Popping noise from exhaust

SMYUEN said:
Welbo said:
Knn......came to Siglap for ice-cream waffle (MY FAVOURITE!) also never sms me...
I whole night at home suck thumb!!!!!!!! :drool:
Will try to meet you guys next thursday after work but might have to work late so can't confirm.


Cheers!
8)


oppss... pai sey.. thot you would be sucking thumb at home so didnt want to disturb.. in case we inadvertently interfered with your household responsibilities.... kekekeke... :lol: :lol:

Doc, like so??
 
Whisky_Tango,


Hahahahaha... yeeah boy! He only got one so far... maybe 2nd "in the process"... kekekek


Where you get so cuutttee cartoon?
 
kenntona said:
SMYUEN said:
Dont so cheem lah... catch no balls...

Sucking thumb you know, farting you don't? Think of it as a series of farting...... if you disrupt the flow of gases, wouldn't the next burst be a louder pop?

Damn. I hate doing this. Where's my nuggets?

Ok ok.. think I understand it.. c'mon, you really REALLY need to forget about your nuggets. It ain't gonna help your waistline... I am being a concerned buddy..

:)
 
Doc,

yes, it is backfire.
no, not all backfires sound the same. there are at least 5 types and infinite range of sounds in between each major classification.
no, contrary to popular belief, the type of backfire you are experiencing is far far less dependent on AF richness or leanness than it is on throttle position and expansion ratio that combine to determine cylinder pressure. In fact for the given pressures, temperatures in the exhaust collector and the homogeneity of the mix at the point of exit from the cylinder, the aural violence of the backfire increases with the LEANness of the mix. The visual impact of the backfire increases with the RICHness of the mix.
no, it is not dependent on spark intervals and engine speeds. Spark intervals and valve timing are fixed within a very narrow range and changing engine speeds only change frequency and nothing else.

this is the short condensed reply that has been requested quite a bit recently. thought I would give it a shot. if you want to know more, just say the word.
 
SMYUEN said:
Whisky_Tango,


Hahahahaha... yeeah boy! He only got one so far... maybe 2nd "in the process"... kekekek


Where you get so cuutttee cartoon?

Click on the smiley icon and u can download it for free!
 
Whisky_Tango,

waaah... so cute!
 
RB,
It's PLEASE!

What "the word"... :slaphead:


Shaun,
Thanks, so it's backfiring.
Specifically:
Why is it happening in our cars?
Is it normal?
 
It is happening on your cars because the

1) expansion ratio (invesely fixed to compression ratio on any engine except miller cycle engines) is large enough to get the cylinder pressure is low enough to considerably slow down the burn speed of the air-fuel mix in it. Low pressure mixes burn slow, high pressure mixes burn fast. Ring seal, cam timing, port efficiencies, are other important but smaller factors in how low pressure gets.

2) way BMW programmed it in terms of leanness and ignition timing (late) under overrun (engine cycling with throttle closed, decelerating). The late ignition point is necessary to ensure smooth (vibration wise) idling. The resultant sounds heard are necessary compromises. Also how hot BMW allows the exhaust to get in other conditions - conditions that sooner or later precede overrun.

3) How much swirl and tumble was designed into the ports, chamber, in combination with piston motion, that determins air fuel homogeneity at the point of exhaust. This being a street car that is designed to make power at low RPM and made by BMW, I expect would be excellent in this area.


Yes, I am sure what you hear is normal. Another factor as to why you hear this is simply exhaust design.


You can do two things to more or less confirm that is isn't caused by a problem

1) Scan car for fault codes. I'm sure you'll find none.
2) Next time you let off the throttle and you hear the noise, re-open the throttle to about 15%. Am sure sound will stop. If you would like to be more accurate, install a vacuum gauge (the cheapest one you can find - 20 or 30 SGD IIRC) and open the throttle when you hear the noise, till you see on the gauge that vacuum levels are low (close to no vacuum). It will go away. Driving around and playing around with throttle openings, you will see that the noise only happens in large enough vacuum situations.


