Trackcars / Racecars

[discom]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

I was pointed to this thread by Shaun after I voiced my interest in joining the Oct 22nd TD.

As some of you know, I have bought an Atom as my track car. I have brought it up to track about 10 times and it has done about 2500km at Sepang.

I understand the points that are being put forward and I hope that I can make my case by addressing those points.

For red flags due to frequent break downs by the same car. I agree that is a concern. But I feel that the car should not be prejudged. If a particular individual's car has a history of breaking down, then take him aside, ask for $500 deposit against his car breaking down down and causing a red flag. If his car does not break down, return the deposit. If it does, money forfeited. $500 is just a figure, it could be $50 x the number of paid track day drivers.

As for accidents, the cars do not cause accidents, it is drivers that causes accidents. Would a 20 year old newbie driving a GT2 be safer than a seasoned tracker driving an Atom?

As for fatalities, I am very aware of what i am driving and how it would react in a crash, but it is a risk I choose to take. I can say that I am more aware of cars around me and I never push my car beyond my known limit when there are cars around me. But if I have an empty track, I will slowly push harder so that I can improve. I admit that I have spun out in the ariel a few times in my first few track days with it, but thankfully, it is always when there are no other cars near me.

I can honestly say that I am a better and more confident driver with the Ariel than with my Nissan. And the Ariel has only caused one red flag in 2500km at Sepang, and that was because I spun out, the engine stalled and I discovered I left the car transponder back in the pit...major embarrassment.

Although I am disappointed not to be able to participate in this upcoming TD, I hope that the community will be able to reevaluate this issue for future TDs.

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Discom
Your points are not invalid but as we all know when accidents happen in Sepang, it can be either due to the drivers own mistakes or it can be due to collision with other cars. Let's assume the accident on own impact from parts failure is excluded here. Before I voice out my thought, let me assure you that you are one damn very responsible driver.

Now, one can defend to be very aware of his or her situation in open wheeled cars such as Atom or cars like Radicals. But the reality is , it's not just bout them. Yes, it is his or her own risk. Do we as organisers of private trackday which usually involve the majority of road cars want to witness fatality when in the first place we could potentially avoid that? We have seen road car in our trackday flipped, driver walked out fine. I wish I cud guarantee the same can be said on Atom/Radical type of cars or do we have yet to see one ?

Dont get me wrong, I like to see all sorts of cars on a track day, great to see various makes. But at the end of the day, the track day here is to promote and to encourage newbies to enjoy their cars and to explore their driving skills. And yes , they are yet to be seasoned. They will make mistakes. Do we wanna exclude them altogether coz they are newbies? Answer is No unless we run special invite basis kind of track day.

Also, some may argue bout rates of accidents on track by using statistical inference.
Well, the fact that most accidents involve road cars on the track is simply not a good representation of the cars to be blamed. Ultimately it's the drivers. We know for sure those Atom/Radicals/Formula type of cars are rare to begin with.
The same thing when we hear tonnes of accidents on the road involving taxis and we all have strong negative perception bout taxi drivers but at the same time, there are just as many crap drivers out there in normal passenger cars.

Now back to the drivers.....yes we always emphasize good track ettique on track.
Be assured, they are lots of drivers out there with ego n such . We do know and the majority of regular trakkies know. They drive road cars and here is the thing, we can ban them too ! But at least u know the final payoff remains the same,ie definiltey safer for road cars despite big impact.
So the bottom line is there's a concern on safety issue and we simply can't ignore it.

I m saying this and I know I wont swallow my words if one day I hv such track dedicated machines.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Hi Kenneth, interesting points...

===

Rumour has it that someone is bringing his Radical as a second car, to the 22nd trackday? True or just rumour?

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

It's not a rumour but it's not going to happen. We have informed them. They will run the radical in the afternoon though.

 

[Racebred]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Sometimes lines can be blurred in terms of the cars being brought to the track. For example, a copen is not any different from those stripped down track specials in terms of crash safety or visibility. We have sort of come to a common concensus on the type of cars that we collectively allow for our own track days, but we should also keep the option of case-by-case consideration open because cars come in all shapes and forms, and some of these are actually okay to run alongside the usual road cars that we have.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Hey Jack and Shawn, what's your opinion on say a 2-11?

Closed wheel, near identical in size to Exige, just minus the windscreen. Proper race certified roll hoop, proper doors. It has a traction control system too!

And on top of that.. what if it is drive by an MME veteran (~6 years participation), gentleman driver in his 40s? Safe drivers, nothing to prove.



