2010 Formula ONE!!!

[Racebred]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

I think Adrian Newey should be F1 champion this year.

In comparison, Brawn got such a tremendous headstart in 2009, was coz Honda pang seh the 2008 championship to concentrate on 2009. And the double diffuser was so clearly against the spirit of the rules that it was banned in 2010. However, Red Bull, through the second half of 2009, steadily closed the technical gap to Brawn's car.

So Red Bull didnt pang seh 2009, yet continued advancements on both 2009 and 2010 cars, such that they totally dominated the circuits at around 1 second, and in some circuits 2 seconds per lap, which is an eternity in F1 world. This was Ferrari's past heyday territory liao.

We shall see how the deforming front wing issue gets panned out over the next few races. Maybe a rule change at the end of the European leg, but by then it'll be much too late. This year belongs to Red Bull, by sheer consistent hard work. Contrast this to the flash-in-the-pan Brawn. Nobody can ever imagine that Mercedes GP was last year's constructors champion. All credits to Adrian Newey.

In our minds, there are 2 classifications of good F1 drivers. You have the really good, and you have the geniuses. Michael Schumacheur, Kimi, Hamilton, Alonso, maybe Vettel belong to the genius category. At a slightly lower category we have maybe Button, Massa, Webber, all race winners too. You can see that with really good engineering of the car, a good driver can surpass a genius. That's how Button won the championship last year. (along with ppl like Jacques Villneurve) I forsee that due to Red Bull's Adrian Newey, he can create a champion in people like Webber and perhaps Vettel. Not bad for a team that used to be the really lousy Ford, and then Jaguar.

I think Red Bull's biggest problem is Vettel's immaturity. Remember everyone used to be critically harsh on Hamilton in his first 2 rookie years, on how his immaturity fails him results on the circuit. Vettel's weak points certainly overshadows his driving abilities. Just look at how many pole positions he got, to drive home the point on his inability. He needs to talk more to the greatest thinking champion, and his longtime teammate at the Race of Champions, Michael Schumacheur.

 

[Racebred]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

I think its because he busy body looking @ Rosberg flying tire.

How did Webber soft tire last so long?

Until the point where the Force India front wing was lying on the circuit and the safety car came out, I thought this would be another driving parade race. Hehehe. Really good drama this weekend.

I think Webber's tires could last long, was coz he made it last long. In the F1 grid today, you have 2 clear camps of driving styles. Webber, Button, Barrichello, Rosberg, Massa are the real smooth operators. Because they are so smooth on the car, their tyres also last longer than their teammates. And consequently you can see them shine during the really wet races. Webber's tyres were almost gone by the time he came in for the change, but he could still smoothly drive around the inefficiency.

In contrast, drivers like Hamilton, and especially Alonso, hustle their cars through the corners with much more brutality. Thats why if their cars are well balanced with good downforce, they can get really really quick. However, they eat thru their tyres much faster, which is what you can almost always see on Hamilton's car. Remember Kimi's car reliability was always much worse than Massa, coz he's a pretty rough driver too, who didnt care much for mechanical sympathy, only best timings.

 

[wt_know]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

not just last long but clocking very fast lap with 20secs gap went in to pit and yet came up at 1st position. that shows very good driving skill.

I think its because he busy body looking @ Rosberg flying tire.

How did Webber soft tire last so long?

 

[wt_know]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

vettel admit fault that he was asleep and don't know that safety car was going in and also no radio message. initially, i thought he was purposely keeping alonso behind so that webber can move up fast and when webber pit, he got a chance to challenge alonso for red bull 1-2 finish.

how the steward know is 10 car huh ... may be it was 9.5 cars gap ... muahaha

Understand that the penalty was for being more than 10 car lengths behind safety car. :argue:

 

[etan1]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

how the steward know is 10 car huh ... may be it was 9.5 cars gap ... muahaha

Your guess is as good as mine....

They officially penalize Vettel, I am sure they have concrete evidence.

 

[kenntona]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

I was just surprised that the Red Bull race control team is clueless about the penalty......

Also, what is the limit at which Schumacher cannot defend himself from Rubens? When Rubens front wheel is besides his rear? There must be a limit at which what Schumacher has done is wrong..... not 1 or 2 car lengths away.

