fuel injectors changed at 680,000 miles because 1 showed signs of deposits.
After the test, the engine was removed and disassembled for inspection:
"The engine was extremely clean and free of deposits.
There were no visible top-of-stroke cylinder ridges.
Cam lobes and valve guides showed little wear and were in excellent operating
condition. (The cam shaft rotated over a *billion* times during the test).
With 2 exceptions, all the engine parts were within BMW specifications.
The exceptions were...
The No. 2 piston ring end gaps were .004" over.
Two con rod bearings were .0008" over."
After the tear-down, the engine was reassembled, the car was driven from New Jersey to
Las Vegas and back, and then shipped to Europe for "display and touring purposes". BMW
inspected the engine and issued a paper on the test.
Now I know skeptics would point out things like the fact that nothing is mentioned about cold
starts and most engine wear occurs during that time. However, I think that all in all this is still
very compelling and I personally will be switching to Mobil 1 oil at my next service.
FWIW, I may end up putting the tear-down pictures on my web site.
Ken Potter
'97 tiA - Arctic Silver - still all original
What I'm interested in asking is this - if Mobil 1 is indeed a crap oil capable of damaging engines, how did it manage to pass the above testing regime with seemingly flying colours? Given that BMW AG has no known commercial relationship with Mobil (as it does with Castrol, a Mobil competitor), why would it lend credence to Mobil's experiment by publishing the findings in its own magazine? Has your own product been subjected to a comparable testing process?
Hoho, interesting article. However, the article lack certain information.
1. How many cold starts did the engine went thru and the interval? This is particularly important because most of the wear and tear occurs during cold starts when there is a lack of lubrication in the engine.
2. Are the rollers calibrated to reflect actual road conditions esp. the load the engine will experience when operating.
3. Hows the driving pattern? Hard acceleration to redline constantly or just limited to 2-2.5K RPM?
I believe BMW engines are long lasting when maintained properly. However, I personally do not think such tests are accurate representation real life scenarios. Even when an engine is properly maintained, a rebuilt is necessary around 200-300K miles.
PerverTT
Well-Known Member
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
The million mile test that the BMW 325i was put to is not without its shortcomings.
It was conducted in-house by Mobil rather than by an independent body. There wasn't another control car of identical specifications being tested at the same time, with a different oil. And yes, I don't think that anyone will argue that 1 million miles on rollers is the same as the same distance on the road.Ken Potter himself pointed out that the test cannot replicate the repeated cold starts that inflicts maximum wear to an engine.
Does that mean that the test is worthless and that no valid conclusions can be drawn? And what does the test actually tell us about Mobil 1? After all, 1 million miles is still a long distance for any engine to cover.
Does it allow Mobil to say that its product is better than anybody else's?
Not in my book.
Does it mean that the same test outcomes cannot be replicated using another oil?
Again, not in my book. I would be amazed if there was no other quality engine oil on the market that would leave the 325i with a clean and mechanically sound engine after clocking 1 million miles.
Is it indicative of a manufacturer that is supremely confident of its product?
I would certainly think so. To the extent that Mobil has laid open the basis of the test so that anyone who doubts the validity of its findings can replicate the test to verify Mobil's findings.
Synthetic oils like Mobil 1 have been on the market for over a decade, so if it was a rubbish product, or if it did not live up to its claims, then these shortcomings would almost certainly be exposed by a critical customer base. The market for such products is essentially a conservative one (as you are probably finding out). People stick to a tried and tested product and are generally reluctant to switch to a newer product unless there is indisputable evidence that the new product is better.
By evidence, I mean something more concrete than "I used Mobil 1 on my last 2 cars and it totally fucked up the engine." And it doesn't necessarily mean buying a new BMW and running it for 4 years on rollers. Submit the product for testing against rival products by an independent and recognised body. Lay open the basis of the test so that everybody can see how it was done.
And if the findings of this type of test show BORPower to be markedly better than its rivals, word will get around. You won't even need to advertise, customers will beat a path to your door.
The million mile test that the BMW 325i was put to is not without its shortcomings.
It was conducted in-house by Mobil rather than by an independent body. There wasn't another control car of identical specifications being tested at the same time, with a different oil. And yes, I don't think that anyone will argue that 1 million miles on rollers is the same as the same distance on the road.Ken Potter himself pointed out that the test cannot replicate the repeated cold starts that inflicts maximum wear to an engine.
Does that mean that the test is worthless and that no valid conclusions can be drawn? And what does the test actually tell us about Mobil 1? After all, 1 million miles is still a long distance for any engine to cover.
Does it allow Mobil to say that its product is better than anybody else's?
