F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
- Thread starter Singsider
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Ah yang
Well-Known Member
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
Bro,im serious. No joke de. Heard it frm a workshop n its their fren. Even i myself once lose 2 a civic. Nt in a race lah. Juz 4 fun. Tat bugger damn fast. I already hit 160kmh n he still pulling away frm my f30. A car is fast nt only c horsepower leh. Weight,rim size etc. Most impt also driver lah. Muz hv (ji)N54toN47;969537 said:
Slow_poke_driver
Well-Known Member
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
Maybe caddy is modded?
I know some compact vans are running XL size snail with super thick core intercooler and pipes, just like on a tiong chia.
Ah yang;969468 said:
Maybe caddy is modded?
I know some compact vans are running XL size snail with super thick core intercooler and pipes, just like on a tiong chia.
Singsider
Well-Known Member
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
Horsepower and Torque are related, but not the same things.
Torque applies to launching power (power from standstill), or power during overtaking. The pulling sensation you feel when you floor it is torque.
Horsepower on the other hand is the power to travel a certain distance in a certain amount of time. in other words, we are talking about speed. So HP applies more towards how fast the car can go.
That is the reason why diesel cars are different from petrol ones. Diesels specialise in torque and are great for low end acceleration (up to 2500 rpm). Petrols specialise in HP, and operate better at higher RPMs (3000 rpm and beyond).
Now, traditionally, diesels are better in town, and petrols are better on highways. However, with turbo technology improving dramatically, we see the gap on both sides closing up. Diesels are starting to be more like petrol, and vice versa.
Both sides being equal, Why I like diesels is cos of the fuel consumption and fuel prices. If petrol prices were as cheap as in Malaysia, there would be no compelling reason to switch to diesel. But with 98Octane going at $2.30 before discount, first time buyers of cars should give diesels some consideration, especially the 2L ones (lower Cat B COE!)
As for me, I'm pretty much stuck with my 118i, thanks to MAS. But, I love my car, so I'm happy to wait a few years.
Horsepower and Torque are related, but not the same things.
Torque applies to launching power (power from standstill), or power during overtaking. The pulling sensation you feel when you floor it is torque.
Horsepower on the other hand is the power to travel a certain distance in a certain amount of time. in other words, we are talking about speed. So HP applies more towards how fast the car can go.
That is the reason why diesel cars are different from petrol ones. Diesels specialise in torque and are great for low end acceleration (up to 2500 rpm). Petrols specialise in HP, and operate better at higher RPMs (3000 rpm and beyond).
Now, traditionally, diesels are better in town, and petrols are better on highways. However, with turbo technology improving dramatically, we see the gap on both sides closing up. Diesels are starting to be more like petrol, and vice versa.
Both sides being equal, Why I like diesels is cos of the fuel consumption and fuel prices. If petrol prices were as cheap as in Malaysia, there would be no compelling reason to switch to diesel. But with 98Octane going at $2.30 before discount, first time buyers of cars should give diesels some consideration, especially the 2L ones (lower Cat B COE!)
As for me, I'm pretty much stuck with my 118i, thanks to MAS. But, I love my car, so I'm happy to wait a few years.
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
My family has a F20 116i that has been plagued with problems, not so much with the drive because it actually drives beautifully. Just that there is this creaking sound on the left (near rear seat and door area) at times and the brakes also decide to squeak super loud at times when approaching a red light. Complain to PML numerous times and its been sent in a couple times already but surprise surprise they have no idea how to rectify it. Apparently, they claimed that the german engineers have even looked at the brakes. It really sad because the car is really very good to drive. Anyone got similar problems with their F20?
My family has a F20 116i that has been plagued with problems, not so much with the drive because it actually drives beautifully. Just that there is this creaking sound on the left (near rear seat and door area) at times and the brakes also decide to squeak super loud at times when approaching a red light. Complain to PML numerous times and its been sent in a couple times already but surprise surprise they have no idea how to rectify it. Apparently, they claimed that the german engineers have even looked at the brakes. It really sad because the car is really very good to drive. Anyone got similar problems with their F20?
Slow_poke_driver
Well-Known Member
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
The pulling sensation when you floor it, is not torque. It is acceleration, or what many will term as "g". It is the same thing that pulls you to the side when you sweep a corner.
Torque and horsepower cannot, and should never be discussed seperately. Torque is power, power is torque. At sensible practical rpm, you cannot have one without the other.
In that case, why diesel seems to pull so much better in city driving? This is because of the torque (and thus power) available at the lower rpm range. If you notice, the 0-100 or even 0-200 timing of the same horsepower engine, be it a 250nm petrol engine or a 400nm diesel engine, is almost the same. Torque alone does not give you that acceleration or pull.
Then when will the torque help acceleration?
