Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

[TripleM]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

hmm... jack..how come ah more satisfying ah?

btw i remember about ur post somewhere saying that if u install ARB after coilover cannot really feel...

so i think.. coilover is the most important one for butt feel... and actual handling..

how about ARB? do they Really make that much difference? or merely for butt feel when doing spirited driving on the road?

or really makes a difference in track?

i dunoo man......


btw i also dunno if hotchkis get more hot chicks staring at ur car...

but i know bling bling rims does...

Dont get me wrong, having a stiffer ARB gives you a nice driving pleasure on a spirited driving on the street..BUT it doesnt improve your braking, it doesnt really improve your traction and acceleration/deceleration, it doesnt improve the handling sharpness of a car..
It's largely a feel that u get coz the car rolls lesser when you are at corners.

Having a good set up of dampers/setting on the other hand, do alot of wonders that many describe as being a difference between heaven and earth vs say the stock set up (which is not all bad, mind you )

It is a matter of choice to be honest....if one wants to take the car's handling to a much higher level which u can feel as u roll, then an upgraded dampers/springs are for you to enjoy..Not only the car feels tight but also feels very sharp with grin all over your Indo face...

Of course, it comes with a heftier price tag and IMO, it's all worth it..
I'd save up to pay 3K for a good set of dampers/springs any time in my life over a 1K of ARB.

In many cases, we hv seen where people are happy with their stock cup suspension set up but wanna solve a bit of the OS/US issues then ARB can help to a certain degree...like in FF cars, many go for stiffer rear ARB to induce a more neutral handling which is fine...Again, it's a matter of choice...Do it as you please, read on....

Ai Take Corner Mai?

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

, it doesnt really improve your traction and acceleration/deceleration, it doesnt improve the handling sharpness of a car..

I tend to disagree with these two points. ARBs are often used to trade lateral and longitudinal acceleration depending on the course and can significantly affect traction and acceleration coming off a corner. ARBs also affect roll stiffness and so directly affect how quickly a car takes a set which is a big part of handling sharpness.

I think both effects above are significant. Not that damping and spring rates don't play a big (or bigger) role, but that ARBs have a large influence on handling and still are used as a tuning tool even in racing.

 

[Terry]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

knn...so chim......

i just mod bodykit and rims and exhaust...

then put lowering spring... no need headache..

 

[Terry]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

btw.....F1 car got sway bar anot?

 

[totoseow]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

got massa was seen in one after he pulled the intestine out.

he went to a sway bar - i was there..he complained he damn sway when i gave him a beer.

 

[SHAMELESS]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Bro Shameless,

You are steady! You thinking what I am thinking about the very knowledgeable people here lah.........JIA PAH KA ENG......see lah......TUCK CHIE many many can use words to hoot people wan......

KNN, dunno who took down my post on page 1 and 2 leh. somemore never put deleted post somemore...it just dissappeared.... nin na bei.

knowledgeable nebermind. but no EQ one ah....no use lah....hokkien say ah KI LAN!!! hahahhaha

anyway, if 335 ARB thicker or lighter or stronger sure better lah..heee....neber OT liao hor...

ai Kuum mai? rodders say want....

 

[Carcinogenic]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Everything I've wondered I've asked plainly. The response was irrational and emotional, as is the follow up by you guys. It makes me think that perhaps there was hidden motive in the original claim that was questioned, and therefore the fear of it being revealed. This would explain the (continued) over reaction.

So this is the point of your thread? Move on Dude.

 

[SHAMELESS]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

brudder, shaun cannot move on one... Let him write...hahahahhaa... i wanna see how many pages this thread will go... beri interesting...heeee....

all going in circles!!!!! hahahhaha only becos FP ask one simple qns!!!! hahahahaha

ai race mai? i got lousy brand ARBs!!!

 

[SHAMELESS]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

STIR STIR STIR STIRRRRRRR.....hehe

hotchiks ARB is very superior!!!!! hahahhahaa

 

[Carcinogenic]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

You are such an ass
But i drove the car, and butt feel the hotchiks arb is very good also.
That said, if someone wants to question another person's butt feel, dont ask the owner to do simi test here and there just so she can justify her "i think".
Bro Shameless, I THINK u very shameless le

 

[Carcinogenic]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

There are some practical before and after tests that are possible with a very simple and transferable data system, but the unpleasantness doesn't make it worth it to carry out.

Extremely practical. 20 minutes. Cost to FP? Zero.

So obviously you are trying to be difficult here.
For the benefit of forumers, do state what are these "test".
And do explain why they the cost is zero but unpleasantness doesn't make it worth it to carry out.
All for the sake of ARBs

 

[SHAMELESS]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

You are such an ass
But i drove the car, and butt feel the hotchiks arb is very good also.
That said, if someone wants to question another person's butt feel, dont ask the owner to do simi test here and there just so she can justify her "i think".
Bro Shameless, I THINK u very shameless le

Lan jiao lah, they dun call me shameless for nothing hor!!!!

hotchiks ARB still the best lah...pple say want..hahaha

eh bro, we used to make ARBs (replicas) for the evo 8 MRs years back okie...in justin's factory. simi analysis. mostly unquantifiiable lah.....hahahaha. even better than the real thing...u didnt go night drive ah? so free.... i'm waiting for my 24 hr flight back to spore. am passengering back man...boring...

