Trackcars / Racecars

[Shaun]

Some months ago some voiced displeasure at picking up considerable red flag time due to spinouts by drivers pushing the limits in some fairly raw and unforgiving trackcars, low yaw inertia, devoid of electronics, etc.

I don't think there was a conclusion to that topic. What's the current BMWsg trackday rule on trackcars like Atoms, 2-11s, Radicals, or production based touring cars?

Factors for consideration? :

1. Driver - pro or enthusiast, in either case, general reputation in terms of how considerate and safe on track
2. Experience with club - has done trackdays with BMWsg before without incident (and how many), or has not done trackdays with BMWsg before, or has done them but with incident(s)
3. Speed differentials - flat or sub 20, quite a bit quicker than most if not all cars at the trackday, or no quicker than lightly modified GTRs in the upper 20s, or some pretty powerful road cars on slicks running mid 20s
4. Risk distribution - how vehicle runs its time - quick in the turns or quick in a straight line, or bit of both
5. Visibility and Collision Safety - size and weight of vehicle, open or closed cockpit, open or closed wheel
6. Electronic aids - stability control, traction control systems or not
   
   more?

If not all trackcars or racecars are banned, which are allowed? If we discuss and clear it up now then later on there's less risk of guys who want to drive them at trackdays who are denied, feeling like they've been discriminated against on a personal basis.

Views please and thanks in advance...

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

i think the more important question. who makes the decision to allow/disallow? what about those who hv caused accidents b4? or been involved with one?

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

no open top cars like radical or atom. no cars without TC or DSC.

no cup cars. has to be legal


im very strongly agst radical or atom types. not becos they r faster. but more bcos they r running agst road cars. if a swift shud hit a atom. there is a big chance the atom driver go up the lorry n i get to eat kali kuay

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

There are a few options to who makes decision :

1. Organizer(s) alone which means Jack or Shawn only
2. Regular participants (3 or more BMW TDs in the last 12 months, threshold can be refined)
3. All participants (1 or more BMW TDs in the last 12 months, with intent to join this or next TD - threshold can be refined)

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

no open top cars like radical or atom. no cars without TC or DSC.

Hmm.. what about 2-11 which has stability control system, and which is like an Elise cept with no windscreen? Not as small, low, bare as an Atom or Radical..

no cup cars. has to be legal

Legal in what sense?

 

[powersteer]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

at the end of the day, its the driver, not the car.

the driver (with faster car) 1st has to understand the closure rate his car does on other cars (with possibly inexperienced drivers) and drive in the appropriate manner. Dun complain too much that slower cars hold them up as thats wat a trackday is all about.

TC/SC or not doesnt really matter much as a hooning driver can be more dangerous.

If we judge based on speed difference, are slower cars that does more than 3:00 gonna get banned too? 2:30 vs 3:00 is 30s difference whereas 2:15 vs 2:30 is 15s. What about a slower driver that turns up in a 997 Turbo but doing 2:52 or 3:00?

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

This is always a tough one and can be debatable forever but to make the life easy for the organisers and common interests in general, I'd like to propose the following type of vehicles NOT to be allowed on our private track days :

1. Production based race cars which are NOT road legal eg AMV8 N24, Porsche GT3 Cup
How bout heavily modified Civic Type R that with lightly stripped out interior but road registered? Yes , you can particpate.

2. Open wheeled cars including Ariel Atom, Radicals, Formula cars
Any collision involving these cars and road cars can be fatal due to the massive impact and weight of the road cars.

3. Road cars without electronic aids such as TC/ABS/DSC can particpate.

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

at the end of the day, its the driver, not the car.

the driver (with faster car) 1st has to understand the closure rate his car does on other cars (with possibly inexperienced drivers) and drive in the appropriate manner. Dun complain too much that slower cars hold them up as thats wat a trackday is all about.

TC/SC or not doesnt really matter much as a hooning driver can be more dangerous.

If we judge based on speed difference, are slower cars that does more than 3:00 gonna get banned too? 2:30 vs 3:00 is 30s difference whereas 2:15 vs 2:30 is 15s. What about a slower driver that turns up in a 997 Turbo but doing 2:52 or 3:00?

1. Agree on electronic aids thing

2. Won't be judging on speed differentials as as the end of the day, there is always a big gap between the slowest and the fastest, there's no end to this. We don't have the luxury of time to segregate faster drivers vs slower drivers by designing time slots. The track is big, we can emphasize safety driving. It's always the responsibility of the faster drivers to look out for the slower ones as outlined in our safety briefing.

 

[Racebred]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

There are too many permutations on car type and driver, hence we have broad pointers listed above, which are good enough to work with already. However practically, we'll have to do it on a case by case basis, based on "common sense". The track organisers will reserve the right to decide on what is allowable or not. To avoid last minute confusion, should one have a car that lies in the grey area, best is to confer with us early on. Decisions can also be discussed here, because the BMWSG TDs are for everyone, and everyone has a say in decisions that benefit the majority of us here. Besides, such instances are far and few between, so most of the time it doesnt affect anyone.

We will look at 2 main areas, 1) Red flag problem 2) safety problem, when deciding on what and who are not allowed. sounds fair?

 

[Racebred]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

so, for this coming track day, if there are any "grey area" cars that would need a discussion on, perhaps the owner may want to contact us directly, or through here also can.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Cool how does this sound...

