Best semi-slick?

[kuvesh]

I know this is a subjective topic and everyone has their own favourite, but I'm going to ask the question anyway - what is the best semi slick for Sepang and why?

I notice that most of the continental drivers like the Michelin ps cup while the JDM guys frequent Advan ao50 or toyo r888. Also seen a few with Nitto NT01.

Bridgestone generally seem to be used across marques but now seem difficult to get with the re55 no longer in production and re11s not available outside japan.

I know a few guys running Hoosier but that is almost a full slick and quite dangerous to drive on NS for me.

I'm planning on making the switch from street tyres to semi-slick but not sure what is the best alternative... would be good to hear from those trackies that have used more than one make.

 

[Physicist]

Re: Best semi-slick?

RE11s are available on indent basis. Ken is running on them.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Best semi-slick?

RE11 is not semi-slick......

 

[ac323]

Re: Best semi-slick?

RE11 is not semi-slick......

Hi Ken,

i heard RE11 tyres are using semi-slick compound, is it true?


cheers

 

[kenntona]

Re: Best semi-slick?

Hi Ken,

i heard RE11 tyres are using semi-slick compound, is it true?


cheers

Not that I know of.......

 

[powersteer]

Re: Best semi-slick?

given the weather patterns here, its safer to use full wets for the journey. Also, its a waste to heat cycle and wear out ur track tyre for the NSE trip. to get the best outta the yummy tyres:

a better option: drive up / down with ur DD street tyre with a dedicated set of rims and full slicks or semi in the trunk / passenger compartment.
lagi best option: trailer up / down with the car packed with tyres and all other equipments, then take a relaxing flight up / down

advantage: u have at least 2 sets of tyres on hand ... which can suit a wider weather condition up there. Imagine arriving there with dry tyres, then rain big time on track .. the trip, track fee and time .. etc all wasted

 

[kuvesh]

Re: Best semi-slick?

RE11 is not semi-slick......

there is actually a re11s available in japan. different to the standard rell.

given the weather patterns here, its safer to use full wets for the journey. Also, its a waste to heat cycle and wear out ur track tyre for the NSE trip. to get the best outta the yummy tyres:

a better option: drive up / down with ur DD street tyre with a dedicated set of rims and full slicks or semi in the trunk / passenger compartment.
lagi best option: trailer up / down with the car packed with tyres and all other equipments, then take a relaxing flight up / down

advantage: u have at least 2 sets of tyres on hand ... which can suit a wider weather condition up there. Imagine arriving there with dry tyres, then rain big time on track .. the trip, track fee and time .. etc all wasted

I agree with all your comments. Biggest issue is the effort it takes to bring a spare set of rims/tyres down to sepang and do the mount/dismount by myself. If I had a pit crew or garage helping that would be the ideal option. Heard there is a tyre guy that provides this service but quite expensive for me to justify unless i am running something closer to a full slick (e.g. hoosier) that cant be driven on the road.

 

[totoseow]

Re: Best semi-slick?

i use corsas. those who run corsas and hv tried ps cup will tell u that its more progressive.

cups r softer and hv a wear rate of 80. super sticky when hot. they get up to speed (heat) faster than corsas. but they hv a chop chop feeling when it loses grip.

corsas take a longer time to warm up n its best to warm them up slowly. the thread wear is 60 , but they far outlast the cups. 6 track days for my car/driving. they r very very progressive....offering more feel at limits. u can literally feel it letting go slowly when u r past the grip limits. it doesnt throw u out..it slides away slowly.

both these tires still allow u to drive in rain. the corsas much better in the wet than ps cups.



friend with c63 amg runniong with toyo. he just changed to corsas. not going back to toyos. noisy, crashy and no feel, just cant compare in every way.

 

[TripleM]

Re: Best semi-slick?

If RE11 then it's a street tire that works ok for occasional trackday..much like the Advan AD08

RE11S is another type as shown above which is streetable but not safe on wet surface and it makes humming sound like mad, same as the ToyoR888 or Advan AD050. All of which are semi slicks category

The ToyoR888 is quite popular in Conti makes as well in Europe/US Porky groups.

Another tire u can try is Falken RT615, think similar league as the RE11 / AD08, streetable as well.
I hv used them before. But dont expect too much from from all these so called Extreme Summer Performance tires.

IMO, all these tires above are probably suitable for cars up to say 400bhp max and not exceeding 1.5 tons
Else u will struggle in 3rd Lap.
How bout the RE70 fitted as stock tires on Civic Type R? Those are decent road tires cum track use.

