Wish List for F30/80 M3

[golfgti]

Re: Wish List for F30/80 M3

1. instead of airbag, an inflatable doll with DD explode in my face.

2. integrated 2GW ghetto blaster inside the front n rear airvents.

3. special autotint which reacts to sunlight like transition glasses n clears up at night.

 

[clar]

Re: Wish List for F30/80 M3

If you have said, M Cars are developed from its series model, that may have sounded right even though 9x% of the components in a M3 is not alike to its series model. To benchmark against its series model, perhaps not so.

You can't develop a next gen M3 which will easily be quicker than its series model but not be quicker than previous gen M3 otherwise you start going backwards in time. It is not evolution. With every generation of M3, the next gen of M3 has to be quicker in some aspects.

Its interesting that you mentioned the F30. Family just received delivery of a F30 this month and I was just going through the brochure looking at the numbers, in particular, the weight and contrasting those figures with E90.

F30 328 (AT): 1530 Kg
E90 325 (AT): 1535 Kg

Difference: 5Kg

F30 335 (AT): 1595 Kg
E90 335: (AT): 1625 Kg

Difference: 30Kg

The figures are encouraging as BMW managed to stop this weight issue from spiraling upwards but definitely not stellar.

We have to take into consideration that once you put in a LSD, wider rims and tyres at all 4 corners, larger calipers, rotors, EDC, throw in DCT which added another 20Kg compared to 6Spd, strengthening of chassis, control arms etc etc. and weight quickly adds on.

E90 335 (AT): 1625 Kg
E90 M3 (DCT): 1690 Kg

Difference: 65 Kg

65Kg when the S65 weigh in 15-20Kg lighter than S54.

M Tuning Division’s CEO, Ludwig Willisch, 2009



Source: The Future of BMWs M Division: New Turbo Fours and Sixes Likely - Motor Trend Blog

If Power remains the same as E9X M3s, I honestly hope weight savings be more than historical figures.

Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking you with my skepticism but weight doesn't magically disappears as you add more items. You can lighten this and that with Aluminum or Carbon Fibre and what not, which quickly adds up costs and whether stingy people like myself is willing to pay a premium or change my uniform to something with 4 rings or a 3 pointed Star.

As an enthusiast, I have always wanted a lighter car. What the M division did not deliver in weight, they compensated in the lap times department and that is good enough for me.

If Dr. Segler were to follow Willisch's philosophy, I certainly hope the decline in weight would be more significant. We are not likely not see triple digits here.

When I first saw the weight of the E92 M3 I nearly fell off my chair. After owning both E46 and E92 M3 concurrently, driving and tracking it, you'll start to see why and the 1690 or 1680 figure doesn't seem to matter so much anymore.

From my stand point, I don't think I will be disappointed with the next M3. Having driven M3s from E30 to E92 except for E36, so far the people at M have done it right.

Consumer's wants are insatiable. We want our M3s to weigh like GT3s yet not willing to part ways with iDrive, 4 seats and a big boot. That's human nature I guess.

Actually, when i said bench marked, i was only referring to the weight gain. M's target is to gain less for the M models relative to the series model. They have been improving with every new M model. Based on that, coupled with the fact that the F30 335i is 30 kg lighter than the E90, we should prob be looking at around 50kg weight saving for the next M3 with 30 kg coming from the series cars' difference, plus another 20 kg in improvement in M treatment. 50 kg is probably not a big deal, but nice to have nonetheless.

I agree with u that weight might not be such a big deal. It's prob more of an issue for track junkies. When i first learned of the E92 M3's weight gain relative to the E46, i was quite upset and that made me chose 135i over the M3. Yes, it was just an idea in my mind obsessing over the weight figures. When i eventually test drove the E92 M3, it didn't feel heavy at all, and i bought one real quickly. However, BMW is lacking behind in engineering lighter cars. They know that, but they can get away with it at least for now. Without going radical, it's actually possible to loose quite a lot of weight. More aluminium over steel and a little more liberal use of carbon fibre should easily yield at least another 50 kg in weight savings. No need to worry about creature comforts either cos those are already taken care of in the F30 series models and yet, weight has gone down.

 

[AC Schnitzer]

Re: Wish List for F30/80 M3

Actually, when i said bench marked, i was only referring to the weight gain. M's target is to gain less for the M models relative to the series model. They have been improving with every new M model. Based on that, coupled with the fact that the F30 335i is 30 kg lighter than the E90, we should prob be looking at around 50kg weight saving for the next M3 with 30 kg coming from the series cars' difference, plus another 20 kg in improvement in M treatment. 50 kg is probably not a big deal, but nice to have nonetheless.

I agree with u that weight might not be such a big deal. It's prob more of an issue for track junkies. When i first learned of the E92 M3's weight gain relative to the E46, i was quite upset and that made me chose 135i over the M3. Yes, it was just an idea in my mind obsessing over the weight figures. When i eventually test drove the E92 M3, it didn't feel heavy at all, and i bought one real quickly. However, BMW is lacking behind in engineering lighter cars. They know that, but they can get away with it at least for now. Without going radical, it's actually possible to loose quite a lot of weight. More aluminium over steel and a little more liberal use of carbon fibre should easily yield at least another 50 kg in weight savings. No need to worry about creature comforts either cos those are already taken care of in the F30 series models and yet, weight has gone down.

