Need installer contact and speaker supplier

[powertorque]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

yes yes....pls post !! Congrats man...but hopefully dont let the bass overwhelm your fronts. Ge the installer to pull the bass to the front... !! u change your front components i hope ?!!

Hi,

May I know what do you mean by "pulling the bass to the front"?

Yes i did change front speakers to DLS Classic C6.

 

[powertorque]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Powertorque has very yummy stuff in front. DLS component speakers and Genesis amp to drive it.

He has chosen the venerable Sony XES M3 amp to drive the woofer.

Its like a classy country club that is getting a new bowling alley with heated swimming pool. the next thing is a glitzy restuarant and members lounge. (HEADUNIT!!!) Hahahha

Wow, with that last statement, you are really putting the heat on.....

As promised, I'm posting an update to the forum.....
Well, I finally got the car back at the end of the day. The result? See this? -> ......

The bass is great!!! It is a bit boomy for my liking but I will play around with the preamp settings over the weekend to see if I can make it tighter. Also, noticed that some "mid-bass" missing for some songs (e.g. Eagles Hell Freezes Over Track 5). Managed to get round this problem by increasing the bass setting on the HU. Not sure if this is the correct solution; will check with installer on my next visit.

this is what i've got installed since I embarked on the project:
1) DLS Classic C6 speakers for the front
2) Genesis Profile Two to drive the front speakers
3) Audiocontrol Three.1 preamp
4) Dynamat soundproofing for both doors
5) Cadence 10" subwoofer
6) Sony XES M3 2-ch amp driving the subwoofer
7) and all those cables and connectors.....(pls don't ask for details, I have absolutely no idea!!!) :ehhh:

Not the most expensive or best setup i'm sure but the sound i get now is a BIG improvement over the stock system. Total cost came to slightly over $3,000. I was experimenting a bit so went to two installers; first installer did items 1-4.

The sub was housed in a box that was custom-built by the installer. I am pretty impressed by the strong bass put out by this sealed-box solution (see iceman's earlier posts in this thread). Instead of facing the sub towards the back of the car, it is mounted to face the side. The reason is so that the cone won't get damaged (by the stuff that i keep in the boot!). The depth of the boot space is reduced by about half because of the box. The amps are mounted vertically and side-by-side on the back of the rear seats. So all the equipment cannot even be seen when the boot is open! Not that I mind...

Have been asked by the subwoofer installer to go back to retune the entire system after running in the speakers for about a month.

Anyone interested is most welcome to listen to it if I make the next meetup.

 

[blacky]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Hi PowerT,

Thanks you for such detail breakdown on yr ICE project ! Have few questions for u. hope u can help me answer as I embark on my search for my own upgrade.

1) Did u get all yr stuff done at Hong Guan ?
2) Does it really make a differnce with with or without a Pre-Amp ?
3) Any opportunity for a audition on yr ICE ?

Any one cre to comment on the above ?

BTW - Cool write up..U can be editor for some car mag dude !

Blacky

 

[__iceman__]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Pulling bass in front is know as upfront bass. I was explaining to rebture the other day... When we attend a concert, the bass guitar, kick drums are always in front of the audience. There are no instruments behind you. The only sound that comes from behind are the reflected sound from the concert hall, or room (by the way, that's the job of the rear speakers in ICE - just produce ambience only).

The peculiar thing in ICE is that the bass is always mounted in the trunk, and BEHIND you. A lot of setups end up sounding like the whole band is in front, but the poor drummer is tucked in the back of the room.

Fortunately, psychoacoustics allow for bass below 80Hz to be non-directional. For example, human ears cannot distinguish where the low low bass is coming from. If you hear low rumbling from a nearby train track or thunder, you can't immediately tell which side of your house its coming from, but if a lady screams, you immediately can tell which direction she walked into some dog poo.

The thing about bass is also that... the lower the freq, the more energy you need to reproduce it, and the more air volume you need to move it in order for it to have equal presence compared to the mid and high freqs. That's why subwoofers are so much bigger than mid ranges, and also sap so much more power.

The trick in ICE now is that.... get the sub to produce the power sapping rumbling deep bass that is non directional, and get your components to complement perfectly by taking over the slightly higher bass freqs that are directional, and 'take credit' for the entire bass output. Then it would appear that ALL the bass is coming from the front.

