S2000
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axl
Well-Known Member
Re: S2000
2 cabriolets in the family? *lol*
http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/events-meetups-gatherings/19585-am-drive-bkt-breakfast-sg-renggam.html
Can PM ask Nuke.. his is the black S2K in the writeup above.
2 cabriolets in the family? *lol*
http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/events-meetups-gatherings/19585-am-drive-bkt-breakfast-sg-renggam.html
Can PM ask Nuke.. his is the black S2K in the writeup above.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: S2000
The S2000 is super dear to my heart. There are 2 major versions - the original 2L and the current 2.2L.
The 2.2L revs to 8200, and the 2.0L revs to 9K. This is a stroke change, which gives better torque. The feeling is that ... for the 2.0, once you hit the VTEC, you have 3K more to play, but for the 2.2 you only have 2.2K more to play. It is a marked difference. If you use it for daily driver, then the 2.2 is a better choice, otherwise, I'll always say the 2.0 is better. The HP remains the same.
The main problem with this car is the crazy rear end. The early models, you will have utterly no problem to induce the rear to step out of line. It is NOT a drift, you simply lose the rear end. On the later models, the suspension geometry must have been altered, because it felt WAY more stable. On the latest latest model which I have not driven, they put in traction control I think.
The thing nice about this car is the engine. Not the chassis - it does not give you so much confidence, but the engine is crazy. 9000 rpm is a mind blowing experience, and you want to do it over and over again. There is so much to enjoy about this, and the VTEC cam change is really noticeable, even more so than a turbo boost off a stock WRX. The power is sufficient, there is nothing I would want further both on track and on the street. You just cannot exploit all the way to 8K or 9K most of the time, power is on tap. Torque - many have complained that low speed torque is lacking, but I say this - on the traffic jam, you don't care shit about torque. You just wanna move as slowly as possible and it's enough.
The other thing is the gearchange - it is an incredible gearbox. It is not beefy, but it is so perfect mechanically that any shift gets into the gate with a click. However, I tend to miss shifts with the S2000 gearbox, especially 4-5, and similarly with the new Honda gearbox on the civic also. Strange, how this DNA is always there... even across totally different product families. The clutch action is just perfect, there is nothing better out there.
This car CANNOT be used for cross country without the hard top option (S$8K). NO. It cannot. You will go crazy. The cloth top is utter crap, not like the BMW cabrios, it flaps and flaps. With this car with soft top, the top speed is 110km/h bearable. Any more than that, you are not only paiseh to your passenger, but you yourself.
The luggage space is crap. There is almost nothing you can put in save a couple of duffel bags. DON'T EVEN SQUEEZE PLEASE. It is made of the softest aluminium, and if you squeeze, good luck coming back to re-align the trunk lid.
There is no interior storage of any note. You will have problems putting even your handphone anywhere.
Mods - nothing much of worth AFAIC, except for probably a lower ratio gearing modification I guess, there are people raving on the forums on how great that makes the car feel. I didn't feel that the gearing was any issue actually, but given the rev capability, why not? It will allow you to exploit the higher rev range more often, why not?
BUT, in what I say about the S2000, I do wish that they would build a coupe version. Given that they have not built one, I think that this car is pretty good price at S$120K++ but at this price, the 350Z I find is a FAR better car in every area except for high rev sound. The RX8 of course, is debatably better except for the uncertain maintenance of the wankel rotors. The VW Golf is a better car but looks fuddy duddy.
If you pay a hundred K more you could get a Cayman or Z4 Coupe 3.0 SI which are way better cars, BUT FOR the price. Value for money, the 350Z though the road tax is not great. All in all, the S2000 is still considerable .... but ever considered the better option of a manual 350Z 2nd hand?
The S2000 is super dear to my heart. There are 2 major versions - the original 2L and the current 2.2L.
The 2.2L revs to 8200, and the 2.0L revs to 9K. This is a stroke change, which gives better torque. The feeling is that ... for the 2.0, once you hit the VTEC, you have 3K more to play, but for the 2.2 you only have 2.2K more to play. It is a marked difference. If you use it for daily driver, then the 2.2 is a better choice, otherwise, I'll always say the 2.0 is better. The HP remains the same.
The main problem with this car is the crazy rear end. The early models, you will have utterly no problem to induce the rear to step out of line. It is NOT a drift, you simply lose the rear end. On the later models, the suspension geometry must have been altered, because it felt WAY more stable. On the latest latest model which I have not driven, they put in traction control I think.
