Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

[centurion]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

I realised that no one has directly answered my question.

How do we, as laymen, compare ARBs? Assuming diameter is the most obvious measurable dimension in evaluating ARB (cause clearly it is the most direct input in determining stiffness, besides material used), is that any optimal diameter we are looking at relative to kerb weight, for instance? I mean, how do we ascertain that 27mm is the best diameter? What if there is a 29 mm version? Example, for a 1.6-ton E90, what is the optimal diameter? For E60?

How do we know how each mm increases the stiffness of the car relative to stock ARBs in % terms?

kenn i'm not even going to try to answer your question directly because I don't know. What I know from my Civic days is that the only way to know was to install and test and install and test. Can shortcut the process by actually driving in friend's cars' first, see what works, then install.

And what is optimal for one style is not optimal for the other. Because I really hate oversteer (REALLY REALLY HATE) my habit is more biased towards late corner apex, so I prefer the ARB to be pretty flex.

Just a interesting factoid: the original McLaren F1 street edition does not have rear anti roll bar, because they tried installing it and the car became undriveable. The suspension geometry sorta minimized the rear weight transfer issue, obviating the need for a rear ARB.

 

[C3P0]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

I am also interested to find out about ARB. The technical information shared here by everyone is definitely useful to me.

My first question is, my stock E46 318ia got ARB or not? (Don't laugh hoh, I used to drive X-wing fighter so don't know much about cars.) But I am wary about tweaking my stock car because I'm afraid it will affect other parts - hence causing too much wear and tear on other parts - hence having to spend more money.
(Now anyone trying to shoot me will die a terrible death because I am just asking a very simple question, not stirring any shit hoh.)
jinooi, our car got ARB or not?

 

[kenntona]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

But when someone says "ABC company's ARB is better because of my butt dyno" then you'd probably have to be:

a) An authority on the subject (suspension expert)
b) Have a lot of data to substantiate your position and thus prove the worth of your butt dyno

Because that is a pretty bold claim and reviews to any degree will have positive and/or negative effects for all products mentioned, whether end-user, vendor etc. We're talking about livelihoods in some cases here.

No offense to your view, but this sounds far fetched.

Someone like FP is clearly not "an authority on the subject (suspension expert)", and hence lends very little credibility in terms of product endorsement, if such element is suspected. No offense to FP too. But what sort of substantial "positive and/or negative effects for all products mentioned" are we talking about? That the forumers here will listen to her evaluation and swing in favour of Hotchkis away from H&R?

Too presumptuous to assume our forumers are that naive, would you not agree?

 

[Breyton]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

I realised that no one has directly answered my question.

How do we, as laymen, compare ARBs? Assuming diameter is the most obvious measurable dimension in evaluating ARB (cause clearly it is the most direct input in determining stiffness, besides material used), is that any optimal diameter we are looking at relative to kerb weight, for instance? I mean, how do we ascertain that 27mm is the best diameter? What if there is a 29 mm version? Example, for a 1.6-ton E90, what is the optimal diameter? For E60?

How do we know how each mm increases the stiffness of the car relative to stock ARBs in % terms?

Correct me if I'm wrong - I think the function of the ARB is to connect the left and right side of the suspension so that when one side is compressed during cornering, the ARB acts as a torsion spring to compress the other side, hence 'levelling' the car and reducing roll and maximising the tyres' contact with the road.

The drawback is that the suspension loses some of its independence - bumps felt on one side are also transmitted to the other side. The thicker the ARB (i.e. more torsional rigidity), the less independent the two sides are and over bumpy roads, you might actually lose traction when 'crashing' over the bumps.

The quality of the roads that the prospective buyer uses then become important - ARBs for a particular model of car that are deemed 'too bumpy' for UK roads might be fine on the much smoother roads of Sg, for example (Kimi might disagree re the bumps!). So, I think it is difficult for laymen to choose ARBs based on specs alone. 'Optimal diameter' would likely be different for different locales.

 

[TobyNik]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Oi! Why no one ans my ARB qns also huh? 335 ARBs can help my car or not huh....mine is 2.5L nia......


Bro Shameless,

You are steady! You thinking what I am thinking about the very knowledgeable people here lah.........JIA PAH KA ENG......see lah......TUCK CHIE many many can use words to hoot people wan......

Those who are students here, better study hard hoh....you see....pen mightier than the fist...or is it "sword"????.......aiya see lah!!! BOH TUCK CHIE lor............