 

[wt_know]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

yeah, not long ago alonso also commented that the stewards are always right. when he complained about hamilton overtake safety car and yet still able to finish the race 2nd.

Your guess is as good as mine....

They officially penalize Vettel, I am sure they have concrete evidence.

 

[hoks]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

Until the point where the Force India front wing was lying on the circuit and the safety car came out, I thought this would be another driving parade race. Hehehe. Really good drama this weekend.

I think Webber's tires could last long, was coz he made it last long. In the F1 grid today, you have 2 clear camps of driving styles. Webber, Button, Barrichello, Rosberg, Massa are the real smooth operators. Because they are so smooth on the car, their tyres also last longer than their teammates. And consequently you can see them shine during the really wet races. Webber's tyres were almost gone by the time he came in for the change, but he could still smoothly drive around the inefficiency.

In contrast, drivers like Hamilton, and especially Alonso, hustle their cars through the corners with much more brutality. Thats why if their cars are well balanced with good downforce, they can get really really quick. However, they eat thru their tyres much faster, which is what you can almost always see on Hamilton's car. Remember Kimi's car reliability was always much worse than Massa, coz he's a pretty rough driver too, who didnt care much for mechanical sympathy, only best timings.

not just last long but clocking very fast lap with 20secs gap went in to pit and yet came up at 1st position. that shows very good driving skill.

Yes really good drama except that the darn producer have to go into commercial break during pit stop time:furious:

Still sounds amazing to me that driver style can make such a big difference. I think Webber did almost twice the number of laps than others.

 

[wt_know]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

if vettel win the driver's championship this year he can rewrite history for the youngest f1 champion which is hold by lewis hamilton now.
after this year, the bus left the station.

 

[Racebred]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

I was just surprised that the Red Bull race control team is clueless about the penalty......

Also, what is the limit at which Schumacher cannot defend himself from Rubens? When Rubens front wheel is besides his rear? There must be a limit at which what Schumacher has done is wrong..... not 1 or 2 car lengths away.

The rulebook says you can only change your direction once to defend. If the opponent ducks the other way then you cannot switch and block again. In this case, Schumacheur only squeezed once, but he squeezed to the limit. You'll be penalised if you run someone off the track deliberately, but in my opinion, i felt what schumey did was quite brilliant. He obviously knew what he was doing. Throughout his career, he has squeezed people to the side all the time but gave them just the last bit of room to survive. Harsh but fair.

This is further evidenced by the fact that when Rubens came up to the grass patch at the pit exit which was eating into half a car's breadth on his right, michael ducked to his left at the very last moment so that rubens could continue on tarmac. All the while, Rubens had room. Nobody said overtaking should be given on a silver platter.

 

[longhorn]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

hi. I would like to offer my thoughts for discussion.

The rulebook says you can only change your direction once to defend. .......... Throughout his career, he has squeezed people to the side all the time but gave them just the last bit of room to survive. Harsh but fair.

The rulebook can say one thing but would u agree that the move was dangerous? IMO yes. Of cos one can argue that F1 is dangerous in the first place. What if Barrichello made a mistake and hit the wall? What if Barrichello gets killed.. or kills Schumi or kills a spectator/marshall. Would u still say that the move was fair?

This is further evidenced by the fact that when Rubens came up to the grass patch at the pit exit which was eating into half a car's breadth on his right, michael ducked to his left at the very last moment so that rubens could continue on tarmac. All the while, Rubens had room.

looking at video below from 0.55 to 1.08 Schumi did not duck left to give room to Barrichello. Barrichello already passed Schumi and moved aggresively to his left. Schumi moved left to avoid Barrichello.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85p38Rl83Pk]YouTube - Formula 1 hungarian grand prix 2010:Barrichello almost crashes Schumacher[/ame]

Anyway my point is F1 is already dangerous . not need to add to the danger with moves like these which endanger people's lives.

 

[kenntona]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

The rulebook says you can only change your direction once to defend. If the opponent ducks the other way then you cannot switch and block again. In this case, Schumacheur only squeezed once, but he squeezed to the limit. You'll be penalised if you run someone off the track deliberately, but in my opinion, i felt what schumey did was quite brilliant. He obviously knew what he was doing. Throughout his career, he has squeezed people to the side all the time but gave them just the last bit of room to survive. Harsh but fair.