I see where you're coming from.

In my experience 50 Kilos in weight savings is decent to have. I cannot give you a Per Kilo/Secs ratio. I have personally shed about 85 Kilos in a track car and dropped slightly over 9 tenth of a second in laptimes but also bearing in mind the car gained 50KWatw and additional 2 inches wider tyre profile. (Plenty of variables to factor in for 0.9 figure. Mainly summer vs winter temps.)

When you put the above in perspective, it is quite an effort for 9 tenth of a second even at 85 Kilos in weight savings.

In general if weight savings are minimal and power remains the same, you either increase Grip values or horsepower or both to make up for loss time.

Just like you, the E92 M3 did not feel heavy from seat of the pants. If anything the E46 felt heavier than the E92. The interesting thing was that the E46 felt like it has very aggressive bound and rebound rates coupled with the softest springs. With the E46 you'll feel the imperfections of the road but at mid-high speed corners around the track, the E46 rolls a lot more than E92. From a driver's mindset, confidence level is lower with the E46 compared to the E92 at the track in terms of exploring the limits of the car/driver

Having said that, shedding 50Kg is tons better than easily adding another 100kg+ like we have seen from E46 to E92.

The weight issue comes into play at the track, not so much in daily driving. Working from Ground Up, lighter weight means less stress/wear on tyres (heat), calipers, rotors, brake pads, brake fluid, shocks, less horsepower requirement = lesser stress on engine (heat), gearbox etc.

The above really only applies to M drivers who track often and not so much for people who bought it for aesthetics or prestige. I think we can agree most of us did not buy a M Car for its horsepower. There are a handful alternatives with a bucket load of horsepower at nearly or less than the price of a M3.

Having said that, back to the topic, I would like to see an increase in tyre width.

We saw this historically from E46 (235/255) to E92 (245/265). If given that weight is indeed slashed by 50 kilos, would we see 255/275 in the upcoming M3, assuming that if power remains the same or thereabouts.

If there is a Manual, there should be less play. S2000 is a prime example.

Most other items on the wish list are likely to fall under BMW Performance Parts for revenue raising.

 

[clar]

Re: Wish List for F30/80 M3

I see where you're coming from.

In my experience 50 Kilos in weight savings is decent to have. I cannot give you a Per Kilo/Secs ratio. I have personally shed about 85 Kilos in a track car and dropped slightly over 9 tenth of a second in laptimes but also bearing in mind the car gained 50KWatw and additional 2 inches wider tyre profile. (Plenty of variables to factor in for 0.9 figure. Mainly summer vs winter temps.)

When you put the above in perspective, it is quite an effort for 9 tenth of a second even at 85 Kilos in weight savings.

In general if weight savings are minimal and power remains the same, you either increase Grip values or horsepower or both to make up for loss time.

Just like you, the E92 M3 did not feel heavy from seat of the pants. If anything the E46 felt heavier than the E92. The interesting thing was that the E46 felt like it has very aggressive bound and rebound rates coupled with the softest springs. With the E46 you'll feel the imperfections of the road but at mid-high speed corners around the track, the E46 rolls a lot more than E92. From a driver's mindset, confidence level is lower with the E46 compared to the E92 at the track in terms of exploring the limits of the car/driver

Having said that, shedding 50Kg is tons better than easily adding another 100kg+ like we have seen from E46 to E92.

The weight issue comes into play at the track, not so much in daily driving. Working from Ground Up, lighter weight means less stress/wear on tyres (heat), calipers, rotors, brake pads, brake fluid, shocks, less horsepower requirement = lesser stress on engine (heat), gearbox etc.

The above really only applies to M drivers who track often and not so much for people who bought it for aesthetics or prestige. I think we can agree most of us did not buy a M Car for its horsepower. There are a handful alternatives with a bucket load of horsepower at nearly or less than the price of a M3.

Having said that, back to the topic, I would like to see an increase in tyre width.

We saw this historically from E46 (235/255) to E92 (245/265). If given that weight is indeed slashed by 50 kilos, would we see 255/275 in the upcoming M3, assuming that if power remains the same or thereabouts.

If there is a Manual, there should be less play. S2000 is a prime example.

Most other items on the wish list are likely to fall under BMW Performance Parts for revenue raising.

Excellent points, thanks for sharing Totally agree on the need for wider tires. The next M3 is definitely getting a lot more torque esp down low, so wider tires is a must. However, knowing their obsession with rolling resistance, we might just get a marginal increase to 275 at the rear. Like the F10 M5, the next M3 is gonna be under-tired. At this moment, i am just waiting on the Americans to get their hands on the F10 M5. Once they do, them crazy Americans are gonna try every possible combination of wheel/tire sizes. I don't wanna play guinea pig dealing with all the rubbing

 

[Oilman]

Re: Wish List for F30/80 M3

1M following prototype M3... apparently!

Bmw 1m 420ps vs. m3 (f80/f30) Erlkönig - YouTube