The thing nice about this car is the engine. Not the chassis - it does not give you so much confidence, but the engine is crazy. 9000 rpm is a mind blowing experience, and you want to do it over and over again. There is so much to enjoy about this, and the VTEC cam change is really noticeable, even more so than a turbo boost off a stock WRX. The power is sufficient, there is nothing I would want further both on track and on the street. You just cannot exploit all the way to 8K or 9K most of the time, power is on tap. Torque - many have complained that low speed torque is lacking, but I say this - on the traffic jam, you don't care shit about torque. You just wanna move as slowly as possible and it's enough.
The other thing is the gearchange - it is an incredible gearbox. It is not beefy, but it is so perfect mechanically that any shift gets into the gate with a click. However, I tend to miss shifts with the S2000 gearbox, especially 4-5, and similarly with the new Honda gearbox on the civic also. Strange, how this DNA is always there... even across totally different product families. The clutch action is just perfect, there is nothing better out there.
This car CANNOT be used for cross country without the hard top option (S$8K). NO. It cannot. You will go crazy. The cloth top is utter crap, not like the BMW cabrios, it flaps and flaps. With this car with soft top, the top speed is 110km/h bearable. Any more than that, you are not only paiseh to your passenger, but you yourself.
The luggage space is crap. There is almost nothing you can put in save a couple of duffel bags. DON'T EVEN SQUEEZE PLEASE. It is made of the softest aluminium, and if you squeeze, good luck coming back to re-align the trunk lid.
There is no interior storage of any note. You will have problems putting even your handphone anywhere.
Mods - nothing much of worth AFAIC, except for probably a lower ratio gearing modification I guess, there are people raving on the forums on how great that makes the car feel. I didn't feel that the gearing was any issue actually, but given the rev capability, why not? It will allow you to exploit the higher rev range more often, why not?
BUT, in what I say about the S2000, I do wish that they would build a coupe version. Given that they have not built one, I think that this car is pretty good price at S$120K++ but at this price, the 350Z I find is a FAR better car in every area except for high rev sound. The RX8 of course, is debatably better except for the uncertain maintenance of the wankel rotors. The VW Golf is a better car but looks fuddy duddy.
If you pay a hundred K more you could get a Cayman or Z4 Coupe 3.0 SI which are way better cars, BUT FOR the price. Value for money, the 350Z though the road tax is not great. All in all, the S2000 is still considerable .... but ever considered the better option of a manual 350Z 2nd hand?
DoggieHowser
Well-Known Member
Re: S2000
Hyper Rev mag indicates that the 2.2l AP2 can remove rev cut to 9k rpm as well with no ill effects as long as you aren't doing other crazy stuff. Get best of both worlds
Not sure abt AP1 but AP2 benefits from a better final drive conversion. Power delivery seems more urgent with the new final drive even without rev cut. It feels closer to a stock Evo in terms of acceleration. With original final drive, the acceleration is more pedestrian.
While not a real coupe, many aftermarket tuners do provide a "hard top" conversion which improves the rigidity and reduces weight by dismantling the whole soft top mechanism.
To me, the downside is that the S2k looks a bit dated. It would definitely benefit from some aftermarket bodykits.
Hyper Rev mag indicates that the 2.2l AP2 can remove rev cut to 9k rpm as well with no ill effects as long as you aren't doing other crazy stuff. Get best of both worlds
Not sure abt AP1 but AP2 benefits from a better final drive conversion. Power delivery seems more urgent with the new final drive even without rev cut. It feels closer to a stock Evo in terms of acceleration. With original final drive, the acceleration is more pedestrian.
While not a real coupe, many aftermarket tuners do provide a "hard top" conversion which improves the rigidity and reduces weight by dismantling the whole soft top mechanism.
To me, the downside is that the S2k looks a bit dated. It would definitely benefit from some aftermarket bodykits.
Re: S2000
The S2000 has a great chassis if you read about it. IIRC it is the stiffest production open top around. I think something like 22kNM/deg. Vague recollection only. It just needs some sorting to really come alive. You can check with the guys on s2ki.com
The S2000 is a great momentum car. With the same good driver, and quality of tire, on many courses it comes very close in lap times to much higher power cars like the Z06s and Vipers. The problem with momentum cars is that you need to drive them really hard and on the limit especially in corners to get the most from them. There is a SG-local S2000 (owner Ian) that has driven to laptimes beating many Evos and WRXs even on a big course like SIC, still NA.