Not in my book.
Does it mean that the same test outcomes cannot be replicated using another oil?
Again, not in my book. I would be amazed if there was no other quality engine oil on the market that would leave the 325i with a clean and mechanically sound engine after clocking 1 million miles.
Is it indicative of a manufacturer that is supremely confident of its product?
I would certainly think so. To the extent that Mobil has laid open the basis of the test so that anyone who doubts the validity of its findings can replicate the test to verify Mobil's findings.
Synthetic oils like Mobil 1 have been on the market for over a decade, so if it was a rubbish product, or if it did not live up to its claims, then these shortcomings would almost certainly be exposed by a critical customer base. The market for such products is essentially a conservative one (as you are probably finding out). People stick to a tried and tested product and are generally reluctant to switch to a newer product unless there is indisputable evidence that the new product is better.
By evidence, I mean something more concrete than "I used Mobil 1 on my last 2 cars and it totally fucked up the engine." And it doesn't necessarily mean buying a new BMW and running it for 4 years on rollers. Submit the product for testing against rival products by an independent and recognised body. Lay open the basis of the test so that everybody can see how it was done.
And if the findings of this type of test show BORPower to be markedly better than its rivals, word will get around. You won't even need to advertise, customers will beat a path to your door.
fasterthanferrari
Well-Known Member
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
I have no idea why you kept insisting the impression given are that big name mainstream oils are the best oils and that most ppl are mistaken and they shouldn't be because there are more choices now than before.
In the beginning , all we wanted to know was how good a claim was BORPower until you mentioned how one mainstream oil you were using ended up destroying engines on both your car.
OK, let's put everything else aside and begin over again, just talking about BORPower now. I'll provide you with some test below:
1. Big name mainstream oil + BORPower
2. Superior alternative oil + BORPower
3. Crappy unknown brand oil + BORPower
Tell me, which one will have a better protection? There is no gut feel here, we are looking for good argument and reasoning.
Finally, let's say you'd convinced us to try BORPower and after sometime, I think I may not like it for whatever reasons or that I may want to try another additive without the influence of the residing BORPower, how do I remove it? Will an engine flush work since this is a coating treatment that you had mentioned.
hilton;313941 said:
I have no idea why you kept insisting the impression given are that big name mainstream oils are the best oils and that most ppl are mistaken and they shouldn't be because there are more choices now than before.
In the beginning , all we wanted to know was how good a claim was BORPower until you mentioned how one mainstream oil you were using ended up destroying engines on both your car.
OK, let's put everything else aside and begin over again, just talking about BORPower now. I'll provide you with some test below:
1. Big name mainstream oil + BORPower
2. Superior alternative oil + BORPower
3. Crappy unknown brand oil + BORPower
Tell me, which one will have a better protection? There is no gut feel here, we are looking for good argument and reasoning.
Finally, let's say you'd convinced us to try BORPower and after sometime, I think I may not like it for whatever reasons or that I may want to try another additive without the influence of the residing BORPower, how do I remove it? Will an engine flush work since this is a coating treatment that you had mentioned.
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
OK by now the argument begins to break when insisting additives must be snake oils if bigbrand are not using them and their mainstream oils are the only solution for best engine protection.
Hence, I am open to BORPower, particularly when it does not appears as absurd as some commercials we see in the media. But I am not expert in BORPower as much as anyone here referring to the available info. Though there are available users with several bimmers feedback, unfortunately are mostly non-English. Will let you know if happened anyone of us tried.
OK by now the argument begins to break when insisting additives must be snake oils if bigbrand are not using them and their mainstream oils are the only solution for best engine protection.
Hence, I am open to BORPower, particularly when it does not appears as absurd as some commercials we see in the media. But I am not expert in BORPower as much as anyone here referring to the available info. Though there are available users with several bimmers feedback, unfortunately are mostly non-English. Will let you know if happened anyone of us tried.
Hugo39
Well-Known Member
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
I am a newbie and I want to stay away from the main stream oil discussion. However I want to offer my 2 cents worth .......
1) Start of with the basics.....lubrication works because a thin flim of oil keeps moving metals apart.
2) Most wear occurs at start up where the oil flim is not present and there is direct metal to metal contact and rubbing. So i am not surprised by the "good" results of the Mobile 1 test of a BMW running on rollers.