Chill man, chill......

 

[Breyton]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Oi! Why no one ans my ARB qns also huh? 335 ARBs can help my car or not huh....mine is 2.5L nia......

....pen mightier than the fist...or is it "sword"????.......aiya see lah!!! BOH TUCK CHIE lor..........

Um, cos maybe no one really knows?

And these days it should be 'keyboard mightier than the sword'....

 

[Mockngbrd]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Correct me if I'm wrong - I think the function of the ARB is to connect the left and right side of the suspension so that when one side is compressed during cornering, the ARB acts as a torsion spring to compress the other side, hence 'levelling' the car and reducing roll and maximising the tyres' contact with the road.

The drawback is that the suspension loses some of its independence - bumps felt on one side are also transmitted to the other side. The thicker the ARB (i.e. more torsional rigidity), the less independent the two sides are and over bumpy roads, you might actually lose traction when 'crashing' over the bumps.

The quality of the roads that the prospective buyer uses then become important - ARBs for a particular model of car that are deemed 'too bumpy' for UK roads might be fine on the much smoother roads of Sg, for example (Kimi might disagree re the bumps!). So, I think it is difficult for laymen to choose ARBs based on specs alone. 'Optimal diameter' would likely be different for different locales.

i choose by value for $$$ and price. hehe...
don't really need too thick for my slow driving, heard really thick ones wld require reinforcing to the mounting points too.

Oi! Why no one ans my ARB qns also huh? 335 ARBs can help my car or not huh....mine is 2.5L nia......

go try a 335i handling and see if u like it lo

 

[jinooi]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

aiyah, don't pichia my lobang. i'm not driving 318 lah... kekeke... otherwise nobody would want to race me at sepang... :nehnehhh:

jokes aside, yes, we do. but the stock arb on our ride is quite thin. if i remember correctly, it's front 21mm and rear 18mm or around that.

my H&R upgrade - 27 front and 21 rear

upgraded arb will not result in increased wear and tear on your ride (or so i was told / i read / did my research - damn wary of posting anything that is not supported by hard facts). it has helped improve the handling of my ride, especially when cornering (butt feel, eye see, body lean, speed is higher when cornering without fear for slippage, body roll less... need i say more? *pant, pant*)

and yes, like you, i miss phil too...

I am also interested to find out about ARB. The technical information shared here by everyone is definitely useful to me.

My first question is, my stock E46 318ia got ARB or not? (Don't laugh hoh, I used to drive X-wing fighter so don't know much about cars.) But I am wary about tweaking my stock car because I'm afraid it will affect other parts - hence causing too much wear and tear on other parts - hence having to spend more money.
(Now anyone trying to shoot me will die a terrible death because I am just asking a very simple question, not stirring any shit hoh.)
jinooi, our car got ARB or not?

Wish Phil is around to put out fire with his A...K...M.....

 

[kenntona]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

It varies from model to model and what the owner is trying to do with the car, surfaces driven over, and what the owner will tolerate and the type of driver he is. There is no general optimal because it comes down to some fine specifics. The amount of time required for measurement and calculation is not worth it for the enthusiast, and for his targets trial and error will come out ahead both time and cost wise. Efficiency and optimization is usually pretty low on street car list of priorities also because to really achieve it costs a disproportionate amount of money and time. If you're talking about racing then it is different, but that doesn't apply here.

kenn i'm not even going to try to answer your question directly because I don't know. What I know from my Civic days is that the only way to know was to install and test and install and test. Can shortcut the process by actually driving in friend's cars' first, see what works, then install. And what is optimal for one style is not optimal for the other. Because I really hate oversteer (REALLY REALLY HATE) my habit is more biased towards late corner apex, so I prefer the ARB to be pretty flex.

So there is no objective criteria to measure what suits which car best, rather it boils down to preferences of the driver, and even that cannot be objective, given the "butt-feel" nature. How is one gonna know which is optimal, given that trial and error is economically not feasible - no one will switch between few brands on ARBs to try out the feel?

So the laymen driver will pick based on some "perceived-to-be-objective" criteria, such as diameter of the swaybars in my case. Obviously, if "true auto enthusiasts" like you two gurus do not know, then the laymen will be making hell lots of wrong (or less-than-optimal) purchase decisions too. In fact, I find that most of the mods fall into this sort of decision making - coilovers, struts, CAI for example - where no readily quantitative information is available. But when one installed them, there will be a "better" product out there.