And to me the S2000 look is just beautiful. Lao jiao trackie Andy Choo used to have an absolutely killer one. Black, CF hardtop, bronze rims, big brakes, nice wing...
Funny story is that I've had friends here that after driving their V8s, switch over the the S2000, think something is wrong with the engine, and waste an hour of track time trying to figure out why only three cylinders were working or why the ECU was operating in limp mode, when in fact it was fine.
The S2000 has a great chassis if you read about it. IIRC it is the stiffest production open top around. I think something like 22kNM/deg. Vague recollection only. It just needs some sorting to really come alive. You can check with the guys on s2ki.com
The S2000 is a great momentum car. With the same good driver, and quality of tire, on many courses it comes very close in lap times to much higher power cars like the Z06s and Vipers. The problem with momentum cars is that you need to drive them really hard and on the limit especially in corners to get the most from them. There is a SG-local S2000 (owner Ian) that has driven to laptimes beating many Evos and WRXs even on a big course like SIC, still NA.
And to me the S2000 look is just beautiful. Lao jiao trackie Andy Choo used to have an absolutely killer one. Black, CF hardtop, bronze rims, big brakes, nice wing...
Funny story is that I've had friends here that after driving their V8s, switch over the the S2000, think something is wrong with the engine, and waste an hour of track time trying to figure out why only three cylinders were working or why the ECU was operating in limp mode, when in fact it was fine.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: S2000
oooops... forgot to mention that the RX8 4 doors is pretty cool. And the rear seats are real, like... it's more real than the 911 rear and of course more headroom than the bullshit TT rear seats.
My wife LOVES the car. But better have some oil ready at home ... and it hits the gas hard ... like REAL hard.
oooops... forgot to mention that the RX8 4 doors is pretty cool. And the rear seats are real, like... it's more real than the 911 rear and of course more headroom than the bullshit TT rear seats.
My wife LOVES the car. But better have some oil ready at home ... and it hits the gas hard ... like REAL hard.
Crufty Dusty
Well-Known Member
Re: S2000
Sat in a friend's Elise last month and the drivetrain is stock yet I don't feel that it lacks torque. So yes the lack of torque is a problem, especially if you're coming from FI or big NA engine. Never drove the AP1, but the AP2 is well built, feels solid, good steering feel, decent brakes. Maybe it's just me but I've never felt the power difference with the onset of VTEC, even in the days of SiR. AP2 is on DBW throttle though, which may mean limited potential (for now) for ECU modding unless you're willing to take risks.
Sat in a friend's Elise last month and the drivetrain is stock yet I don't feel that it lacks torque. So yes the lack of torque is a problem, especially if you're coming from FI or big NA engine. Never drove the AP1, but the AP2 is well built, feels solid, good steering feel, decent brakes. Maybe it's just me but I've never felt the power difference with the onset of VTEC, even in the days of SiR. AP2 is on DBW throttle though, which may mean limited potential (for now) for ECU modding unless you're willing to take risks.
Re: S2000
Cays, any small engine optimized for high specific outputs will have poor fuel economy (especially pottering around town) unless it has pretty wide range cam phase adjustment - and even then of limited aid.
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FWIW, the S2000 engines make a huge amount of power for every pound of boost because their heads are just about the best available anywhere. I would have no qualms keeping things simple taking this great momentum car and bumping power a considerable amount with a simple low pressure SC, focusing on reliability and handling mods - just as a weekend/trackday car so the fuel consumption doesn't kill. With power on par with many sportscars, low weight, great grip and handling, it will make a great drivers' car.
The 350Z is kind of heavy.
Cays, any small engine optimized for high specific outputs will have poor fuel economy (especially pottering around town) unless it has pretty wide range cam phase adjustment - and even then of limited aid.
========
FWIW, the S2000 engines make a huge amount of power for every pound of boost because their heads are just about the best available anywhere. I would have no qualms keeping things simple taking this great momentum car and bumping power a considerable amount with a simple low pressure SC, focusing on reliability and handling mods - just as a weekend/trackday car so the fuel consumption doesn't kill. With power on par with many sportscars, low weight, great grip and handling, it will make a great drivers' car.