This is further evidenced by the fact that when Rubens came up to the grass patch at the pit exit which was eating into half a car's breadth on his right, michael ducked to his left at the very last moment so that rubens could continue on tarmac. All the while, Rubens had room. Nobody said overtaking should be given on a silver platter.

That's my thought as well, but it seemed that Schumi was given a 10-place grid penalty - which means he was technically wrong to defend. I figured there must be a yardstick to assess what was wrong and what was legit in defending.......

The rulebook can say one thing but would u agree that the move was dangerous? IMO yes. Of cos one can argue that F1 is dangerous in the first place. What if Barrichello made a mistake and hit the wall? What if Barrichello gets killed.. or kills Schumi or kills a spectator/marshall. Would u still say that the move was fair?

On the contrary, I think these dogfights are part of F1, but it has to be within a certain parameter to be deemed gamesmanship, not recklessness. Hence my question on the parameters. What is deemed a legit defence on overtaking?

 

[kenntona]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

"Regarding the overtaking manoeuvre with Rubens, I indicated pretty early that I would move towards the inside and not simply give up the line, and there was just enough space for him to pass me without touching each other. It was a hard fight, and this is what we are here for, but I accept that the FIA stewards saw it as too hard."

Michael Schumacher - Official Website - presented by Motorsport-Magazin.com

It appeared that there is a huge element of perception and judgement here, not so clear cut to define what's legit and what's not.....

 

[davidtch]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

"Regarding the overtaking manoeuvre with Rubens, I indicated pretty early that I would move towards the inside and not simply give up the line, and there was just enough space for him to pass me without touching each other. It was a hard fight, and this is what we are here for, but I accept that the FIA stewards saw it as too hard."

Michael Schumacher - Official Website - presented by Motorsport-Magazin.com

It appeared that there is a huge element of perception and judgement here, not so clear cut to define what's legit and what's not.....

If u read steve slater article on Straits Times today, the same phrase was used when he crushed Damon Hill & Jacques Villeneuve out of the race.

Anyway, i like him a lot because we can't find any brutal driver any more.

 

[longhorn]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

On the contrary, I think these dogfights are part of F1, but it has to be within a certain parameter to be deemed gamesmanship, not recklessness. Hence my question on the parameters. What is deemed a legit defence on overtaking?

don't get me wrong. i am all for dogfights (except between teammates. haha but that is a debate for another time). However the dogfight should not descend into a WW2 dogfight where the winner flies home and the loser crash and burn. Fight hard, fight fair but above all fight SAFELY.

as to paramaters, IMO is impossible to write down in rules. How to determine what is legit? If i may borrow a phrase from PCK, must "use your brain use ur blain use ur blain" :chinese:. Yup a lot of subjectivity. Thats why stewards are needed

Maybe try this, u guys are regular trackers. I have no clue about tracking. Put urself in barrichello's shoes. someone squeeze u to a pit wall at 300 kmh. After the race, wot is your reaction?
A) wah that guy squeeze me to the wall. but very fair. I have about 5 cm clearance before i become part of the wall. not dangerous at all. Or...
B) that murther pucker almost made my wife a widow...

Pick one...

 

[longhorn]

schumi says sorry...

...just saw this latest new from TODAYonline. At least he apologised. If he had not apologise i would have lost all respect for him...