Ever attended the Bose demo from Atlas Hifi? They do a nice demo to show you that deep bass is never directional. They have tiny tiny cube speakers that seem to be able to produce deep bass... but the subwoofer can actually be hidden under a cupboard behind you. Same theory at work, and except that for the Bose systems, the entire setup has been tuned in terms of crossover levels, freq response, and port tuning (for bass box).

In the car, we have to tune ourselves, and that's where the fun begins! You have ever asked me why I don't like home audio, but prefer car audio. This is the reason! i don't want to buy something home and just sit and listen... you want to be able to customize and "move mountains" with your tinkering. Hahaha

So... upfront bass can be achieved by playing with the subwoofer gains, crossover point, and for the components, they need to be able to pump the directional bass freqs. The problem with components are... if you up the bass too much, it will distort. it distorts coz it can't take the power.

Power? Remember what I said earlier.. lowest freqs take up the MOST power.. so... if my components are playing FULL range all the way down to 20hz bass.. it means that a tremendous amt of power is taken up by producing redundant low low freqs that is sapping power big time!

I think your Genesis amp should have a high pass filter. You should cut off the front components at around 60hz (tune and hear), so that they work more efficiently, and most importantly, it is able to channel more energy into the trick higher bass freq they are supposed to do, and not producing redundant deep bass that the big daddy 10" is already producing in huge waves.

Er... sorry for the long post hor. You know that I love bass lah.

 

[__iceman__]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Hi PowerT,

Thanks you for such detail breakdown on yr ICE project ! Have few questions for u. hope u can help me answer as I embark on my search for my own upgrade.

1) Did u get all yr stuff done at Hong Guan ?
2) Does it really make a differnce with with or without a Pre-Amp ?
3) Any opportunity for a audition on yr ICE ?

Any one cre to comment on the above ?

BTW - Cool write up..U can be editor for some car mag dude !

Blacky

Blacky - the preamp serves the following purpose:

1. Allows the user to tune the sound. You get a few freq knobs that you can tailor the sound according to your car's acoustics, to compensate or reduce missing or overbearing tonal issues.

2. Allows the user to split a signal out for subwoofer use. For example, some headunits only have left/right channels for full range sound, but no dedicated subwoofer control, so the preamp takes the left right signals and sum the lower signal portions to output a signal specially for subwoofer use.

3. Allows you to tune the power level and crossover level of your subwoofer amplifier.

4. For BMWs, we have no signal level line outputs from the original headunit. Meaning if we connect an amplifier to the existing system, we have to tap the signal from the speaker wires into the amp! The speaker level output is dirty (got noise) and is very large in power... many amps will not accept this kind of input. A lot of preamps have this function where they will nicely take in a speaker output, and produce a cleaner RCA signal level output to your amps. You just give the preamp left and right speaker outputs, it gives you front L/R, rear L/R, and subwoofer RCA outputs!

5. If you have any aftermarket HU that has RCA output... the preamp can benefit that RCA output also! Some good preamps (like the audiocontrol) have 'line drivers' that can boost a 2V or 4V HU RCA signal to 8V or even 13V peak! This gives a very good clean signal that is high in signal to noise ratio for the amplifiers to work with.

Argh. We're getting into level matching... that's another A4 posting for another day... Hahahah

 

[powertorque]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Pulling bass in front is know as upfront bass. I was explaining to rebture the other day... When we attend a concert, the bass guitar, kick drums are always in front of the audience. There are no instruments behind you. The only sound that comes from behind are the reflected sound from the concert hall, or room (by the way, that's the job of the rear speakers in ICE - just produce ambience only).

...........................

I think your Genesis amp should have a high pass filter. You should cut off the front components at around 60hz (tune and hear), so that they work more efficiently, and most importantly, it is able to channel more energy into the trick higher bass freq they are supposed to do, and not producing redundant deep bass that the big daddy 10" is already producing in huge waves.

Er... sorry for the long post hor. You know that I love bass lah.

Long post? No worries at all. In fact, it is most enlightening. it's a pleasure to meet someone who's passionate about something, even more so when the passion happens to be similar - ICE!