I realize I misdirected my previous reply to SMYUEN instead of you, paiseh. There is more to the above. Again, just say the word :) I think I will make it my SOP now to break everything into small stages. Saves effort and time. .
 
Shaun,

What about the smell from the exhuast after hard revving???? Like rotten sulphur.. is that normal??
 
hmm not sure about that leh.. i have run catted rich, catless rich, catless lean, but have never experienced a rotton sulphur smell. maybe I have but don't know it because I don't exactly know what rotten sulphur smells like?

catless or dead cat, you can smell it, but am not sure if that is what you are experiencing. i don't think your cat can be dead at such a low mileage. Usually it is cats run in excess of 100K miles that lose efficiency.
 
Question for all the BMW gurus..

which models have the new valvetronic that has the throttleLESS? the one where they can have both the intake and exhaust valves stay completely shut [zero lift] even as the engine cycles? IIRC it is only the new 5 series that has it right?

Anyway.. the throttleless system will never see low pressure AF mix seeing hot, atmospheric pressure in the exhaust system simply because it has nearly zero pumping losses under overrun conditions. This engine will never experience this type of backfire that the Z4 experiences. The Z4 runs a normal DBW throttle and so has pumping losses and low pressure AF mixes going off and popping in the exhaust system.
 
Shaun,

Thanks for the mroe concise explaination. To check my understanding, the sound is due to not totally combusted fuel/air mixture from the cyclinders entering the exhaust during closed throttle.

Since you mentioned vacuum gauges. I've seen them on some cars, think it's made my Defi. Looks really cool but what is the point of monitoring the vacuum pressure, even on the track? What about exhaust temperature?
 
Tanzy said:
Shaun,
Thanks for the mroe concise explaination. To check my understanding, the sound is due to not totally combusted fuel/air mixture from the cyclinders entering the exhaust during closed throttle.

Yup! You got it. Short version is that throttle closed at sufficient RPM will generate sufficiently low cylinder pressures to significantly slow down burn speed of the AF mix.

Since you mentioned vacuum gauges. I've seen them on some cars, think it's made my Defi.

Yah there are much cheaper ones by autometer and other taiwanese brands.. good enough for checking out option 2 as mentioned in last post to you.

Looks really cool but what is the point of monitoring the vacuum pressure, even on the track?

it is actually really useless esp on modern engines.. ESP on low mileage, un-heavily modded modern engines. On old stuff, it can be used to check for worn valve guides, damaged valves, clogged exhaust system, worn rings, etc. anything to do with the rings and valves nowadays is better checked via leakdown and/or compression testing. as for clogged exhast.. it doesn't happen very much at all unless a rag was left in the system after it had been worked on, or the cat has melted, etc. all these problems deteremined by watching when and how the vacuum level changes.

it is good to see how much vacuum you're pulling at idle or low RPM to see if a cam duration or phasing allows for the minimum required vacuum that allows vacuum accesories like power assisted brakes properly. this vacuum reading is often the limiting factor as to how aggressive a cam setup can get on a street driven car with assisted brakes.

but that's just about all a vacuum gauge is good for.


What about exhaust temperature?

EGT reading being a product of AF ratio, ignition timing, probe location, and exhaust design, is only as good as the user. The user has to understand engines to beyond what 95++% of enthusiasts do. Even on planes where EGT is a big deal, it is always referenced to cylinder head temperatures, and used for AF mixture adjustment on the fly - maximum fuel economy within limits of what the exhaust port, system and valve can take [fixed value] . The engines have also been heavily tested to very accurately determine safe limits of EGT at mapped ignition settings.

If anything EGT on street cars or track cars will give an indication of knock sensor activity and ignition retard will show up as high temperatures. Determining how safe it is to deviate from baseline stock EGTs is not something that can be done without manufacturer's knowledge/test result OR your own heavy and expensive testing. So EGT is only an indication and an expensive one at that.