 

[C3P0]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

aiyah, don't pichia my lobang. i'm not driving 318 lah... kekeke... otherwise nobody would want to race me at sepang... :nehnehhh:

jokes aside, yes, we do. but the stock arb on our ride is quite thin. if i remember correctly, it's front 21mm and rear 18mm or around that.

H&R upgrade - 27 front and 21 rear.

upgraded arb will not result in increased wear and tear on your ride (or so i was told / i read / did my research - damn wary of posting anything that is not supported by hard facts). it has helped improve the handling of my ride, especially when cornering (butt feel, eye see, body lean, speed is higher when cornering without fear for slippage, body roll less... need i say more? *pant, pant*)

and yes, like you, i miss phil too...

Ok, next time I will ask "Phil's car got ARB or not huh?"

Anyway, thanks for your answer bro. Just to let you know, Tobynick ,like you, has deserted me :furious: Nowadays I smoke alone, sob...sob...damn sad...sorry for OT.

Ok, now, seriously, thanks for letting me know our ARB size. I think I must upgrade a bit and see the difference....

 

[Crufty Dusty]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Don't think it is far-fetched, in fact that is a requirement in some countries for overt advertising. If I say my product is 5 times faster at performing task A as compared to a competitor, I have to be able to substantiate my claims or be accused of false advertising. Obviously an independent "consumer review" is not subject to the same level of rigor as a company hawking its wares, but the point is that we must strive to a standard to which products can be measured, quantified, so on and so forth, even if said standard is flawed etc (that is a topic deserving of a separate thread).

Since most of us aren't experts in everything there is to know, we would have to rely on third parties who would ideally have the qualities listed earlier.

In FP's case, her standard was her "butt dyno" which she did admit was entirely subjective. All Shaun did was point out that she was neither an authority on the subject nor had any data to bolster her position. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a personal attack. Don't see why everyone is getting all worked up over it.

We are in the age of the amateurs. This is the whole crux of the argument. Anecdotally, I can't even begin to count the number of times I had to undo all sorts of damage people have done just because they "read it on the internet". Now, more than ever, critical thinking skills are in high demand.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Um, cos maybe no one really knows?

The info is there, in books or condensed in the minds of those who have applied it in real life, some of whom are willing to share but who have been put off by the spirit of illogic and pure emotion that continues to grow in this forum. Why should they even try anymore?

The reason most people don't already know it is because they constantly dismiss anything longer than 2 sentences as too technical, too chim. It is not that it's not there for the taking, it's that these same people don't really want to know. They only care about joking and insinuation.. everything's a game to them. Nothing's straight, honest, earnest. But they're only screwing themselves because the lack of knowledge allows vendors to suggest things and sway their soft subective minds.

The easy 2 sentence answer that fits all cases does not exist. Some people are too ignorant to realize this.

 

[TobyNik]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

i choose by value for $$$ and price. hehe...
don't really need too thick for my slow driving, heard really thick ones wld require reinforcing to the mounting points too.


go try a 335i handling and see if u like it lo

Mock,

Ok, ok... I go try then post useful reviews ok? But layman descriptions only ya?

Ok, seriously...I was hoping that someone has info on whether the 335 ARBs are thicker than it's "lesser" siblings' ARBs cos I am under the impression that usually the thicker they are, the better especially within the same models but different capacity. I guess they were not fitted with the thicker ones in the first place because of costs issues and product postioning. So, I was hoping for someone with a 325/320 fitted with 335 ARBs to help out here lah.....................Eh SAI Boh, Bro Breyton?

And yes yes, you are right, these days "Keyboard mightier than sword!"

And BTW, MOCK....cannot tell how the ARBs will feel if trying a 335 leh....Car dynamics and weight different lah.........

 

[acupunch]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

this thread is similar to the thread who thread starter asking which DSLR?

its hard to conclude an A brand better than B brand. i often see it this way, why do u need to change that stock part? for the case of ARB, to reduce rolling? to improve stiffness? choose a brand you can afford and trust from friends/mechanics recommendation would be good enough.

sometime I asked why do we want to reduce the body roll? is the roll of the stock set up really that bad? on a normal-intermediate driving, I doubt majority of the driver in Singapore will attack a corner or swift lane that generates 2-3 G forces. within this, most ARB that come stockwith the car likely to be adequate. even on m'sia B road.