I think you may have provided an answer to the issue I posed, that of a boomy bass. I find the bass too boomy now. What should I do? Tweaking the preamp settings did't seem to help. It does reduce the bass but it's not getting tighter. There seem to be a lot of lingering low freq, which cause the boominess I guess. I noticed the preamp setting for the crossover is about 60Hz. Wud changing that to a lower freq, say 40-50Hz help? The gain knob is at about 75%.

Re your suggestion to crossover the front speakers to the sub at 60Hz, won't that put more bass to the sub, creating even more boominess? I was thinking that I can some achieve a tighter bass from the front speakers, letting the sub provide that non-directional deeper bass.

 

[powertorque]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Hi PowerT,
..........
1) Did u get all yr stuff done at Hong Guan ?
2) Does it really make a differnce with with or without a Pre-Amp ?
3) Any opportunity for a audition on yr ICE ?
.......
BTW - Cool write up..U can be editor for some car mag dude !

Blacky

Hi Blacky,

iceman did a very nice job of answering yr questions. Yes, yes, sure can audition. I hope to make the May meetup.

My writeup very very layman. iceman's the expert!!! Trust me!

 

[__iceman__]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

I find the bass too boomy now. What should I do? Tweaking the preamp settings did't seem to help. It does reduce the bass but it's not getting tighter. There seem to be a lot of lingering low freq, which cause the boominess I guess. I noticed the preamp setting for the crossover is about 60Hz. Wud changing that to a lower freq, say 40-50Hz help? The gain knob is at about 75%.

Re your suggestion to crossover the front speakers to the sub at 60Hz, won't that put more bass to the sub, creating even more boominess? I was thinking that I can some achieve a tighter bass from the front speakers, letting the sub provide that non-directional deeper bass.

Crossing your sub at a lower freq - say 50hz will help as it reduces the amt of audible bass. From practical experience, I find that I can reduce a bit of boom if I lower the crossover point, and increase the gain a little to compensate.

Wat kind of 'tight' bass you talking about? The snap of a snare drum, the resonating pluck of a guitar (played loudly), the initial kick of a kickdrum? That should come from your 6.5 inch components. I was screwing around with my mids today to try to go for this... I switched off my sub, and forced the components to snap and kick. At the end of the session... hahah the mid could 'kick' the material of my jeans.

The idea is to let your components play as much bass as possible - loud, and without distortion. "Distortion" is the key word here as once the mid range is overstressed, everything breaks up. You have that distortion ceiling. In a normal setup without any high pass, the component plays full range. We go loud, and try to give a bit of bass boost, but usually find that there is a limit where distortion comes in rather quickly. That's because its trying to reproduce power sapping freqs like 20Hz, 30Hz.

In your case, you may want to up the bass settings in your HU/ bass freq in yr preamp, switch off the subwoofer and try to get component to kick. When the components are kicking, slowly add more and more subwoofer bass to complement and extend the low end.

I am thinking you have two concerns when you try to get kicking bass out of your front... you will hit the ceiling where the component is trying to kick, but starts to distort.

1. Your DLS speakers may be power hungry.
2. Yr genesis profile may not have that abundance of juice.

Therefore, if you'll need cut power wastage.. the components should be made to play low freqs of 20, 30, 40 hz, so high pass it away. You'll find that the distortion is now gone, and you can continue to push the envelope further. BTW, dun forget to try a variety of songs , not just your eagles coz just when you think you have bass that is just right, you put in another song and find that you overdid it (that's what happened to me).

Bass of 60Hz and below is barely audible. If the sub plays plenty of this, you will have much deep rumbling, not boominess. The boomy ones are 100Hz, 120Hz and for most car audio cabins, they have a resonant spike of 200hz, which likes to muddy up the vocals and detract from clarity.

So... if your sub plays the lows, and the boomy 100hz is managed by your components (which is smaller, and more subdued), you will be able to control better.