Schumacher says sorry
11:55 AM Aug 03, 2010
Afternoon latest

BUDAPEST - Michael Schumacher has acknowledged that his controversial impeding manoeuvre against Rubens Barrichello at the Hungarian Grand Prix was too hard and has apologised to the Brazilian.
Schumacher said on his website that after reviewing Sunday's incident he agrees with the stewards that the move was too hard. The seven-time champion says he had no intention of endangering the Williams driver and that he was "sorry" if Barrichello had that feeling.
"Right after the race I was still in the heat of the action," he said. "But after watching the moment again, I must say the stewards were right in their assessment: the manoeuvre against Rubens was too dangerous.
"I wanted to make it hard for him to pass me but I didn't want to endanger him with my manoeuvre. If he has this feeling, I am sorry, this was not my intention.
Barrichello had described the move as "a go-kart manoeuvre", saying "it was the most dangerous manoeuvre against me I have ever known". Schumacher was penalised 10 places on the grid for the next Formula One race.
Earlier, Mercedes team principal Ross Brawn defended Schumacher, claiming the punishment was "pretty tough", and suggesting that Barrichello, as a former team-mate of Schumacher, perhaps had an axe to grind.
"I don't think for a moment Michael was trying to put Rubens in the wall," said Brawn. "He was trying to discourage him from coming down the inside as he thought that was where he would be vulnerable. So he moved across to the inside to try and encourage Rubens to go around the outside.
"At the end of the day he gave him enough space. You can argue it was marginal, but it was tough racing. F1 is a tough business and these things happen in a fraction of a second."
Brawn has vowed to take all reasonable steps to prevent a repeat of the other controversial incident in the race, when Nico Rosberg lost his right rear tyre as he emerged back on to the pit lane following a stop for fresh rubber. The runaway tyre bounced down the pit lane, knocking unconscious one of Williams's mechanics.
Brawn said: "It appears as the guy came off with the wheel gun it spat the wheel nut, but he didn't see it disappear. So when he went back on and fired the gun he realised the nut was no longer there. He then went to grab the other gun, but the rear-jack guy thought he had finished, so dropped the car and away Nico went. We will clearly look at how we can prevent it happening again."
Meanwhile, the FIA, motorsport's world governing body, announced a disciplinary hearing with Ferrari in September, after the Italian team had been found guilty of breaking team order rules at last month's German Grand Prix. Ferrari has already been fined US$100,000 after Felipe Massa appeared to let teammate Fernando Alonso pass him to win the race. AGENCIES

 

[Racebred]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

hmm tracking and racing are 2 different things. Tracking is for leisure, and any hint of aggression is just being anti-social. But when I'm racing, I will make sure I squeeze the guy trying to pass me jialat jialat while leaving one exact car space for him to not crash. I suspect Schumey said sorry coz this was a "leisure season" for him and he has nothing to gain by fighting for a non-cause. If he was fighting for championship lead, I suspect the response will be very different. Just like how he had no retort when the stewards found him guilty of overtaking alonso under the final safety car lap. That the stewards punished him with a 10 grid penalty, is a judgement call, pretty much like how some soccer referees are more card happy, some less so. Schumey, and ferrari in particular, has been let off without penalty on many more matters which are also serious in the past too. It's all about who's at the top. Does it affect the championship, and will giving some guilty driver a penalty affect the excitement on the next few races. Many steward calls, especially in the last 3 seasons, were all based on whether the championship fight will go down the wire down to the last race. It's all about $$$.

 

[Shaun]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

I think the fact that RB made it through safely doesn't mean much. There's no point in the stewards condoning MS's sort of move and waiting till a point in the future where either the passer or 'passee' makes an error and the result is serious injury or death. In closed wheel, closed cockpit car at usually much lower speeds and therefore much lower energy levels despite the weight difference, as well as much less risk of kiting - it might be somewhat understandable.

Brawn's explanation for MS's move doesn't make sense and one of the commentators already addressed it by mentioning that if MS wanted to encourage RB to pass on the outside, then just close the door slightly earlier and then RB would be forced to trail or to go around the outside. No point squeezing him to that level. Not only did RB have to run across the filthy area next to pit wall and mess up his tires (could have been a lot worse), but he was forced to touch the grass shortly after before desperately cut back in. It was only at that point that MS moved to give him space. MS is just lucky that RB didn't crash and get hurt or killed. Afterall, like Shawn said, it's not even it's a leisure season for MS and he's not in contention for a top spot so why push to the point where it is so dangerous for the other guy?

As davidtch mentioned, watch MS's past incidents with DH in '94 and JV in '97, esp JV. JV had presented and was alongside MS... MS aborted his sharp turn in giving JV minimal room, but then decided in a split sec to go for it and then intentionally turned in again on him sharper, despite JV's wheelbase being already clearly ahead and when JV is already pressed up against the inside on the inside of the curb. By luck JV came out on top. Thankfully it was at the very bottom of a braking event where speeds were low and not 300 km/h down a long straight.

 

[Shaun]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

chanced upon attached photo some weeks back..

 

[etan1]

Re: 2010 Formula ONE!!!

chanced upon attached photo some weeks back..

Woah.....really close to the wall....thumbs up and clap clap to RB....