3) BorPower offers a thin coating of boron diamond powder (MCDP) on metal and being hard and slippery, can help to reduce the damage during start up when no oil film is present. Quote :-
"The nano lubricant additive BORPower® from NNT contains with MCDP exactly this type of nano-particles. BORPower® covers frictional metal surfaces with layers of MCDP nano-particles that are slippery, extremely resistant and long-lasting. Normally, such coatings require expensive surface refinement equipment such physical vapour deposition. "
If the MCDP crystals are 400 nanometer big from the picture on their web site, then it is likely that the coating is a few crystals thick. Therefore to answer "fasterthanferrari", it is not likely that you can get rid of the stuff once it is deposited on your engine's metal parts. It will probably go away after a few oil change.
So the question that bear asking is what does the MCDP do to reduce friction when the engine is running and the moving parts is separated by a thin flim of oil? If it does not reduce the friction and allow increase of power, how does it save on fuel consumption?
So that is my 2 cents worth of sharing with fellow BMW fans and if my lub theory is not that correct....it is probably faded from the many years since i left the classroom. Cheers!
I am a newbie and I want to stay away from the main stream oil discussion. However I want to offer my 2 cents worth .......
1) Start of with the basics.....lubrication works because a thin flim of oil keeps moving metals apart.
2) Most wear occurs at start up where the oil flim is not present and there is direct metal to metal contact and rubbing. So i am not surprised by the "good" results of the Mobile 1 test of a BMW running on rollers.
3) BorPower offers a thin coating of boron diamond powder (MCDP) on metal and being hard and slippery, can help to reduce the damage during start up when no oil film is present. Quote :-
"The nano lubricant additive BORPower® from NNT contains with MCDP exactly this type of nano-particles. BORPower® covers frictional metal surfaces with layers of MCDP nano-particles that are slippery, extremely resistant and long-lasting. Normally, such coatings require expensive surface refinement equipment such physical vapour deposition. "
If the MCDP crystals are 400 nanometer big from the picture on their web site, then it is likely that the coating is a few crystals thick. Therefore to answer "fasterthanferrari", it is not likely that you can get rid of the stuff once it is deposited on your engine's metal parts. It will probably go away after a few oil change.
So the question that bear asking is what does the MCDP do to reduce friction when the engine is running and the moving parts is separated by a thin flim of oil? If it does not reduce the friction and allow increase of power, how does it save on fuel consumption?
So that is my 2 cents worth of sharing with fellow BMW fans and if my lub theory is not that correct....it is probably faded from the many years since i left the classroom. Cheers!
futron.sim
Well-Known Member
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
An engine flush will remove some of the coating. If not, engine oil change will as well. Although the coating reduces friction, it does not elimiate friction 100% (its impossible). There will still be some wear and tear. With sufficient time, the coating will be gone unless it is replenished.
The same goes for those molybedium or zinc based coatings. They are not permanent and must be replenished from time to time.
fasterthanferrari;314110 said:
An engine flush will remove some of the coating. If not, engine oil change will as well. Although the coating reduces friction, it does not elimiate friction 100% (its impossible). There will still be some wear and tear. With sufficient time, the coating will be gone unless it is replenished.
The same goes for those molybedium or zinc based coatings. They are not permanent and must be replenished from time to time.
fasterthanferrari
Well-Known Member
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
Car manufacturers are already applying some form of coatings on the piston sleeves and cylinder walls. As it is getting more widspread as the more cost effective way of reducing friction wear and improving fuel consumption, can engine oil treatments make further improvements to those as well?
Car manufacturers are already applying some form of coatings on the piston sleeves and cylinder walls. As it is getting more widspread as the more cost effective way of reducing friction wear and improving fuel consumption, can engine oil treatments make further improvements to those as well?
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
It's matter of how soon the engine bore wears out regardless of engine design and oil technologies. You mean factory engine coating can stay on.
Perhaps, the solution left to reduce the wear of engine bore might be additives, be it from original oil or added on. Question here is does BORPower ever has a better potential?
It's matter of how soon the engine bore wears out regardless of engine design and oil technologies. You mean factory engine coating can stay on.
Perhaps, the solution left to reduce the wear of engine bore might be additives, be it from original oil or added on. Question here is does BORPower ever has a better potential?
fasterthanferrari;315662 said:
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
Thot this reply is quite unassuming. Seems many prefer remaining silent about the weaknesses of current pre-mixed oils but can be quite vocal against self-help additives. Will be bringing in a carton - anyone interested?
--- Koray CANDIR wrote:
The amount of 250ml is an optimum amount for engines that require 5lt or
less engine oil. This amount proves to be sufficient to last. If an excess
amount remains in the engine, it will be floating at the bottom of the
engine case which is also the same for the engine oil itself. So there won't
be any reduction in the ball-bearing effect. After oil change, there
still may occur small discrepancies in the reduction of temperature as the
floating excess particles help to reduce the temperature. But if and only if
the engine is opened during an oil change and it is cleaned than, you will
need to apply a whole bottle of BORPower again.
