Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

[racingminds]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

Cool, I'll be up there Fri and Sat.. see ya

Time to beat in an E46 M3 on semis is around 2:36 set by some pretty modified E46 M3s and a a couple CSLs, CSL should be 34s though.. maybe even high 33s. Stockish Z4M (brakes, wheels) on semis also floating around 35, 36.

Hmmm I would expect the modified E46 M3s to be able to do 35 or better, didn't expect them to be doing abt wot I was doing in my s2k 2years ago. I'm not bringing the M3 up, am going there to drive a suzuki swift sport for some testing. And GAWD I MISS MY S2K!!

Catcha up at Sepang on Saturday mate~ Cheers~

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

Hmmm I would expect the modified E46 M3s to be able to do 35 or better, didn't expect them to be doing abt wot I was doing in my s2k 2years ago. I'm not bringing the M3 up, am going there to drive a suzuki swift sport for some testing. And GAWD I MISS MY S2K!!

Catcha up at Sepang on Saturday mate~ Cheers~

Hahah wah you damn yaya ah! 2:35 2 years ago? I thought you stopped about a year ago around 37

Roadcar BMWs are heavy lah.. also tall gearing.

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

1) T4 Sepang, you are supposed to brake hard a couple hundred millsec just before turn entry. The steering wheel input for this turn entry is supposed to be from 0 to ~170 degrees of steering wheel input in under a couple hundred millisec - nearly a step input

1/10. seems pretty suicidal to brake hard just b4 entry. and at the same time doing a 170 degree steering action? nuts. sure way to spin ur car. as far as i remember. when i brake near 150 mark at 200+....also i do not turn anywhere near 170degree..prob 110/120 the most.



2) T5 and T6 of Sepang being described as "flat out acceleration corners".

1/10..its part throttle for most cars i know...civics to rx 8 to 320s....go utube watch the videos.

 

[racingminds]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

Nah I'm still amateur..lots more room to go, including datalogging. Think if I were to continue more serious tracking @ Sepang, it's time I turn to datalogging. The last track session I did 1year+ ago was a night session...TA was already 2years ago. My best timings were in the 36, which sad to say, was not the best my s2k could do. Having done 37s with no aero n no itbs prior, my car should have gone below 35. I kindda regret not continuing to push fer timing after that. Time to beat fer the s2k on semis subsequently became 32 apparently, not 35 anymore.

Yeah the weight is a damn big turn-off. Lightweight NA still rocks!

 

[jwwu]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

So... what's the answer?

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

JW, the answer is that while everyone has scored it negatively, and nearly all extremely negatively - they are all wrong and need to go back to ADT to learn how to drive properly

Obviously I'm joking.

"Uphill, get on the brakes, clip the apex.. come out... learn the topography. Going into 5 and 6 - these are flat out acceleration corners. Pick your line, tighten the apex.. the car wants to go into a four wheel drift, then we go into transition.. power.. balance..."

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4cksz3duBU"]YouTube - ‪Mucking Around On Sepang Circuit 3.mov‬‏[/ame]

I do realize that this guy is probably not representative of BMW instructors and that there are many much better than him. I have no problem with T12 where he states it's just for fun and for the video only. What I find worrying is that he talks so confidently about the other turns and says and does such crazy things (step inputs, two big abrupt bites of steering at the same corner, early apexing and winding on steering post apex, not tracking out). Don't know if he really believes what he is saying and doing, or is trusting that the students are too new to realize what they're hearing and experiencing is completely wrong. But he knows it's all being recorded and going up on youtube like he himself mentioned.. amazing.

A lot of schools, big brand, big name, marque and non-marque supported, have purposes other than actually teaching drivers to really understand things and themselves be fast, be adaptable. Examples:

- experience new culture and heritage of the brand in a quaint, beautiful setting - very pleasant experience outside of the actual driving
- experience new model(s) of car, hope clients buy
- be wowed by dramatic laps, hope you talk lots about it, hope you attribute it to the car capabilities. Dramatic (to enthusiasts) laps are never the fastest or most efficient. The mind will believe what it wants to believe, or has been led to believe
- focus on dramatic stuff that borders on stunt driving so the accomplishment is quickly apparent and feelings of satisfaction run high
- teach masses, introduce them to the brand. Everyone gets a big brand certificate of completion, experience, videos, photos they can boast to about to their buddies
- get you hooked on performance, channel you into race series' that they organize

This is all fine and valuable in other ways, but it is important to realize that there is an awful lot that is entirely unrelated to the true search for and location of the specifics of efficient driving. So continue to trust your own hardwork, scientific testing, measurements, logical discussion with like minds, authoritative books. There's really nothing that beats all this, consistently applied over time. Couple days here and there with quaint this and that, an hour with a driving god, a few sentences of advice, will not improve you anywhere near as much, unless you are already putting in lots of hours, trying very hard, hopelessly lost, clueless as to what to do next.

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

fark la...he din flat out in 5-6.....he held throttle. cockster. shaun..u wasted my time. twat!

 

[AC Schnitzer]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

That really did not look like Controlled Oversteer to me.

I would like to know what is BMW (SG) selection criteria for ADT Instructors.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

fark la...he din flat out in 5-6.....he held throttle. cockster. shaun..u wasted my time. twat!

Oei adorableface...I said T5 and T6 was described as flat out acceleration, and he did describe it that way.