 

[Carcinogenic]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

I may be getting ARBs soon too, which was part of why I asked.
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made me wonder why because like I said, they are a simple part performing a simple function.

I tend to disagree with these two points. ARBs are often used to trade lateral and longitudinal acceleration depending on the course and can significantly affect traction and acceleration coming off a corner. ARBs also affect roll stiffness and so directly affect how quickly a car takes a set which is a big part of handling sharpness.

I think both effects above are significant. Not that damping and spring rates don't play a big (or bigger) role, but that ARBs have a large influence on handling and still are used as a tuning tool even in racing.

IF you need to know the difference, why question her statement unless u drive a GTI? Are the setups for your ride and hers the same? Tell me after throwing in both brands, the setups for both cars will be the same. In this context, you are asking the wrong person, go ask someone who rides the same model as you.
Your simple function has become a large influence even in racing?? Again if its such a large influence, go somewhere else to find your answers. No matter what FP says, you wont be able to apply it to your ride usage.

 

[Carcinogenic]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Lan jiao lah, they dun call me shameless for nothing hor!!!!

hotchiks ARB still the best lah...pple say want..hahaha

eh bro, we used to make ARBs (replicas) for the evo 8 MRs years back okie...in justin's factory. simi analysis. mostly unquantifiiable lah.....hahahaha. even better than the real thing...u didnt go night drive ah? so free.... i'm waiting for my 24 hr flight back to spore. am passengering back man...boring...

ARB also got replica?? Interesting... so yours replica?
I didnt go nightdrive la, wanna wash car but its raining...
Anyway u using H&R? Gavin changed to hotchiks a while back... go try it, u "handling" freak!

 

[Azrielsc]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

KNN, dunno who took down my post on page 1 and 2 leh. somemore never put deleted post somemore...it just dissappeared.... nin na bei.

U want to curse me? I am the one who took down your posts.
__________________

Thread closed.

If no one can debate in a proper and calm matter, then shut up and move on.

All involved in this thread is now given a final warning.

 

[ryan]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

I have reopened this thread and applied necessary infractions against those who have violated the forum rules by either OTing or instigating others in a negative way.

Again, respect forum rules and don't test our patience.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Thankful that thread is open again so on-topic points can be addressed.

So obviously you are trying to be difficult here.
For the benefit of forumers, do state what are these "test".
And do explain why they the cost is zero but unpleasantness doesn't make it worth it to carry out.
All for the sake of ARBs

Not trying to be difficult. After you've been sworn at and name-tagged irrationally, you don't feel like interacting with the person that's done it. No one wants to operate in a hostile atmosphere.

Re: tests, and purely for the benefit of the other forum users (like you said), the cheap-to-run tests use a gyro to measure actual yaw rate of the car through a turn, compared to calculated yaw rate (using lateral acceleration and speed). Difference between the two gives a quantification of over and under steer tendencies. This is one of the cheapest and easiest ways to quantify US/OS characteristics. Equipment has already used before successfully locally and is not that expensive. Plug and play 5 min and more than accurate enough for street car development. Testing this specific, can be on any steady state turn that lasts longer than a couple seconds. You can use a test like this to measure yaw angles and rates before and after a sway bar change.

The other tests to measure ride changes by analyzing vertical accelerations, loads, travels, oscillations in the the sprung mass and the suspension, induced pitch and roll from single wheel bumps at different levels of sway bar stiffnes etc. involve dedicated data systems that as mentioned to Ken earlier, cost a whole lot (20K min. to 200K easy very consertively, hardware alone) and take many tens of hours (possibly well over a hundred hours) to install, setup, and run, before arriving at your first correct conclusion. Not practical for almost all enthusiasts.

IF you need to know the difference, why question her statement unless u drive a GTI? Are the setups for your ride and hers the same? Tell me after throwing in both brands, the setups for both cars will be the same. In this context, you are asking the wrong person, go ask someone who rides the same model as you.

The original comparison mentioned the brands as a whole, so the question was about the two brands as a whole, not specifically the GTI bars from each brand.

Your simple function has become a large influence even in racing?? Again if its such a large influence, go somewhere else to find your answers.

Most components and their function in isolation are simple. The combination of all of these components (the overall vehicle) is the complex part. Each simple component plays a part in overall balance.

For example, a simple bias bar which is nothing but a pivot on a threaded rod, greatly affects ability of car to brake efficiently. Differences in brand of bias bar are sought, doesn't mean they can't serve a part in the complex overall where aero loads, tire sizes and characteristics, and weight transfer along with master cylinder and brake caliper design, and the bias bar itself, all greatly affect total braking effect. So if I currently use or am planning to use a bias bar from brand X, and I hear someone say they think those from brand X could not be as good as those from brand Y, then naturally I'm going to ask what they've noticed, or how they reason that brand X could not be as good as Y. Something super simple like "oh after just 1 week of use we could see that the bar had severely bent. The material they used obviously is way too weak". Nothing else needed.. no measurements, no numbers, just rough reasoning and experience... perfectly fine. From there it would be up to the individual to heed the warning and follow up with their own research.

we used to make ARBs (replicas) for the evo 8 MRs years back okie...in justin's factory. simi analysis. mostly unquantifiiable lah.