BTW, I not expert leh, you call me that and I'll have to curb my babbling of ICE nonsense liao. Still learning everyday and pulling my hair out slowly bit by bit. You never get it right the first, or even second time. Can you imagine wat kind of trials you wanna make if you add in the new factors that you may add individual time alignment (hey! bass alignment and summation!) and throw in 31 band EQ with more parametric EQ, and then try to juggle and balance gains of HU, processor/preamp, and the amp? Hahahah

 

[rebture]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Hi Iceman,

I'm completely lost trying to following this whole discussion, u guys are such experts! Seriously, I'll be v happy if i had PowerT's system. I heard Track 6 (Hotel) of Hell Freezes Over on his system and it was AWESOME. I never knew the song actually sounded like that, LOL! I'm convinced! I want the same config! Thomas is away for a month - that will give me time to save $$$!

Iceman, tx for the super referral.

Cheers,
rebture

 

[__iceman__]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

you sure a single 10 will do for you? How about R&B.. can't starve Mary j Blige, Usher, Craig David you know. Need bling bling bass in bling bling ride. y'noe wat I mean?

 

[rebture]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

aiyah, no bling bling budget lah. Just anything better than the existing system - I'll be v happy.

 

[powertorque]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Crossing your sub at a lower freq - say 50hz will help as it reduces the amt of audible bass. From practical experience, I find that I can reduce a bit of boom if I lower the crossover point, and increase the gain a little to compensate.

Wat kind of 'tight' bass you talking about? The snap of a snare drum, the resonating pluck of a guitar (played loudly), the initial kick of a kickdrum? That should come from your 6.5 inch components. I was screwing around with my mids today to try to go for this... I switched off my sub, and forced the components to snap and kick. At the end of the session... hahah the mid could 'kick' the material of my jeans.

..........

BTW, I not expert leh, you call me that and I'll have to curb my babbling of ICE nonsense liao. Still learning everyday and pulling my hair out slowly bit by bit. You never get it right the first, or even second time. Can you imagine wat kind of trials you wanna make if you add in the new factors that you may add individual time alignment (hey! bass alignment and summation!) and throw in 31 band EQ with more parametric EQ, and then try to juggle and balance gains of HU, processor/preamp, and the amp? Hahahah

Pls don't stop dishing out ICE advice ah, OK?

I guess I'm referring to the bass normally put out by the mids. Sorry to fall back on home audio but in those setup, that will be the bass coming out of the woofer in a 3-way speaker. I think freqs below 100Hz or 80Hz is normally diverted to the subwoofer. In a PC with those Creative 2.1 speakers (two satellites and a "subwoofer"), the bass wud be coming out of that "subwoofer". In fact, my $55 Creative "sub" plays very nice tight bass. Maybe becos it's not a high quality subwoofer, LOL! These were the old Cambridge Soundworks...not the current ones.....wonder if anyone has tried plugging one of these into a car audio.....sorry I digress....

BTW, I think u meant to say that the the components should NOT be made to play low freqs of 20, 30, 40 hz, correct?

I'll try what you did and see if I can get more bass out of the fronts. Thomas did mention my Genesis may not have enuf juice...hmmm....

Yes, I know what you saying about juggling the different components you have in your ride....shudder......so many variables....o man, i bet you having fun......heh....

 

[__iceman__]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

LOL, I have 2 pc sound systems at home. One's a el cheapo Altec lansing 2.1 system with a small sub, and the better one's an old Creative DTT3500 5.1 system.

The Creative one is actually only a 6" woofer inside, but in a tuned box that has a port. Its really efficient... I think only 30W RMS or less, but when I tuck in table my desk, against the wall, it punches so hard that my ceiling panels have vibration! Tuned boxes like these are designed as a package and sound good in such applications... while you hear boom boom 'tight' bass, there may not be a lot of resolution and details.

Cannot compare home and car lah. The car's a really tough environment to get really good sound, and that's why in high end systems usually you see a lot of tuning being done, and the car audio industry has so many preamps, EQs, processors etc to compensate.

In home audio, its ok for the sub to go up to 100 or 120Hz, or even 2 way bookshelf speakers can have sharp nice bass when its right in front of you, and imaging is not a problem if you sit in the sweet spot.

But... let's see... how difficult it will be if you:

1. Strip out the speakers from its housing, and put them into two very funny shaped metal enclousures (like car doors), and soundproof inside to try to make it more conducive.