 

[centurion]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

How is one gonna know which is optimal, given that trial and error is economically not feasible - no one will switch between few brands on ARBs to try out the feel?

Think that's why he initially ask mah ... hence,

'So Fiercepink, I was wondering what led you to that conclusion? How are the two brands different that would make one better than the other? I'm curious'

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

So there is no objective criteria to measure what suits which car best, rather it boils down to preferences of the driver, and even that cannot be objective, given the "butt-feel" nature. How is one gonna know which is optimal, given that trial and error is economically not feasible - no one will switch between few brands on ARBs to try out the feel?

No, there are absolutely objective ways to quantify the changes. But they cost too much for enthusiasts. Would you spend 20K SGD and maybe 70 hours of downtime to set up a base with which to optimize your bar set up (among other things)?

Butt feel is fast and cheap and works to a large degree, but when it comes to real accuracy, doesn't work. 10 - 20 years ago probably, not anymore.

Butt feel in this case has never been questioned because the alternatives are too expensive. The question was the comparison.

So the laymen driver will pick based on some "perceived-to-be-objective" criteria, such as diameter of the swaybars in my case. Obviously, if "true auto enthusiasts" like you two gurus do not know, then the laymen will be making hell lots of wrong (or less-than-optimal) purchase decisions too. In fact, I find that most of the mods fall into this sort of decision making - coilovers, struts, CAI for example - where no readily quantitative information is available. But when one installed them, there will be a "better" product out there.

Please leave the tags out of this and deal with the points.

Yes feel is used a lot, in other areas there are cheap methods of quantification, not so with suspension optimization (which bars are a part of).

Feel was never questioned when it came to bars.. read first post again..

 

[jinooi]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

now that you guys have stirred my curiosity, i would like to point out that nobody has offered to answer the damn question... YET!!!

what are the considerations when choosing arb?
weight?
material?
diameter?
type of mounts / bushings?

and what sort of arb is suitable for the different styles of driving? street / fast and furious / track?

have read up so much on arb, coilovers, strut bars, exhaust systems, bushings... you name it... i am inclined to take a huge pinch of salt on what each and every manufacturer claims, e.g. rogue, UUC, turner, SSDD, CA, vorshlag, etc...

and coming from the ad industry, i advise everyone to do the same. we make people want the things they don't need. although i won't admit to being the culprit in this case.

sometimes, butt feel is the better way (besides empirical evidence, which may mean nothing at the end of the day)...

at the end of the day, there will always be something better out there, or someone who claims that their stuff is better than yours. you will never have enough money or time to dispute all the claims you think are fallacious, unless you damn bloody boh liao...

bottomline - spend money already must be happy... anybody disagree?

 

[Breyton]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

...I am under the impression that usually the thicker they are, the better especially within the same models but different capacity. I guess they were not fitted with the thicker ones in the first place because of costs issues and product postioning. So, I was hoping for someone with a 325/320 fitted with 335 ARBs to help out here lah.....................Eh SAI Boh, Bro Breyton?

Eh sai... like what Silver always say about mods - you happy can already loh.... dun care what others say. lol.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Happiness with mods is good. But converting satisfaction to declarations of brand superiority over another, is unfair and harmful.

 

[TobyNik]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

now that you guys have stirred my curiosity, i would like to point out that nobody has offered to answer the damn question... YET!!!

what are the considerations when choosing arb?
weight?
material?
diameter?
type of mounts / bushings?

and what sort of arb is suitable for the different styles of driving? street / fast and furious / track?

have read up so much on arb, coilovers, strut bars, exhaust systems, bushings... you name it... i am inclined to take a huge pinch of salt on what each and every manufacturer claims, e.g. rogue, UUC, turner, SSDD, CA, vorshlag, etc...

and coming from the ad industry, i advise everyone to do the same. we make people want the things they don't need. although i won't admit to being the culprit in this case.

sometimes, butt feel is the better way (besides empirical evidence, which may mean nothing at the end of the day)...

at the end of the day, there will always be something better out there, or someone who claims that their stuff is better than yours. you will never have enough money or time to dispute all the claims you think are fallacious, unless you damn bloody boh liao...

bottomline - spend money already must be happy... anybody disagree?

Brudder,

SENG KI LAI, MAI LIAO SIN.....

TAHN JIA KANG KOR, happy tio hoh!

BTW, didn't know you got H&R Sways......Must try! hahaha!