Much more simple and useful for the average enthusiast is a wideband AF ratio sensor and gauge.

For the average track nut enthusaist here is rough order (essential to less essential) of useful gauges on light-medium modified NA car..

Oil temp
Coolant temp (stock gauge resolution is not good enough)
Oil pressure
Wideband AFR
Inlet air temp (preferably reading off intake manifold)
EGT
 
I think I over did the gauges in my car.
Darn it! Kind of cluttered now... :roll:
 
Tanzy,

Wah seh... you garang bro!!! Lambo-styled doors some more!!!
You win... you win...

Arsony
Topaz Blue NOT lambo-ed....
 
Re: Popping noise from exhaust

:helpp!:
Shaun;20619 said:
Yup! You got it. Short version is that throttle closed at sufficient RPM will generate sufficiently low cylinder pressures to significantly slow down burn speed of the AF mix.



Yah there are much cheaper ones by autometer and other taiwanese brands.. good enough for checking out option 2 as mentioned in last post to you.



it is actually really useless esp on modern engines.. ESP on low mileage, un-heavily modded modern engines. On old stuff, it can be used to check for worn valve guides, damaged valves, clogged exhaust system, worn rings, etc. anything to do with the rings and valves nowadays is better checked via leakdown and/or compression testing. as for clogged exhast.. it doesn't happen very much at all unless a rag was left in the system after it had been worked on, or the cat has melted, etc. all these problems deteremined by watching when and how the vacuum level changes.

it is good to see how much vacuum you're pulling at idle or low RPM to see if a cam duration or phasing allows for the minimum required vacuum that allows vacuum accesories like power assisted brakes properly. this vacuum reading is often the limiting factor as to how aggressive a cam setup can get on a street driven car with assisted brakes.

but that's just about all a vacuum gauge is good for.




EGT reading being a product of AF ratio, ignition timing, probe location, and exhaust design, is only as good as the user. The user has to understand engines to beyond what 95++% of enthusiasts do. Even on planes where EGT is a big deal, it is always referenced to cylinder head temperatures, and used for AF mixture adjustment on the fly - maximum fuel economy within limits of what the exhaust port, system and valve can take [fixed value] . The engines have also been heavily tested to very accurately determine safe limits of EGT at mapped ignition settings.

If anything EGT on street cars or track cars will give an indication of knock sensor activity and ignition retard will show up as high temperatures. Determining how safe it is to deviate from baseline stock EGTs is not something that can be done without manufacturer's knowledge/test result OR your own heavy and expensive testing. So EGT is only an indication and an expensive one at that.

Much more simple and useful for the average enthusiast is a wideband AF ratio sensor and gauge.

For the average track nut enthusaist here is rough order (essential to less essential) of useful gauges on light-medium modified NA car..

Oil temp
Coolant temp (stock gauge resolution is not good enough)
Oil pressure
Wideband AFR
Inlet air temp (preferably reading off intake manifold)
EGT

:helpp!:
Didn't mean to hijack this Tread but since it is related i wanted to check.
I have the similar scenario...Pop Pop sound after rev-ing....i am driving E90 320i 2006, with Eisenmann exhaust system.....and lately; today noticed white smoked from my exhaust when car rev-ved.....this is not normal, i believe. Kindly advice.:huhhuh::huhhuh:
 
Re: Popping noise from exhaust

Monfreeze Archangel;611402 said:
:helpp!:

:helpp!:
Didn't mean to hijack this Tread but since it is related i wanted to check.
I have the similar scenario...Pop Pop sound after rev-ing....i am driving E90 320i 2006, with Eisenmann exhaust system.....and lately; today noticed white smoked from my exhaust when car rev-ved.....this is not normal, i believe. Kindly advice.:huhhuh::huhhuh:

White smoke could be a engine head gasket issue...........if it is just get it replaced.
 

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