2. When done, make left and right speaker FACING EACH OTHER instead of facing the audience.

3. put a subwoofer BEHIND you, encased in another cupboard (like a boot)

4. Try harness the energy and trick the audience to feel that the oodles of bass from the sub behind is coming from the front metal enclosures

5. Make the audience sit 3/4 way off centre, and ask them to spot the singer still coming from the dead centre.

6. Hang pieces of glass around you (car windows), and have carpeted floor, and a long carpeted treasure chest stretching from left side of your chair, and deep into the middle of the two speakers. (tranny tunnel)

and then wonder why this system can't sound as good as your neighbours hifi in the living room.

Hahahah

Dun talk about tuning liao... I just got home. Was there again today, 10am to 4pm tuning, this time using a RTA (Real Time Analyzer) many thanks to Thomas who was willing to spend time on a Sunday - was very surprised at the readings... finally managed to resolve it and get a flat response for the front, then move on to the rears, and then try to EQ my sub. The detail now is much much better... when the violin plays, I can hear the sound bouncing off the studio walls and back again into the mic.

Tomorrow - stripping doors again and adding deflex pads, to further trim any hint of stray resonances and hopefully tightening upfront bass even more.

 

[powertorque]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Hi Iceman,

I'm completely lost trying to following this whole discussion, u guys are such experts! Seriously, I'll be v happy if i had PowerT's system. I heard Track 6 (Hotel) of Hell Freezes Over on his system and it was AWESOME. I never knew the song actually sounded like that, LOL! I'm convinced! I want the same config! Thomas is away for a month - that will give me time to save $$$!

Iceman, tx for the super referral.

Cheers,
rebture

Hi rebture,

Glad your tag-alongs on the ICE hunt have not been in vain.....now looks like you've found something suitable.
Let me know when you want to go install.....I'll be back for a re-tune after running in the speakers, very likely at about the same time Thomas's back.

 

[powertorque]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

LOL, I have 2 pc sound systems at home. One's a el cheapo Altec lansing 2.1 system with a small sub, and the better one's an old Creative DTT3500 5.1 system.
....................

Tomorrow - stripping doors again and adding deflex pads, to further trim any hint of stray resonances and hopefully tightening upfront bass even more.

Yah lah, cannot compare home and car audio. Environment very very different.

Wow, some serious tuning you went thru today. Glad you got some good results.
Hope to get another chance to audition your system after it's fully tuned up.....am sure it'll be doubly awesome.

 

[FiftyFive]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Hi Guys... stumbled upon your discussion and man I must say.... I am completely lost. What wicked knowledge you guys have when it comes to ice.

I am wondering if someone would care to advise me please, I recently had some basic stuff done... ie... A pair of 6.5 components, 2/10" subs, 1/4 channel amp, a Monoblock and a 8 band pre-amp"... kept the HU original although and am contemplating of changing it soon.

It all sounded very good upon collecting the car from the installer. However, after a few months of running in, I am beginning to find "bass not enough punch, speakers too bright, absolutely no staging at all etc" Now I really understand the meaning of "ICE IS ADDICTIVE"... I really do not want to go out and start some buying spree again but would rather see how I can improve on my existing setup.

Can I start by tuning my pre-amp.... if so, how can I go about?

Would really appreciate any kind advise given... Thanks a million.

 

[powertorque]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

It all sounded very good upon collecting the car from the installer. However, after a few months of running in, I am beginning to find "bass not enough punch, speakers too bright, absolutely no staging at all etc" Now I really understand the meaning of "ICE IS ADDICTIVE"... I really do not want to go out and start some buying spree again but would rather see how I can improve on my existing setup.

Can I start by tuning my pre-amp.... if so, how can I go about?

Would really appreciate any kind advise given... Thanks a million.

Yes, I think it's better to see what can be done to the existing setup first before splurging money, which may not solve the problem if it's got nothing to do with the components in the first place.

I suspect the first two problems could be related to tuning. I suppose you did check the knobs on the pre-amp? Did any knob get accidentally adjusted? When I first installed my ICE, the installer put the pre-amp under my front passenger seat. Woah, bad idea!! The pre-amp knobs got kicked and my sound went all haywire. Now I've got it nicely tucked away in the boot.