Torque will help acceleration (and very greatly) when you or the gearbox refuses to upshift, like when accelerating from 80 to 120km/hr in 8th gear on PIE.
Eh...like that doesn't that mean more torque give you more acceleration and thus, more pull? Contradicting to what you said leh.
True and false. A 200hp engine, regardless of TC, DI, petrol, diesel, 200Nm, 500Nm, etc etc will give the same acceleration. That means whether you have a 200hp 200Nm engine or a 200hp 500Nm engine, the acceleration is not going to be too different. The difference is at what rpm are you accomplishing that acceleration and at what gearing. That means, if one fellow on the 200hp 200Nm engine is willing to put it in the right gear, he will accelerate as fast as another fellow with 200hp 500Nm.
So in a sense it is true that an engine with the same horsepower but higher torque gives better acceleration, and thus more pull, in lower rpm style of driving, especially right off the traffic light. However it does not mean the higher torque engine gives better acceleration always. The absolute maximum amount of acceleration is going to be the same at xxxhp whether you have 1Nm or 1000Nm of torque. It is just at what rpm and can you really have the gearing to put it in the right rpm.
The pulling sensation when you floor it, is not torque. It is acceleration, or what many will term as "g". It is the same thing that pulls you to the side when you sweep a corner.
Torque and horsepower cannot, and should never be discussed seperately. Torque is power, power is torque. At sensible practical rpm, you cannot have one without the other.
In that case, why diesel seems to pull so much better in city driving? This is because of the torque (and thus power) available at the lower rpm range. If you notice, the 0-100 or even 0-200 timing of the same horsepower engine, be it a 250nm petrol engine or a 400nm diesel engine, is almost the same. Torque alone does not give you that acceleration or pull.
Then when will the torque help acceleration?
Torque will help acceleration (and very greatly) when you or the gearbox refuses to upshift, like when accelerating from 80 to 120km/hr in 8th gear on PIE.
Eh...like that doesn't that mean more torque give you more acceleration and thus, more pull? Contradicting to what you said leh.
True and false. A 200hp engine, regardless of TC, DI, petrol, diesel, 200Nm, 500Nm, etc etc will give the same acceleration. That means whether you have a 200hp 200Nm engine or a 200hp 500Nm engine, the acceleration is not going to be too different. The difference is at what rpm are you accomplishing that acceleration and at what gearing. That means, if one fellow on the 200hp 200Nm engine is willing to put it in the right gear, he will accelerate as fast as another fellow with 200hp 500Nm.
So in a sense it is true that an engine with the same horsepower but higher torque gives better acceleration, and thus more pull, in lower rpm style of driving, especially right off the traffic light. However it does not mean the higher torque engine gives better acceleration always. The absolute maximum amount of acceleration is going to be the same at xxxhp whether you have 1Nm or 1000Nm of torque. It is just at what rpm and can you really have the gearing to put it in the right rpm.
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
to add on
HowStuffWorks "What's the difference between torque and horsepower?"
to add on
HowStuffWorks "What's the difference between torque and horsepower?"
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
At the end of the day i guess with the feel of more torque or not, diesel is cheaper to fill, its engines have much better consumption and its cleaner with lower emissions. Should really be a no-brainer.
N54toN47;969920 said:
At the end of the day i guess with the feel of more torque or not, diesel is cheaper to fill, its engines have much better consumption and its cleaner with lower emissions. Should really be a no-brainer.
Singsider
Well-Known Member
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
Bro, thanks for the link to that article on How stuff works. I found the conversion formula for HP to Nm very interesting.
HP = (Nm x RPM) / 5252
Thus;
Nm = (HP x 5252) / RPM
Now, for argument sake, if an Urvan with 130hp were to have only 1Nm of torque to generate all that work, it would need to cycle at 682,760 RPM! At this point I'm wondering which gear you need to be in, in order to achieve that kind of RPM. 400th gear?
As I've said earlier, HP and Torque are related. Both are important in achieving performance. That's why the best supercars have a healthy amount of both. High torque at low rpms for fast launches, and high HP at high rpms to sustain super fast speeds (think twin turbo GT-R!)
Yes, a Civic type R and GTI have similar HP numbers and both accelerate to 100kmh in around the same time. But, the Type R has to hit 6000+rpm to reach peak torque, whereas the GTi reaches its around 3000rpm. In other words, in order to feel the same 'G force', one car needs to floor it, whereas the other one doesn't have to.
Why? Cos one car has more torque than the other. (still don't think torque is important? Sure if you have 400 gears to play with..) This greater torque can be achieved either by forced induction, or higher energy per litre fuels, like diesel, or a combination of both.