So the real answer to your question is, there's a compromise here.
I personally find it's too much of a stress on the tires n driver to be running the ss slicks tires to go up n down n track esp those with little grooves and noisy like hell.

PS Cup n Corsa are best out there if budget isnt an issue. U really can run them on the street but again watch out ur speed when it rains..The PS CUP in particular, it's not forgiving when u hit standing water. Corsa is a better compromise overall and comes with a hefty price tag.

If I were in ur shoes, CORSA for me, no look back but now I m on Hoosiers.
or if the track is wet, i will sit in the pit and talk cock with the guys instead

 

[Girettom]

Re: Best semi-slick?

Two pennies... based on my experiences: Yokos really good... AO48s (but that was a while back and they've updated the compound); R888 HORRIBLE; PS Cups great.

So when is the next track day?

 

[Shaun]

Re: Best semi-slick?

Semi slicks in the dry...

1) Michelin Cups
2) Pirelli Corsas

Michelin really knows what they're doing when trying to maximize a tire as a whole. Class for class, they're almost always ahead. They've made a couple of high profile errors in past years pushing the edge and missing once but on the whole they're dominant by a significant margin.

Comparing the way the racing division for Michelin vs the Japanese companies work and how they test and develop tires..the knowledge and experience they draw on to get into the ball park and efficiently testing for further gain VS thoughtlessly bombarding with test laps to cover large number of compounds and constructions and hoping to chance upon the optimum (and then failing) - nothing can convince that a class for class a tire by any of those Japanese manufacturers can match something by Michelin.

Much of the same goes for dampers.. Japanese vs European, etc. Things can obviously change over time, but for now that's just how it is frankly.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Best semi-slick?

Also.. having the best components doesn't mean the combination is the best. And even if the best components are optimally matched, a decent driver will do better in a sub-optimal car than a poor driver in an optimal car. The driver is in fact the largest factor once the cars are ballpark similar (eg. 480 vs 500hp, jap semi vs euro semi)... so finding optimal in any 1 component or even the overall combination and setup, doesn't really matter until the driver is sorted.

A sorted driver will be able to select and setup a system of components better too.

That's my pitch lah... but it's based entirely in truth and specifics to the contrary are welcome...

 

[jwwu]

Re: Best semi-slick?

Shaun,

Good to hear your views on semi-slick choices. It's interesting to learn about R&D approaches of Michelin vs. Jap cos. Are there any datapoints you could share with us? Say, same (sorted) driver, same car, ceteris paribus... except the tires - RE55S/Toyo R888/Cups/Corsas... what's the time difference in SIC, in the dry?

The reason I ask is that it is neigh impossible to find any data from public sources. e.g. some Porsche guys even prefer R888s vs.Cups, when price is not an issue... other guys say R888s are mediocre.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Best semi-slick?

Shaun,

Good to hear your views on semi-slick choices. It's interesting to learn about R&D approaches of Michelin vs. Jap cos. Are there any datapoints you could share with us? Say, same (sorted) driver, same car, ceteris paribus... except the tires - RE55S/Toyo R888/Cups/Corsas... what's the time difference in SIC, in the dry?

Hi JW and welcome to posting on the forum and not just lurking...

For roadcars and their tires unfortunately I have no direct comparison, because back to back testing is not typically done in them and drivers aren't running all out. And if it's not in the same session or day, then the track condition is too different for a pure tire comparison. Closest was a fast car with a pretty good driver, Corsas vs some RE55s, but car was sold before that could happen.

There have been excellent and adaptable drivers in some racecars running in the sub 2 minute to low 2 minute range at SIC that have saved around 0.9 - 1.4% laptime just by switching to Michelins from the usual big brand Japanese tires, class for class.... but the brilliance of the Michelins doesn't really show because of series regulations. That percentage doesn't sound like much but it is huge - and with equal or better longevity! This is class for class head to head tire competition too, not just specification tire mandated-swap across the board.

At tracks in other countries the same thing happens. And not just vs Japanese tires, but also vs tires from the UK, US, Italy, etc. Mich just rules...

What maybe unique to the Japanese tire companies though, is the way they do things. Michelin can arrive at a track with very small number of tire types that it has worked out to be right for the car and track, and be correct. The Japanese companies bring over 20 times the number of tire types and then test and test and test to find one that performs best (but still not as good as the Michelins). Sometimes they pick the wrong day to test the tires too...which is a strange mistake to make.