I had similar problems when my ICE was installed. I guess every person has a different preference for how music should sound. My system had the treble set too high (music sounded "bright"; I was sound deaf by the time I completed my journey) and the subwoofer was pounding my seat. So this was what I did:

1) I tweaked the high and mid freq knobs on my pre-amp and brought them below 50%.
2) Increased the 125Hz knob to about 75%.
3) Reduced subwoofer output to about 50%. (you may not need to do this if you like louder bass)
4) Put "Sweep" (which I think is the crossover to the sub) to about 50Hz.
5) I didn't change my HU either. The Bass setting on the original HU is set to about 75-80%. Treble on the HU is reduced to 20%.

Now I'm getting the sound I wanted. The front speakers are producing punchier mid-bass.

As for staging, well, unless you have a sound processor installed, I don't know if it's possible to accurately place the soundstage.

Hope this helps. If not, suggest you go to a reputable installer like Hong Guan to seek help. Or come to the next meetup and have someone knowlegeable to check it out.

 

[rebture]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Wow, this is getting exciting. Yes, I'd love to look some of u expert Icemen up at the meetup to have a listen to your awesome systems. A good idea will be to bring my own favourite CDs to listen to particular tracks I'm familiar with, right?

Hope to see you guys soon.

 

[FiftyFive]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Yes, I think it's better to see what can be done to the existing setup first before splurging money, which may not solve the problem if it's got nothing to do with the components in the first place.

I suspect the first two problems could be related to tuning. I suppose you did check the knobs on the pre-amp? Did any knob get accidentally adjusted? When I first installed my ICE, the installer put the pre-amp under my front passenger seat. Woah, bad idea!! The pre-amp knobs got kicked and my sound went all haywire. Now I've got it nicely tucked away in the boot.

I had similar problems when my ICE was installed. I guess every person has a different preference for how music should sound. My system had the treble set too high (music sounded "bright"; I was sound deaf by the time I completed my journey) and the subwoofer was pounding my seat. So this was what I did:

1) I tweaked the high and mid freq knobs on my pre-amp and brought them below 50%.
2) Increased the 125Hz knob to about 75%.
3) Reduced subwoofer output to about 50%. (you may not need to do this if you like louder bass)
4) Put "Sweep" (which I think is the crossover to the sub) to about 50Hz.
5) I didn't change my HU either. The Bass setting on the original HU is set to about 75-80%. Treble on the HU is reduced to 20%.

Now I'm getting the sound I wanted. The front speakers are producing punchier mid-bass.

As for staging, well, unless you have a sound processor installed, I don't know if it's possible to accurately place the soundstage.

Hope this helps. If not, suggest you go to a reputable installer like Hong Guan to seek help. Or come to the next meetup and have someone knowlegeable to check it out.

Ah Powertorque... many thanks for the assistance... will work on it and let you know... wont be around next meetup.. off to BKK for business... cheers...

 

[__iceman__]

Re: Need installer contact and speaker supplier

Hi Guys... stumbled upon your discussion and man I must say.... I am completely lost. What wicked knowledge you guys have when it comes to ice.

I am wondering if someone would care to advise me please, I recently had some basic stuff done... ie... A pair of 6.5 components, 2/10" subs, 1/4 channel amp, a Monoblock and a 8 band pre-amp"... kept the HU original although and am contemplating of changing it soon.

It all sounded very good upon collecting the car from the installer. However, after a few months of running in, I am beginning to find "bass not enough punch, speakers too bright, absolutely no staging at all etc" Now I really understand the meaning of "ICE IS ADDICTIVE"... I really do not want to go out and start some buying spree again but would rather see how I can improve on my existing setup.

Can I start by tuning my pre-amp.... if so, how can I go about?

Would really appreciate any kind advise given... Thanks a million.

Sounds like you've been bitten by the ICE bug. Its an endless pursuit, but like powertorque says, you can start by retuning the preamp, gain levels, and crossover levels etc.

See lah, looks like we have a few addicts/potential addicts here. Maybe next meetup we can exchange tips and pursue the ever elusive sweet floating vocal / heart pounding effect in our cars... hahahah