Sadly, diesel engines (even turbo ones) don't operate well at high rpms, due to the weight of its internals, piston stroke length and high compression ratio (e.g. a VW GTD maxes out at 5000rpm). That's why it has low HP, cos it doesn't cycle as fast as a petrol engine, which has shorter stroke and lower compression ratios. Nonetheless it still does the century in 8 secs, and top speed is a respectable 220kmh.
So (super) loooong story short, buy a turbo diesel if you like to zip around town and enjoy that G feeling at low rpms. It won't win you a drag race, but they are alot of fun at a low fuel cost.
N54toN47;969923 said:
Bro, thanks for the link to that article on How stuff works. I found the conversion formula for HP to Nm very interesting.
HP = (Nm x RPM) / 5252
Thus;
Nm = (HP x 5252) / RPM
Now, for argument sake, if an Urvan with 130hp were to have only 1Nm of torque to generate all that work, it would need to cycle at 682,760 RPM! At this point I'm wondering which gear you need to be in, in order to achieve that kind of RPM. 400th gear?
As I've said earlier, HP and Torque are related. Both are important in achieving performance. That's why the best supercars have a healthy amount of both. High torque at low rpms for fast launches, and high HP at high rpms to sustain super fast speeds (think twin turbo GT-R!)
Yes, a Civic type R and GTI have similar HP numbers and both accelerate to 100kmh in around the same time. But, the Type R has to hit 6000+rpm to reach peak torque, whereas the GTi reaches its around 3000rpm. In other words, in order to feel the same 'G force', one car needs to floor it, whereas the other one doesn't have to.
Why? Cos one car has more torque than the other. (still don't think torque is important? Sure if you have 400 gears to play with..) This greater torque can be achieved either by forced induction, or higher energy per litre fuels, like diesel, or a combination of both.
Sadly, diesel engines (even turbo ones) don't operate well at high rpms, due to the weight of its internals, piston stroke length and high compression ratio (e.g. a VW GTD maxes out at 5000rpm). That's why it has low HP, cos it doesn't cycle as fast as a petrol engine, which has shorter stroke and lower compression ratios. Nonetheless it still does the century in 8 secs, and top speed is a respectable 220kmh.
So (super) loooong story short, buy a turbo diesel if you like to zip around town and enjoy that G feeling at low rpms. It won't win you a drag race, but they are alot of fun at a low fuel cost.
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ccc
Well-Known Member
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
Yes simple but ugly tape around the door seal area will solve the cabin squeaky noise.
I thought only m sport brakes got sound. Raining days or cold start always got sound when car comes to a complete stop. MA also say it is normal. Ok lor just live with it.
Yes simple but ugly tape around the door seal area will solve the cabin squeaky noise.
I thought only m sport brakes got sound. Raining days or cold start always got sound when car comes to a complete stop. MA also say it is normal. Ok lor just live with it.
Ah yang
Well-Known Member
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
Like i said. S long can bring u complete n safe stop. Its a gd brake liao. Imagine my stupid old liteace brake master pump n rotor all gone. Cant even hv feel. Lucky it break down once reach workshop. Cant imagine how if on the rd
ccc;970003 said:Yes simple but ugly tape around the door seal area will solve the cabin squeaky noise.
I thought only m sport brakes got sound. Raining days or cold start always got sound when car comes to a complete stop. MA also say it is normal. Ok lor just live with it.
Like i said. S long can bring u complete n safe stop. Its a gd brake liao. Imagine my stupid old liteace brake master pump n rotor all gone. Cant even hv feel. Lucky it break down once reach workshop. Cant imagine how if on the rd
Slow_poke_driver
Well-Known Member
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
Firstly, 5252 is conversion number for ang moh unit. Don't know what is the conversion factor for metric.
Secondly, you don't need 400th gear. You need a shorter final gear, i.e. 6 speed AT with a short final gear if there is very little torque. End of the day, torque at wheel is dependent on final gear also. I never go check the BMW numbers, but I suspect BMW probably have a taller final gear on the diesel than the petrol to account for the increased torque but lower red line.
Thirdly, a very common misconception is that if my engine is rated at 100Nm@2000-4000rpm 100hp, I will get 100hp 100Nm as long as I am within power band. This is actually not true. You still need to floor it (or at least give it a lot of throttle) to get that 100Nm@ 2000-4000rpm, even if you are at 3000rpm. Power and torque does not magically appear just because you are at that rpm. The engine need air and fuel to produce that...and that fuel and air will be supplied when you step on it. The difference between an engine at 100Nm@2000-4000rpm 100hp vs another at 100Nm@5000-6000rpm 100hp is that one requires you to downshift when you step on it. The other does not. For both, you still need to step on it.