The reason I ask is that it is neigh impossible to find any data from public sources. e.g. some Porsche guys even prefer R888s vs.Cups, when price is not an issue... other guys say R888s are mediocre.

A club could very easily run tests and find out. Back to back A-B-A-B tests with a couple cars, couple of good drivers - double blind tests. Split costs with all members who want real answers. I'd bet on the cups winning though

It is possible that the roadcar tires of a company don't share the positive characteristics that are so evident in its racecar tires, but it is not probable. I think every tire company is trying to make the best road car tire because that's where the money is and it is only natural they try and build the best tire possible at a reasonable cost.

 

[TripleM]

Re: Best semi-slick?

I'd think those RE55S, R888 give slightly better timing compared to Corsa or MPSC
As it stands, most JDM guys go with the Jap made tires due to popularity in the tires used by many ..either peers influence or medias.

The Conti make cars , AFAIK, is moe adventurous in trying out both.
Like in the US, ToyoR888 is amongst the popular choice there for Porsche owners. Some like it some dont but generally they claim faster lap vs MPSC n CORSA.

So to get quantifiable data , that's probably a long shot from end users.
Only manufacturers can do tire choice shoot outs and do it back to back to get fair result and driven by the same driver in the same car

I have yet to see this......

 

[Shaun]

Re: Best semi-slick?

I'd say run double blinds test locally with 2 good driver, 2 cars. All it would take is 3 hours at SIC and 4 sets of wheels/tires. 1 day to pre rig the cars. It is in fact quantifiable. If you are interested, I have equipment to accurately measure things like lateral limits, steering torque, steering sensitivity, dynamic tire temps and spread, etc.

Here's a steering sensitivity example I created...

 

[jwwu]

Re: Best semi-slick?

It is possible that the roadcar tires of a company don't share the positive characteristics that are so evident in its racecar tires, but it is not probable. I think every tire company is trying to make the best road car tire because that's where the money is and it is only natural they try and build the best tire possible at a reasonable cost.

Good discussion, guys. Let's keep this thread going.

Shaun: that's the rub, I think. I'm not entirely sure that because Michelin's race tires are dominant (happy to go with your informed view here), that it means Michelin's street / DOT approved tires are also head and shoulders above everyone else. There could be other factors (wet handling, noise, whether the tire has to be OEM approved for certain Porsche models, etc.) that could have an impact on whether Cups are quickest in the dry (over say 5 laps) at SIC.

Jack's response is interesting. It seems to be supported to some extent based on observations... Among the population of cars involved in grassroots time attack type competitions, more winningest cars use Jap brands as opposed to Cups/Corsa. Of course, this picture could be distorted by sponsorships etc.

I really don't know. And you are right, even 1% difference in laptime is HUGE. I'd pay for Cups or Corsas if they give me 1% advantage.

Shaun's awesome celestial charts are clearly taking things to the next level. Would be awesome if we could test things out like that. If only someone could pay for the blind tests. Maybe Porker club members are baller enough to fund this? I'm from the Evo club, where half the posts are about broz meeting for kopi, so will get no traction there...

 

[Shaun]

Re: Best semi-slick?

"time attack type competitions, more winningest cars use Jap brands as opposed to Cups/Corsa."

and what is the proportion of japanese cars and japanese-proud drivers running time attacks and where the competition originated

how many european cars aren't pigs (weight wise) to start with and how many actually get as light as the jap cars or run as much power ?

 

[jwwu]

Re: Best semi-slick?

haha... I would think there should be enough drivers of fast cars (origin of marque notwithstanding) in US, UK, Oz etc. who would gladly trade "Jap pride" for that 1%.

Anyway, I'm sitting on the fence. All I want is some properly backed up evidence/data... so I might get that 1% :woottt:

 

[Shaun]

Re: Best semi-slick?

yet some top local time attackers (time hungry) have barely heard of mich cups or thought about testing them ... just saying...

anyway like you say the influence of sponsorship, or garages taking 'ownership' of drivers and hawking product, or the drivers immersing themselves in only the TA culture and the associated brands, or a brand being time attack focused trading longevity for short term grip, etc. all affect any comparison

testing locally and properly is the only way to find out.. if that's not done then personally I still bet on Mich for the best average of grip and longevity...and then drive and setup around it since more often than not in the roadcar realm there's more time to be found in driving and setup than in missing 1% in tires.