I should also mention that, a further reduction of the fuel consumption of
the vehicle and a further increase of the performance can be expected when
BORPower is used more than 250ml or after oil changes, but at marginal
levels. For best results at a reasonable price, we recommend 250ml BORPower
per 5 liters of engine oil. In spite of that, we still have got customers
who are not price sensitive, applying higher amounts (2-3 bottles) or
applying BORPower after each oil change.
I believe you or other car enthusiasts in your club have already got
technicians with services garages that conduct dynamometer tests. You'll be
able to observe results either on your car's board computers or taking the
car to a dynamometer test. Of course, we recommend before and after
tests (not just one of them) to see the results. On your car's board
computer you may observe the decrease in consumption while driving at a
constant speed. And by dynamometer tests, you'll be able to observe and get
fascinated by the horsepower increase. You may further take your car to a
carbondioxide emission test and see the decrease in emission.
I am fond of answering such details so forgive me if I have written more
than you have asked.
Best regards,
Koray CANDIR
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 7:44 AM, < ......> wrote:
> After the treatment, does it mean the engine bore no longer has the
> benefit of "ball-bearings" from floating nano particles after oil
> change?
Thot this reply is quite unassuming. Seems many prefer remaining silent about the weaknesses of current pre-mixed oils but can be quite vocal against self-help additives. Will be bringing in a carton - anyone interested?
--- Koray CANDIR wrote:
The amount of 250ml is an optimum amount for engines that require 5lt or
less engine oil. This amount proves to be sufficient to last. If an excess
amount remains in the engine, it will be floating at the bottom of the
engine case which is also the same for the engine oil itself. So there won't
be any reduction in the ball-bearing effect. After oil change, there
still may occur small discrepancies in the reduction of temperature as the
floating excess particles help to reduce the temperature. But if and only if
the engine is opened during an oil change and it is cleaned than, you will
need to apply a whole bottle of BORPower again.
I should also mention that, a further reduction of the fuel consumption of
the vehicle and a further increase of the performance can be expected when
BORPower is used more than 250ml or after oil changes, but at marginal
levels. For best results at a reasonable price, we recommend 250ml BORPower
per 5 liters of engine oil. In spite of that, we still have got customers
who are not price sensitive, applying higher amounts (2-3 bottles) or
applying BORPower after each oil change.
I believe you or other car enthusiasts in your club have already got
technicians with services garages that conduct dynamometer tests. You'll be
able to observe results either on your car's board computers or taking the
car to a dynamometer test. Of course, we recommend before and after
tests (not just one of them) to see the results. On your car's board
computer you may observe the decrease in consumption while driving at a
constant speed. And by dynamometer tests, you'll be able to observe and get
fascinated by the horsepower increase. You may further take your car to a
carbondioxide emission test and see the decrease in emission.
I am fond of answering such details so forgive me if I have written more
than you have asked.
Best regards,
Koray CANDIR
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 7:44 AM, < ......> wrote:
> After the treatment, does it mean the engine bore no longer has the
> benefit of "ball-bearings" from floating nano particles after oil
> change?
fasterthanferrari
Well-Known Member
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
I find his statement rather confusing, is he translating from Turkish? What exactly constitutes excess oil and where does excess oil usually goes to other than the bottom?
So this additive has transformed from being some sort of coating to floating nano ball bearings that may occur in small discrepancies for the reduction of temperature...how interesting indeed. So why the need for a whole bottle of mixture to begin with if the majority of the excess additive are going to be drained away while still maintaining good perfomance after the next oil change?
hilton;317472 said:
I find his statement rather confusing, is he translating from Turkish? What exactly constitutes excess oil and where does excess oil usually goes to other than the bottom?
So this additive has transformed from being some sort of coating to floating nano ball bearings that may occur in small discrepancies for the reduction of temperature...how interesting indeed. So why the need for a whole bottle of mixture to begin with if the majority of the excess additive are going to be drained away while still maintaining good perfomance after the next oil change?
Re: Latest engine treatment additive - BORPower
Hey no hitting below the belt by picking people English.
Really waiting to hear the most skeptical comments but must be convincingly objective with conviction. Otherwise is just waste of time and no chance of dyno challenge. No wishy washy statement.
Hey no hitting below the belt by picking people English.
Really waiting to hear the most skeptical comments but must be convincingly objective with conviction. Otherwise is just waste of time and no chance of dyno challenge. No wishy washy statement.