No decently powered car with can do T5, T6 flat out, not F1, not superGT, not GT anything, formula anything. None. Purposely building a 50hp high downforce one off is another story but that doesn't count. F1 still feathers and holds speed, just sounds fast because they hold a high engine speed through the mids. Resumes longitudinal acceleration at T6 exit.

 

[MachoMan]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

This is a different guy from the one I saw. But you're saying this guy is an instructor and this is how he is teaching guys to drive? Honestly I think I'll be better off watching Best Motoring in-car videos. haha

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

That really did not look like Controlled Oversteer to me.

Most drivers can do tankslappers at will... pretty i. 50% of the time complete, 50% end up gravel.

I would like to know what is BMW (SG) selection criteria for ADT Instructors.

That was BMW Malaysia ADT I think. But know enough to give the participants a dramatic and fun time I suppose.

Fun alone is 100% fine, as long as that stuff is not taught as the proper thing to do. If before the whole video he told the guys "ok we're going to run some laps just for fun now. This is how controllable BMWs are and how fun they can be. This is not really how you want to drive to be fast or efficient, just for fun" it would be A-OK. Instead it seems as though he's really teaching them this stuff seriously... narration, etc.

 

[AC Schnitzer]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

Most drivers can do tankslappers at will... pretty i. 50% of the time complete, 50% end up gravel.

That was BMW Malaysia ADT I think. But know enough to give the participants a dramatic and fun time I suppose.

Fun alone is 100% fine, as long as that stuff is not taught as the proper thing to do. If before the whole video he told the guys "ok we're going to run some laps just for fun now. This is how controllable BMWs are and how fun they can be. This is not really how you want to drive to be fast or efficient, just for fun" it would be A-OK. Instead it seems as though he's really teaching them this stuff seriously... narration, etc.

Precisely.

I would like to give the instructor in that video a half-hearted benefit of doubt that it was all in good fun.

However based on that tone of voice and instructions on youtube, the impression he gave me was that all these instructions were routine and fundamental of what a beginner should adopt.

My fear is that such instructions have a multiplier effect where students or participants of BMW ADT absorb such knowledge not only apply them in real life but treat such driving methods as gospel and pass them on to other drivers.


The Controlled Oversteer if you want to call it, really drove the last nail into the coffin.

 

[KiddyM2]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

Oei adorableface...I said T5 and T6 was described as flat out acceleration, and he did describe it that way.

No decently powered car with can do T5, T6 flat out, not F1, not superGT, not GT anything, formula anything. None. Purposely building a 50hp high downforce one off is another story but that doesn't count. F1 still feathers and holds speed, just sounds fast because they hold a high engine speed through the mids. Resumes longitudinal acceleration at T6 exit.

yes.. u are right.. no bloody cars or purposed built race cars, can do Turn 5 & 6 FLAT out.. mid Turn 6, flat out, i believe..

wah.. the BMW instructor.. sibeh tok kong.. esp the "drift" at turn 12...

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

yes.. u are right.. no bloody cars or purposed built race cars, can do Turn 5 & 6 FLAT out.. mid Turn 6, flat out, i believe..

wah.. the BMW instructor.. sibeh tok kong.. esp the "drift" at turn 12...

it was a controlled accident......not a coontrolled drift. sure headache.

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

Thank u all
gd nite

 

[Racebred]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

that wheel line inside curb dun work la.

very good exit speed leh!!


and flat out T5-6 is really impossible. Even in the formula renault, where u feel like a downforce god, plus it has really low bhp, which seems like the ideal configuration to tackle this hypothesis, you can enter flat out if you are good, but the car will not make it round if you dont release a bit of throttle.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

T5 T6 sector on the way to a sub 2:06 lap...

 

[MachoMan]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

Hmm.. It's interesting how the driver turned in first, before he ease off on the throttle. From the way the speed curve spikes, he must be in and out of the limits of the tyres and correcting all the while? The Lat G curve would be interesting to look at too. What data acquisition system is this? Is this vehicle a porsche?

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

Re: turning before easing off throttle, a lot of low mass high grip cars do that on turns where preceding speed isn't much higher from what the turn will support and where the driven radius is sufficiently large because scrubbing forces from the tire even under normal slip angles are a more precise way to bleed a little bit of speed vs very powerful and sensitive brakes. It also blends more turn onset settling time with deceleration, rather than less. Either, or both combined, can make for staying closer to limit given human control. It's part of the benefit of a double apex line in some cases.

The frequency of the wheelspeed variation is too quick (nearly 7 Hz if you work it out) and too sustained to be a result of human control. Amplitude is also too small. It is a result of vertical load varying while the roadwheel takes on slip angle in the turns, which gives varying longitudinal drag levels, yielding that speed trace. You can see how the load variation on the outside tire increased as the car turned right. Vertical load variation of nature shown can come from a whole range of sources - overdamping or underdamping for those specific shaft speeds or frequencies, tires excited by bumps of similar frequency or its multiple or inverse multiple, etc. It's not a problem per se though. You'll always see it, just a matter of where and when. The best car driven by the best driver is still a compromise - just that it's the best one that day or session.

 

[MachoMan]

Re: Trackers, on a scale of 1 - 10...

Thanks man. Informative post. Just learnt a new thing for data analysis. What you mentioned is something about tire load sensitivity right? I have read of scrubbing of speed using slip angles, but I didn't know it looks like that in data form. Good stuff.