Enthusiast aftermarket components can sometimes been made through trial and error. Often they are built that way although very few manufacturers admit to it. The fact that this is done does not mean that there are no scientific ways to manufacture a near optimal bar. The road car manufacturers definitely know what they're doing - only that they have to find an overall balance for all consumers so can't focus on performance alone.. hence the softness and comfort sometimes. Even the top street aftermarket guys also quantify what they do to large degree I'm sure.. too bad they make up such a small % of the total (hence large miss rate in the street car aftermarket). In almost all racing it is quantified very precisely.

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Jinooi, regarding your earlier questions - it is always good to ask questions, but I don't think you should expect an immediate answer when there are more advanced issues being discussed (character defence, secondary ARB function and effects, etc.). This is especially so when the questions you're asking can be turned up almost immediately with a google search and cross referenced with a few independent sources. Axl has been most helpful because he basically helped you to do the searching (he told me he was), condensed it and gave it to you on a platter. The more obscure or open to interpretation a piece of information is, the more suitable it is for discussion on a forum. The basics should ideally gathered by the individuals and brough to the table. If the basics are not gathered, asking is still fine too (after all we're all new to different areas of life, all the way through it), but the less effort put in, the less you should expect a prompt answer. Cheers man.

Tobynik's questions re: 335 thicker bars put on a lower model have not been directly answered because lack of specificity wrt surface, application, preference, driver type. The requirement for specifics has been explained earlier in this thread. Even then it only gets close and more testing is required. If subjective testing is to be done, then the quality of the tester (driver) is absolutely critical.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Does it count towards unsprung weight (other than the struts/springs + brakes + wheels)?

The contribution of swaybars to sprung and unsprung weight has been discussed on the following thread before, early this year.

http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/suspen...r-anti-roll-bars-vs-stock-anti-roll-bars.html

 

[Terry]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

shaun... from ur experience... which swaybar company actually makes proper and useful swaybar with proper research?

im a technical noob... u explain to me too much i also wont understand.... just need ur opinion... personally what swaybar u using?

 

[niteblu]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Lots of interesting, if not a tad heated, debate going on.

I used to think it was thicker = better, end of story.
But this is what got me thinking.
And eventually settling on UUC GenII Swaybarbarians...

Not compared to H&Rs, nor Hotchkiss.
But at least they do bring up some interesting points vis-a-vis Dinan & ACS.

"http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/html_product/sway_barbarian/html_sway_bar/description.htm"

Know most won't click thru to read.
So I'll cut & paste some of it here for your ease of reading.
For Tables/Numbers - Click LINK ABOVE.

I'm not related to UUC, just sharing what helped me decide.
Know that this comes from a UUC website
Is it partisan/biased? likely.
But at least it's numbers based.



What's a Sway Bar?
An anti-sway bar is designed to reduce body roll. It keeps your vehicle flatter in the turns by transferring the pressure exerted on the outboard wheels and applying opposite pressure on the inboard wheels. In this way weight is more evenly applied to all four wheels, helping the vehicle stay more level with the road.
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When comparing the stock sway bar sizes to aftermarket bars, to the 95 M3, you find some interesting results.

Racing Dynamics' dimension further increase the car's tendency to understeer since the new sway bars increase the front stiffness more than the rear. It's increases in stiffness do much to reduce body roll.

Dinan's sway bars are designed to dial in more oversteer, to counteract the factory designed understeer. However, this is at the expense of increase front body roll.

Yet, when applied to the newer M3s, the picture changes.
Racing Dynamics' near equal increases in sway bar stiffness as shown on the 95 M3 are now very skewed. The 96-99 M3's tendency to understeer more than the 95 M3 is increased with the imbalanced nature of the rates of stiffness. Dinan's increases are now less dramatic, but still does not do address the issue of front body roll.

What do the numbers mean to me?

With all of the "mathematical" increases in stiffness, what does it mean to you, the driver? Extensive testing has shown that as driver skill increases (at the track/auto-x) that sway bars that increase stiffness too much cause inside front wheel lift in corners. By making a front end too stiff (to decrease body roll), the chassis is not able to plant both wheels under turns with increased speed. Anything stiffer than a 1.0" front bar has shown to be stiff enough (and can be reduced in stiffness) to be the ideal size.

What about the rear bar?

A common misconception is that the increase in rear bar stiffness alone is the sole cause for bent (or broken) rear sway bar tabs (the tabs which mount the sway bar bushings). In fact, even under race conditions, most racecars do not break the tabs. Rather, rear sway bar tabs bend (or break) because of daily obstacles such as potholes, construction, and other road hazards. It is the sharp transition and weight shift in such conditions which will weaken and stress the factory tabs. In the events that the tabs do break, they are built into the rear subframe of the vehicle, which becomes a costly replacement.

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For your happy reading.