BBKs from April Meetup
- Thread starter rex7_vtec
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Re: BBKs from April Meetup
Multiple smaller pistons vs single larger piston is not just about piston area, but the ability to place the piston area further away from the center of rotation to increase brake torque even with brake force held constant. Other benefit to this is that for a given brake force, the wheel stops quicker, and since the force trying to split the calipers apart is closer to the bridged side of the caliper, there is less flex in the structure, less fatigue of the caliper material and the fasteners (if it is non-monoblock).
Piston area is given increased importance given that it cannot properly, without some form of biasing, be fit fully into pad area since the leading edge of the brake pad will wear the quickest given equal pressure across the pad. Usually piston area biasing is carried out with the largest piston at the leading edge of the pad stepping down across piston number, ending with the smallest at the trailing edge. Less desirable but still somewhat practical, is the simple off setting of similarly sized pistons, towards the rear of the pad to give overall even wear.
There are other elements to temperature control - brake rotor mass, efficiency of air, and sometimes liquid, cooling.
All the above is irrelevant if the tires are the limit in braking - breaking traction well before the brakes even approach proper operating conditions, and overheating before the brake system does. This is very often the case with street driven, non-race compound tire, combined with high dollar race brake systems. In such a case, the huge rotors, calipers, become dead unsprung weight, hurting handling. This is compounded by the large wheel requirement of large rotors. TVR once lamented the trend in increased wheel sizes demanded by customers who had no idea how much they were hurting ride and handling especially in the sporty and light weight TVRs.
Look honestly at driving requirements and determine what truly is the limit to braking and braking repetability. Only if you are certain it is the brake system and not the tires, should you upgrade further. If you need them, ultra race big brakes will help. If not, they'll cost you while hurting you big time too. I recall Clarence speaking highly of the the stock 330 brake system, being stressed all day during IDT and not missing a beat. Imagine a stock 330 brake system with slightly more aggressive pads, fluid, lines, and how comfortable that would be with an increased safety buffer - no need for large unsprung masses, high moment of inertia wheels.
Multiple smaller pistons vs single larger piston is not just about piston area, but the ability to place the piston area further away from the center of rotation to increase brake torque even with brake force held constant. Other benefit to this is that for a given brake force, the wheel stops quicker, and since the force trying to split the calipers apart is closer to the bridged side of the caliper, there is less flex in the structure, less fatigue of the caliper material and the fasteners (if it is non-monoblock).
Piston area is given increased importance given that it cannot properly, without some form of biasing, be fit fully into pad area since the leading edge of the brake pad will wear the quickest given equal pressure across the pad. Usually piston area biasing is carried out with the largest piston at the leading edge of the pad stepping down across piston number, ending with the smallest at the trailing edge. Less desirable but still somewhat practical, is the simple off setting of similarly sized pistons, towards the rear of the pad to give overall even wear.
There are other elements to temperature control - brake rotor mass, efficiency of air, and sometimes liquid, cooling.
All the above is irrelevant if the tires are the limit in braking - breaking traction well before the brakes even approach proper operating conditions, and overheating before the brake system does. This is very often the case with street driven, non-race compound tire, combined with high dollar race brake systems. In such a case, the huge rotors, calipers, become dead unsprung weight, hurting handling. This is compounded by the large wheel requirement of large rotors. TVR once lamented the trend in increased wheel sizes demanded by customers who had no idea how much they were hurting ride and handling especially in the sporty and light weight TVRs.
Look honestly at driving requirements and determine what truly is the limit to braking and braking repetability. Only if you are certain it is the brake system and not the tires, should you upgrade further. If you need them, ultra race big brakes will help. If not, they'll cost you while hurting you big time too. I recall Clarence speaking highly of the the stock 330 brake system, being stressed all day during IDT and not missing a beat. Imagine a stock 330 brake system with slightly more aggressive pads, fluid, lines, and how comfortable that would be with an increased safety buffer - no need for large unsprung masses, high moment of inertia wheels.
Re: BBKs from April Meetup
MRacer, TripleM,
which BBK do you reckon is the most bang for the buck one? I used to think Brembos were most ex but also the most reliable/powerful but i see the trend here is otherwise. TripleM has Stoptech (??) and if i'm not wrong i see AP Racing on MRacer's car.
Hmm, getting a little confused now. Heh.
MRacer, TripleM,
which BBK do you reckon is the most bang for the buck one? I used to think Brembos were most ex but also the most reliable/powerful but i see the trend here is otherwise. TripleM has Stoptech (??) and if i'm not wrong i see AP Racing on MRacer's car.
Hmm, getting a little confused now. Heh.
Re: BBKs from April Meetup
U can't go wrong with either one. Both have been tested on track and proven reliable.
Recently Turner motorsport sponsored race car ( fitted with Stop Tech) won a competition in the US.
I was in dilemma between the two at first but having done a lot more research, I went with ST for the following reasons:
1. It maintains stock brake and balanced feel. This is very important for me. This is what ST BBK is known and patented for.