The 350Z is kind of heavy.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: S2000
Shaun, what's a momentum car? I guess it's the kid of car which keeps its speed better ... so as to have big speed at the corners. But any car with big lateral G can throttle through the corners to achieve the same cornering speed.
And how would you optimize the chassis of the S2000? Cut away the rear ARB and soften the rear suspension? Honestly, I find it hard to keep the rear of the car from sliding away at the slightest provocation without any chance of catching it. Of course this is stock I'm talking about, but with relatively fresh tyres. Compared to the Cayman, it's worlds different in terms of confidence.
Yeah the 350Z is kinda heavy. Compromised FMS chassis.
Shaun, what's a momentum car? I guess it's the kid of car which keeps its speed better ... so as to have big speed at the corners. But any car with big lateral G can throttle through the corners to achieve the same cornering speed.
And how would you optimize the chassis of the S2000? Cut away the rear ARB and soften the rear suspension? Honestly, I find it hard to keep the rear of the car from sliding away at the slightest provocation without any chance of catching it. Of course this is stock I'm talking about, but with relatively fresh tyres. Compared to the Cayman, it's worlds different in terms of confidence.
Yeah the 350Z is kinda heavy. Compromised FMS chassis.
Re: S2000
Yes momentum cars maintain better corner speeds but they do not accelerate very hard at all. The difference between min and max speeds across a lap are smaller than with the typical car that relies more on powering down the straights to drop time. It generally takes a better driver to cut a good lap in a momentum car because once you let up or mess up on traversing any corner across the lap, the times are just ruined.
I recall others talking about the stock S2000 handling problems you speak of, although I cannot remember the exact solutions. But yes IIRC it had to do with bar and shock changes, and toe and bumpsteer settings, nothing major. Some pretty hardcore track guys got it all sorted and were doing really well in them at road courses, including 1 national championship level auto crosser. It was some years ago though. It was that beautiful engine that got me reading s2ki and then it was one of the very first forums on which I started scratching the surface of vehicle dynamics.
Yes momentum cars maintain better corner speeds but they do not accelerate very hard at all. The difference between min and max speeds across a lap are smaller than with the typical car that relies more on powering down the straights to drop time. It generally takes a better driver to cut a good lap in a momentum car because once you let up or mess up on traversing any corner across the lap, the times are just ruined.
I recall others talking about the stock S2000 handling problems you speak of, although I cannot remember the exact solutions. But yes IIRC it had to do with bar and shock changes, and toe and bumpsteer settings, nothing major. Some pretty hardcore track guys got it all sorted and were doing really well in them at road courses, including 1 national championship level auto crosser. It was some years ago though. It was that beautiful engine that got me reading s2ki and then it was one of the very first forums on which I started scratching the surface of vehicle dynamics.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: S2000
Honda ... what a utterly logical company.
They got the S2K's wonderful engine but refuse to make a coupe. They got such great normal engines but refuse to make a decent RWD. Instead to spend a big bunch of money to make SH-AWD electronic diff ... logical since most of their sales is in FWD and selling well.
But where's the alleged passion?
Honda ... what a utterly logical company.
They got the S2K's wonderful engine but refuse to make a coupe. They got such great normal engines but refuse to make a decent RWD. Instead to spend a big bunch of money to make SH-AWD electronic diff ... logical since most of their sales is in FWD and selling well.
But where's the alleged passion?
Re: S2000
Optimized V8s are very much two optimized I4s on a common crank, and the F20C is about perfect for a street sport engine. It's been done with great sportbike engines too before. RST, Radical, etc. The block will have to be redesigned, but all internals cept for crank, can be used. The heads will remain just about identical except maybe drive for the cams on one bank if they want both banks to share a common drive.
Optimized V8s are very much two optimized I4s on a common crank, and the F20C is about perfect for a street sport engine. It's been done with great sportbike engines too before. RST, Radical, etc. The block will have to be redesigned, but all internals cept for crank, can be used. The heads will remain just about identical except maybe drive for the cams on one bank if they want both banks to share a common drive.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: S2000
I was thinking of how to make V8 from 2 I4 on what to change, but you answered the question liao. Thanks!
since Honda's F20C time, there are several developments in engine tech which enable them to make the engine cheaper. Coating tech, materials tech, all changed. They will have to change too, I guess.Shaun;250332 said:
I was thinking of how to make V8 from 2 I4 on what to change, but you answered the question liao. Thanks!