Regarding red flag concerns, these guys can agree beforehand, to pay a hefty fine for every red flag they cause, and on top of that a $ per minute of red flag time. If they cause more than 1 incident and as a result total red flag time they cause exceeds a predetermined number of minutes in a single trackday, they can no longer come back to future trackdays with non road reg cars. And as per normal, if any incident is serious enough, they're just completely banned.

It is also possible to designate passing zones for non road-reg cars. None in corners, none in the large road car brake zones, no diving, no surprises - passing strictly limited to front straight, back straight, and the short chutes between T3 and T4, T8 and T9. Any violation means non road-reg car privilege is withdrawn.

===

Jack, Formula cars and Atoms are open wheel, but Radicals are closed wheel. So Radicals can? 2-11 ?

===

Grey car trying to catch this trackday schedule permitting. If it works out, there will definitely be follow up for final approval. Thanks, cheers

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

It aint gonna be easy to ask for money when it comes to infringements like this so I m not convinced it is a good idea

With regard to passing zones or overtaking, we hv already emphasized that no overtaking is allowed in corners, but only front and back straight.
T3 is safe to overtake so that can be allowed. Short chutes into T4 8 n 9 are just as dangerous for most. I can foresee more drama and arguments back at the pit when accidents happened. One will claim he blocks me n too slow, the other one will say I can't see from my side mirror....

The only clear thing that SIC does is to impose charges on damages done to the turf, barriers or SIC properties in general

Yes meant to say Radicals not open wheeled car these cars are just as vulnerable when it comes to collision impact

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

we hv already emphasized that no overtaking is allowed in corners but only front and back straight.

Leaving the trackcar issue for a while...in all earlier safety briefings it was mentioned just to stay to your side and let passing car make the pass, nothing was ever mentioned about passing on the two main straights only or main straights and T3 only. And there's been passing going on by different drivers in multiple places other than those 2 or 3 designated areas

In the text based club document that was compiled by Shawn, there is a no diving rule mentioned, and a recommendation not to pass in corners, but it does not preclude passing along any of the 4 short chutes or limit to only the 2 main straights. Quotes below...

"Overtaking:
No one must move aside to allow a faster car through. This is to prevent accidents from double car corrections at the same time. If you see a faster car aproaching you, maintain your original intended line. The faster car will find his own way through. The key is to stay predictable, so others can anticipate your movement.

No diving into the inside of the corner to overtake. Actually, we do not encourage overtaking at corners at all. If a collision occurs because of this, the car that comes from behind and dives into the inside corner to overtake will generally be deemed to be at fault."

==

Can the club standardize this rule?

Short chutes into T4 8 n 9 are just as dangerous for most.

Yes just to clarify short chutes between T8 and T9, meaning after T8 and before T9. Never into T8 would be a part of T7 compound corner.

For short chute between T3 and T4, in a typical 2:38 range road car on road tires there's some 4.3 seconds of straight, covering 210 meters even before the very long braking zone. The brake zone functioning as a buffer is another 2.6 seconds and 105 meters long before any deviation from dead straight is made to trail.

I can foresee more drama and arguments back at the pit when accidents happened. One will claim he blocks me n too slow, the other one will say I can't see from my side mirror....

Agree with you it is tricky in any incident. In the end it will have to come down to all parties being cautious and honest. It helps if the drivers are gentlemen and some really are. So later will plead case and hope to be approved

 

[harold996tt]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

T3 is safe to overtake so that can be allowed. Short chutes into T4 8 n 9 are just as dangerous for most. I can foresee more drama and arguments back at the pit when accidents happened. One will claim he blocks me n too slow, the other one will say I can't see from my side mirror....

ahhhhh... T3? There is a certain WRX owner that may not agree about that jacko.... :shock:

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Haha......i know what u meant.

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

ahhhhh... T3? There is a certain WRX owner that may not agree about that jacko.... :shock:

wheres my tshirts? u trying to cheat me? i go blog about u.

 

[Racebred]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

we'll maintain that there'll be no diving inside or outside, into the corner when someone is in front of you, though slower, has already committed into the corner. If a car is remarkably faster than a slower car in front, eg 911 turbo vs 116i, then he can overtake in a predicable manner at any non-turn part of the track. Unless we go metre by metre, it's very hard to put everything down on black and white. We appeal to everyone's mature common sense in their conduct during the track day. An area like turn 10 to 11, quite difficult to overtake, even though it is not strictly a corner, that stretch before 11 is quite hard to safely overtake. And without us explicitly saying so, a mature track driver will see and conclude for himself that it's not an ideal stretch to overtake, and hang back for a while. I believe the regular BMWSG trackkies are already there, in terms of track etiquette. I usually do not see any big problems with the majority of us regulars here. That's why newbies orientation and detailed briefing is important, so that we can all sing to the same tune during the session.

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

yes mate, sounds good
agreed

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

we'll maintain that there'll be no diving inside or outside, into the corner when someone is in front of you, though slower, has already committed into the corner. If a car is remarkably faster than a slower car in front, eg 911 turbo vs 116i, then he can overtake in a predicable manner at any non-turn part of the track........................... That's why newbies orientation and detailed briefing is important, so that we can all sing to the same tune during the session.

nice! glad more's standardized now

 

[harold996tt]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

wheres my tshirts? u trying to cheat me? i go blog about u.

I wear to bed to get it all nice and soft for u first. Haha. I bring to office Monday and u collect lah.