Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Ascendant Motorsport

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The images below are geometrically accurate. Track boundary has had offsets applied to narrow width by 1.8m (typical road car width), so driven line radii are accurate.

No answers are given below, just an illustration of the multiple tradeoffs within a relatively simple 2 turn sector. It should show why different classes of vehicle take different lines through this and other sectors, and why even within the same class, different setups cause drivers to select different lines. The same logic can be applied to any other compromise sector, at any track.

For a start, the most basic problem a driver encounters in some cases trying to apply what most entry level books and schools recommend in terms of always using all the track width.

pVilA.jpg


kiScG.png


Given the dimensions and scale in the two images above, and assuming maximum lateral acceleration of 1G, work the following out.

1) What are the true driven radii for T7, and for T8? And the maximum speed along both?

2) If the widest possible non-closing and non-opening arc (as shown) is driven through T7, how far will the car overshoot the turn in point for T8 by, assuming the T8 line is the widest possible non-closing and non-opening arc (as also shown)?

3) What is the average yaw rate of the car through T7, and for T8 separately, on the arcs shown?

4) If the car is to stay on the arcs shown, at the point where the lines intersect, borrowing half a second from the T7 line and half a second from the T8 line across which the yaw rates can rise above what the lines will support, ignoring yaw inertia, and human control limits, what is the average yaw rate in the 1 second period centered over the point of intersection?


There are a further 9 case images - matrices involving closing and opening radii, missing one or both apexes, running to different track boundaries or not, etc. each with different compromise balances to illustrate, simulation results, supported by real life lines and their accompanying sector times but first let's try to actively work on the problem together and not just look for free and easy answers, which are often unsupported and false. Put in your time and others will put in theirs. Show your test results, and others will too.



Best Regards,
AM
 
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Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Hi,

Seeing how relatively quiet this thread has been, below are my efforts.

Only did the calculation for T8 as I am working without a proper calculator and measuring off the monitor.

My answers are below.

Radii for T7 will be slightly less but almost the same, which allows for the driver to take both corners as one.

1) What are the true driven radii for T7, and for T8? And the maximum speed along both?
T8 R=115m
Max. speed T8 = 108km/h

I think answers can be quite varied although as there seem to be a fair bit of assumptions to variables. Perhaps there are easier methods to calculate and I will be happy to learn. I didn't exactly make use of the 1g lateral value although that gave me a guide to the assumptions I had to make. I will be keen to how that fits in.

Hopefully this will get things started. :)
 
Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Hi Pdreams, thanks for the effort mate. If you are at a computer, there's MS Excel, MS calculator, and if you have your cellphone nearby, there's a calculator in it. Do try to use a calculator and the numbers provided to get closer than +/- 10% , since others may join later and want to compare numbers.

Please also try to work out radius and speed for T7 as well using the actual 1G, and answers for Q2, 3, 4 too. The required numbers have all been provided and assumptions have been stated clearly in the first post, so there answers will not vary much at all. The variables have been minimized so core concepts can be illustrated. Thanks and cheers.
 
Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Ascendant Motorsport;653381 said:
Hi Pdreams, thanks for the effort mate. If you are at a computer, there's MS Excel, MS calculator, and if you have your cellphone nearby, there's a calculator in it. Do try to use a calculator and the numbers provided to get closer than +/- 10% , since others may join later and want to compare numbers.

Please also try to work out radius and speed for T7 as well using the actual 1G, and answers for Q2, 3, 4 too. The required numbers have all been provided and assumptions have been stated clearly in the first post, so there answers will not vary much at all. The variables have been minimized so core concepts can be illustrated. Thanks and cheers.

Hi AM,

It sure feels like an education on using alternate forms of calculator and of course, I had to use my phone and PC, just that I much prefer to work using my scientific calculator.

Nonetheless, good fun and I shall look forward to the answers in the future to compare although I am already thinking...when will that be..

Cheers
 
Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Even a basic calculator would get one within a decimal or two of answer and certainly no measurement off the monitor is needed. All required information has been provided. Don't worry, sooner or later someone will be along with answers and we can move on to the other tradeoffs. Cheers mate
 
Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Yes, the answers are only as accurate as the radii, which is only as good as the driven line.

Either case, working on speed using the radii achieved using the simplest of concepts (Ideal for V max) against simpler concepts (More real V values) involving a little more variables already yield significant differences.

While its a good attempt to illustrate concepts, are we being accurate about being inaccurate here?

It would be great that when answers are realised, a comparison can be made between the methods used.

It's a good exercise nonetheless, complicated by non-SI units if I may add.
 
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Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

I must say I'm not really sure if I'm interpreting the data correctly. Here's my attempt at it.

1. Radii & Max Speed
T7
Radius: 121.0 m
Max Speed: 123.5 kph

T8
Radius: 129.5 m
Max Speed: 127.7 kph

2. 10.95 m

3. Yaw Rate
T7: 0.284 rad/s
T8: 0.274 rad/s

4. Don't know. Some tips please?
 
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Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Pdreams, to see where it goes all you have to do is answer the remaining 3 questions and show your working for all 4 questions. The only non SI unit is not an obstacle because only one conversion is necessary. Need to go to numbers and not subjective descriptions. Keeping variables to a minimum is for simplicity and not out of ignorance. After core concepts are understood, one can layer as much complexity and as many variables over it as one wants.

As mentioned in the first post, it is the first out of roughly 9 scenarios and the simplest most instinctive one. Once problems or challenges with it are shown along with possible solutions in that specific situation, then we'll move on to better solutions. Cheers
 
Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Hi AM,

I interpreted the scenario into a complicated one or rather, the terms non-closing and non-opening (First time I came across such a description). It did not come across that it was a constant radius line to me. Its never easy to phrase a question to be understandable in my opinion.

So, if thats the case and need not go through the details


1.
T7: 121m, Vmax = 124km/h
T8: 130m, Vmax = 129km/h.

2.
dist = 10.96m (assuming small angle approx.)

3.
omega T7 = 16.3 deg/s
omega T8 = 15.7 deg/s

4.
omega = 22.6 deg/s

Some doubts on 4. but thats my answer for now.
 
Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

its been 15yrs since i needed to do math like this, so i wont try...

but based on my pbox data, at approx 1G i am doing T7 at 108km/h and T8 at 113 km/h

i am prob not on the perfect line but at these speeds i am the edge of losing traction however people have told me i should be doing T7-8 at 120-130km/h

i suspect the theoretical max speed depends greatly on the tires / car as well
 
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Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Kuvesh, as Pdreams alluded to earlier, all real life lines are imperfect (especially at entry and exit..the more transient the less perfect) and nearly all the time they vary in radius - reducing on increasing in different phases of a single turn. Then there are surface imperfections and different cars, tires, setup, etc. As such, there is not much use in comparing real life data to the level of specific speeds.

The purpose of this thread is not to calculate limits for a specific car, or recommend a specific line - it is only to illustrate the issues with different approaches. The only comparison with real life data should be the type and location of challenges faced, in this and the following solutions. Shortly we'll be moving on to variable radius line scenarios which will fit real life lines closer but still not perfectly fit. We are also not modeling the vehicle at all because it is too specific for this thread's purpose.
 
Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Any update on this T7T8 discussion? Can I have some guidance on Q4 please?
 
Re: Sepang T7T8 Sector And Tradeoff Logic

Yes real soon sorry. Physically and mentally drained currently - very long day at the track. Can type non structured casual stuff now, but prefer to rest before focusing and structuring text better. Also have to generate screenshots and upload the next case, etc. Cheers
 
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