2. Easy after sales support..Product is easily available incl the rotors, aluminum hats, brake pads. Singapore has local dealer now located in Bukit Batok ( I didnt buy from them tho).
3. Best value for money BBK IMO...Very nice caliper design and color and last but not least, the kits come with rear rotors and they are 355mm too
Main drawback with ST Kit is that it's not that BBK friendly. But for your stock OEM 19in, the calipers clear by 1 finger !! swee2x..
If only APRacing came with the upgraded rear rotors then I would hv gone for it. Also, AP calipers are generally quite lean in their design so they are quite BBK friendly to most rims.
My experience so far on street driving.......I enjoy Stop-Tech very much. No squeal ( using Axxis Ultimate Brake pads fyi, cheap and damn good).
Now, what is tempting you again?
darthm3 said:
U can't go wrong with either one. Both have been tested on track and proven reliable.
Recently Turner motorsport sponsored race car ( fitted with Stop Tech) won a competition in the US.
I was in dilemma between the two at first but having done a lot more research, I went with ST for the following reasons:
1. It maintains stock brake and balanced feel. This is very important for me. This is what ST BBK is known and patented for.
2. Easy after sales support..Product is easily available incl the rotors, aluminum hats, brake pads. Singapore has local dealer now located in Bukit Batok ( I didnt buy from them tho).
3. Best value for money BBK IMO...Very nice caliper design and color and last but not least, the kits come with rear rotors and they are 355mm too
Main drawback with ST Kit is that it's not that BBK friendly. But for your stock OEM 19in, the calipers clear by 1 finger !! swee2x..
If only APRacing came with the upgraded rear rotors then I would hv gone for it. Also, AP calipers are generally quite lean in their design so they are quite BBK friendly to most rims.
My experience so far on street driving.......I enjoy Stop-Tech very much. No squeal ( using Axxis Ultimate Brake pads fyi, cheap and damn good).
Now, what is tempting you again?
Re: BBKs from April Meetup
Nice rims the BBS RS-GT, one of my favs.
Think Brembo and ST calipers won't clear. Quite likely you will need some 6mm spacers there about.
Have you surfed the M3 forums in the US at all? A few guys there have these rims on with BBK so probably you can ask em to verify.
The rear lip is not huge but quite deep enough...Don't think it's as deep as the Radernergie or SSR GT3 rims
Cheers dude
darthm3 said:
Nice rims the BBS RS-GT, one of my favs.
Think Brembo and ST calipers won't clear. Quite likely you will need some 6mm spacers there about.
Have you surfed the M3 forums in the US at all? A few guys there have these rims on with BBK so probably you can ask em to verify.
The rear lip is not huge but quite deep enough...Don't think it's as deep as the Radernergie or SSR GT3 rims
Cheers dude
Re: BBKs from April Meetup
The AP Racings are also not bad. Just that like TripleM said they to not come with the rear rotor. So far for me, the APs run really well are not noisy like some people warned me that they would be. Also, the design for the AP is such that you can actually use the stock M3 18 inch rims. oh, a word of advice, do not get the cross drilled rotors, they have a tendency to crack.
in the end, the ST has is strengths and so do the APs. In the end, its more personal preference.
For your rims, get the Kenesis or if you want a huge lip, go get a set of HREs... swee swee!
The AP Racings are also not bad. Just that like TripleM said they to not come with the rear rotor. So far for me, the APs run really well are not noisy like some people warned me that they would be. Also, the design for the AP is such that you can actually use the stock M3 18 inch rims. oh, a word of advice, do not get the cross drilled rotors, they have a tendency to crack.
in the end, the ST has is strengths and so do the APs. In the end, its more personal preference.
For your rims, get the Kenesis or if you want a huge lip, go get a set of HREs... swee swee!
Re: BBKs from April Meetup
Yup TY, the target should be to keep sprung-to-unsprung-mass ratio as high as possible - not by adding mass to the sprung components (which yields overall mass increase [bad]) , but by removing mass from unsprung components. Maintaining low unsprung mass holds increasing importance, the lighter a car is. This is because for a fixed increase in unsprung mass, the aforementioned ratio is changed by a larger degree. Chassis control becomes exponentially difficult to control for a given ratio reduction. An extreme example just for illustration's sake, would be putting 20" chrome show-wheels on an Exige (~800kg) vs putting them on a 7 series (~2000kg). The 7 series already being a heavy car is not greatly affected by the change, unlike the Exige.
NTY said:
Yup TY, the target should be to keep sprung-to-unsprung-mass ratio as high as possible - not by adding mass to the sprung components (which yields overall mass increase [bad]) , but by removing mass from unsprung components. Maintaining low unsprung mass holds increasing importance, the lighter a car is. This is because for a fixed increase in unsprung mass, the aforementioned ratio is changed by a larger degree. Chassis control becomes exponentially difficult to control for a given ratio reduction. An extreme example just for illustration's sake, would be putting 20" chrome show-wheels on an Exige (~800kg) vs putting them on a 7 series (~2000kg). The 7 series already being a heavy car is not greatly affected by the change, unlike the Exige.