Please lah.. can lah... tolong! Special case lah!

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Way higher than a Radical or Atom.. much slower than a Radical too

Within 1 sec of Atom laptime.

=====

Can lah! If hoopless S2000 can, surely 2-11 can! Can?

 

[discom]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Hi Jack,

Thanks for your input and clarifications.

I will not push the issue and accept the decision.

I may still go up to the track day with my friend though

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

its still open top la shaun. MME veteren or alex young or fauzi fly also can spin. its not the driver. we cant just suka suka bend rules right?

 

[powersteer]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

does that mean we are banning ALL open top cars?

boxster
carrera GT
911 cab
Z4
all E93s including M3
E46 cab
elise
A5 cab
F California
SLK
SL
Megane CC
Peugoet X0XCC
.
.
.
.
the list goes on

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

its still open top la shaun. MME veteren or alex young or fauzi fly also can spin. its not the driver. we cant just suka suka bend rules right?

I know but the 2-11 has traction control lah Even normal elises and exiges don't have traction control, neither do atoms or radicals . Actually anyone can spin any car. I know guys who have spun full size sedans multiple times with DSC full on.

Safety wise I'm not sure that a 2-11 is any less safe than an Elise.

I'm not even really sure what rule is being bent so far so I thought the process of forming the rule has kind of only just begun officially. No harm discussing it yah? Please lah! Tolong !! Earlier in this thread I think it was Shawn or someone who said it would be on a case by case basis? Can lah!

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

I hv no issue with cars that dont hv traction control. 996 GT3 has no TC but road cars

precurser
The definition of open top is something where u can put the roof on as std feature. Hence in our safety briefing, we dont encourage people to drive with open top

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

there have been all sorts of copens, mx5s, s2ks, running around with top down at TCC for years.. still no incident yet. Not saying that they're right, but in a rollover or crash, the soft top doesn't count for much since it's just fabric just stretched over a few metal strips, or a lightweight shell

 

[powersteer]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

does those hardtop convertibles like Z4 and SLK .. etc count for much in a rollover?

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

dunno.. probably more at least

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Well, it's not just bout rollover .... how bout side impacts? modern cars hv side airbags, those are safety feature , no?
In the event of T-bones between say Radicals vs GTR, which one will get crushed more?

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

for sure radical..
the thing is, many modern cars don't come with side airbags, or tops, or proper roll bars, or fire suppression systems, etc.

As others have mentioned, the red flag issue can very easily be taken care of. The safety issue is really the only contentious issue right now and obviously everyone is looking at it differently with no one able to say for certain what falls under safe and what under unsafe. If we went by official safety ratings, this might be a purely 1.6 ton Volvo trackday hahahh. Also IMO differentiation should be made between drivers.. they're just not all the same experience and safety wise.

But of course, this is all just talk and final say is with the organizers. In the end, all the formula, radical, atom, 2-11 guys might just have to come together and organize their own trackdays. That may actually turn out to be one of the coolest trackdays around! In fact if there are enough of these trackdays, I know a few people who would want to spring for a F2000 car and run some 2:04s

 

[precurser]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Well, it's not just bout rollover .... how bout side impacts? modern cars hv side airbags, those are safety feature , no?
In the event of T-bones between say Radicals vs GTR, which one will get crushed more?

Hi we are looking to bring the Lotus 2-Eleven for this Friday's trackday. It's a car that participated in this year's MME which has a full rollover cage and 5 point harness. In MME the car is racing against not only open top cars but cars of all classes (from civics to GT cars) on one track.

I can safely say that the speed differential between the Lotus and the list of cars here do not vary drastically. The car is lighter but also less powerful.

Anyways each driver will sign an indemnity so I don't understand the issue here.

Can this be an exception?

 

[powersteer]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Radical's spaceframe approved by FIA though

Safety - About - Radical Sportscars
http://www.radicalsportscars.com/uploads/downloads/trc.pdf

GTR wud have needed an extra cage before being allowed to enter.
But for sure the height difference between these 2 cars doesnt look good for the Rad though ... likely to be climbed over

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Hi Jack,

Thanks for your input and clarifications.

I will not push the issue and accept the decision.

I may still go up to the track day with my friend though

ken u steady, respect.

i guess its very difficult for organisers to bend n sway. too many variants to try n justify. dun think its fair to make them explain every single car. whether TC or not. open top, soft top no top etc.

everyone wants an explanation why their cars can or cannot be allowed. its tough as it is organising a TD. lets not make things too difficult for these guys. once an exception is given, some others will come along...soon we will have camels on the track.