Maybe lets think about it from another perspective. On a car with 100hp@3000-6000rpm, if you are at 80km/hr and you shift to 3rd from 8th, your rpm will shoot up. At the same time, if you release your accelerator, how many horses will the engine make? Very few, otherwise you can start sueing bmw for unintended acceleration.
Singsider;969954 said:Bro, thanks for the link to that article on How stuff works. I found the conversion formula for HP to Nm very interesting.
HP = (Nm x RPM) / 5252
Thus;
Nm = (HP x 5252) / RPM
Now, for argument sake, if an Urvan with 130hp were to have only 1Nm of torque to generate all that work, it would need to cycle at 682,760 RPM! At this point I'm wondering which gear you need to be in, in order to achieve that kind of RPM. 400th gear?
As I've said earlier, HP and Torque are related. Both are important in achieving performance. That's why the best supercars have a healthy amount of both. High torque at low rpms for fast launches, and high HP at high rpms to sustain super fast speeds (think twin turbo GT-R!)
Yes, a Civic type R and GTI have similar HP numbers and both accelerate to 100kmh in around the same time. But, the Type R has to hit 6000+rpm to reach peak torque, whereas the GTi reaches its around 3000rpm. In other words, in order to feel the same 'G force', one car needs to floor it, whereas the other one doesn't have to.
Why? Cos one car has more torque than the other. (still don't think torque is important? Sure if you have 400 gears to play with..) This greater torque can be achieved either by forced induction, or higher energy per litre fuels, like diesel, or a combination of both.
Sadly, diesel engines (even turbo ones) don't operate well at high rpms, due to the weight of its internals, piston stroke length and high compression ratio (e.g. a VW GTD maxes out at 5000rpm). That's why it has low HP, cos it doesn't cycle as fast as a petrol engine, which has shorter stroke and lower compression ratios. Nonetheless it still does the century in 8 secs, and top speed is a respectable 220kmh.
So (super) loooong story short, buy a turbo diesel if you like to zip around town and enjoy that G feeling at low rpms. It won't win you a drag race, but they are alot of fun at a low fuel cost.
Firstly, 5252 is conversion number for ang moh unit. Don't know what is the conversion factor for metric.
Secondly, you don't need 400th gear. You need a shorter final gear, i.e. 6 speed AT with a short final gear if there is very little torque. End of the day, torque at wheel is dependent on final gear also. I never go check the BMW numbers, but I suspect BMW probably have a taller final gear on the diesel than the petrol to account for the increased torque but lower red line.
Thirdly, a very common misconception is that if my engine is rated at 100Nm@2000-4000rpm 100hp, I will get 100hp 100Nm as long as I am within power band. This is actually not true. You still need to floor it (or at least give it a lot of throttle) to get that 100Nm@ 2000-4000rpm, even if you are at 3000rpm. Power and torque does not magically appear just because you are at that rpm. The engine need air and fuel to produce that...and that fuel and air will be supplied when you step on it. The difference between an engine at 100Nm@2000-4000rpm 100hp vs another at 100Nm@5000-6000rpm 100hp is that one requires you to downshift when you step on it. The other does not. For both, you still need to step on it.
Maybe lets think about it from another perspective. On a car with 100hp@3000-6000rpm, if you are at 80km/hr and you shift to 3rd from 8th, your rpm will shoot up. At the same time, if you release your accelerator, how many horses will the engine make? Very few, otherwise you can start sueing bmw for unintended acceleration.
ccc
Well-Known Member
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
For diesel passenger cars, so far i only tested the jag xf 2.2 diesel. It feels fast at first but then like no power once the speed picks up. Kind of anti climax. And it is not comfy for passengers especially in a city start stop situation. Feels jerky like driving a manual lorry.
In Sg, not practical to drive a diesel car yet.
If can tahan high FC and high road tax, i still prefer NA 3.5L V6 like the one in GS350. Very smooth and shiok!
For diesel passenger cars, so far i only tested the jag xf 2.2 diesel. It feels fast at first but then like no power once the speed picks up. Kind of anti climax. And it is not comfy for passengers especially in a city start stop situation. Feels jerky like driving a manual lorry.
In Sg, not practical to drive a diesel car yet.
If can tahan high FC and high road tax, i still prefer NA 3.5L V6 like the one in GS350. Very smooth and shiok!
Re: F20 120d Sport and M-Sport heading here in June
i drove that too when my friend's XJ (SWB this time) was in the shop getting the creaky roof looked at. Didn't have this jerkiness that you were talking about. How does Diesel and Jerkiness go together? You telling me more than half of Europe's newly bought cars are all jerking around?
i drove that too when my friend's XJ (SWB this time) was in the shop getting the creaky roof looked at. Didn't have this jerkiness that you were talking about. How does Diesel and Jerkiness go together? You telling me more than half of Europe's newly bought cars are all jerking around?
