Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
- Thread starter michaeltan
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Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
Looks like everything has pretty much been answered except for the run flat tires.
MichaelTan
RFT is for practicality and convenience in the event of flat tires situation. The compound used may or may not be similar to regular tires but the construction isn't and this is where suitability becomes an issue for performance cars. It's hard, heavy and costly too. And worst of all, they typically offer lesser grip.
ELmariachi
SMGIII is official and it's in the current M5 n M6 and quite likely in E90 V8 M3 too.
It's an evolutionary version of SMG II and apparently, its technology is much simpler than SMG II.
And why Z4M doesnt come with SMG II or SMG III ? M3Magic had answered that.
With regards to active steering for M cars...hmm..
The argument is that M cars are the ultimate cars and it's imperative that the drivers get to experience the conventional steering for a real driver involvement feel, hence doing away with Active steering. In fact, if it was fitted standard, it's goin to disappoint M fans. I will be too!
Let me give you another example too that can convince you something with regard to steering technology other than active steering.
The application is in Z4 cars. The cars are equipped with Electric Power Steering as opposed to conventional power steering. For many car enthusiasts esp in Z4 forum, many of the guys there hate it. And guess what, BMW M-division is doing away with that system in the Z4M for a conventional power steering. Great!
The enthusiasm was further heightened when the fans learned that Z4M comes with manual tranny as opposed to SMG system.
So we can clearly see the differences between BMW M and Non-M cars as far as the technology applications are concerned. If u ask me, BMW simply cannot afford to make fundamental mistakes in their M cars. Any mistakes are not only to the disappointment of their hardcore M fans, but also becomes a subject of laugh by their competitors.
Looks like everything has pretty much been answered except for the run flat tires.
MichaelTan
RFT is for practicality and convenience in the event of flat tires situation. The compound used may or may not be similar to regular tires but the construction isn't and this is where suitability becomes an issue for performance cars. It's hard, heavy and costly too. And worst of all, they typically offer lesser grip.
ELmariachi
SMGIII is official and it's in the current M5 n M6 and quite likely in E90 V8 M3 too.
It's an evolutionary version of SMG II and apparently, its technology is much simpler than SMG II.
And why Z4M doesnt come with SMG II or SMG III ? M3Magic had answered that.
With regards to active steering for M cars...hmm..
The argument is that M cars are the ultimate cars and it's imperative that the drivers get to experience the conventional steering for a real driver involvement feel, hence doing away with Active steering. In fact, if it was fitted standard, it's goin to disappoint M fans. I will be too!
Let me give you another example too that can convince you something with regard to steering technology other than active steering.
The application is in Z4 cars. The cars are equipped with Electric Power Steering as opposed to conventional power steering. For many car enthusiasts esp in Z4 forum, many of the guys there hate it. And guess what, BMW M-division is doing away with that system in the Z4M for a conventional power steering. Great!
The enthusiasm was further heightened when the fans learned that Z4M comes with manual tranny as opposed to SMG system.
So we can clearly see the differences between BMW M and Non-M cars as far as the technology applications are concerned. If u ask me, BMW simply cannot afford to make fundamental mistakes in their M cars. Any mistakes are not only to the disappointment of their hardcore M fans, but also becomes a subject of laugh by their competitors.
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
i was thinking the M cars were still on SMGII. my bad. hope the ZSg is a reality anyway.
TripleM said:
i was thinking the M cars were still on SMGII. my bad. hope the ZSg is a reality anyway.
michaeltan
Banned.
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
TripleM, your post crystallizes all the dichotomy has been going on between M and BMW Passenger Cars division.
I wrote the starting post not so much as a question, but to provoke further discussion on this dichotomy.
I drove a 530i with active steering on its launch. I nearly crashed it near PIE exit to Clementi (the exit on the right). It was a combination of factors, with the sales guy giving me abrubt instructions, but more so with the slowdown to exit from high speed, turning right caused the planetary steering gearbox to amplify my steering feed, causing the rear to almost switch to the front. I believe that without the integration of DSC and AS, I would have crashed and possibly overturned. That is the unpredictability of AS in a highway situation. I requested to indent one without AS. They said I can buy the Asian Aerospace 520 without AS - that was the only way. I did not want a 520, so that's that. I cannot imagine myself driving a car which steering is utterly non-linear and unpredictable. I know that in time I will `learn' the idiosyncracies of AS, but .... why MUST I learn? i don't need AS for parking, that's dumb. I don't need AS for anything whatsoever. If I need babysitting tools, I'll buy a Mercedes E Class, with Airmatic DC, Sensotronic brakes, etc. Much more useful babysitting tools too!
BMW is doing the same thing as some enthusiasts `wrongly' want. They want BMW to approximate Mercedes. I must say that, in order to get the real experience of BMW, you may need to get an M-car soon. And because of all the mucking around of BMW trying to approximate Mercedes, their cars have grown heavier, messier, more and more complex, buggier, etc.
In this world today, public perception aside, Lexus has overtaken Mercedes in EVERY aspect save public perception, and Lexus is working on the `passion' part to finally kill off Mercedes. Now Lexus is targeting BMW. This started 4 years ago, after they realised that their LS430 and SC430, better than Merc in every way, was their pinnacle of achievement in their technical approximation of Mercedes. They realised that Merc was the WRONG target, and now gone after BMW.
Lexus' problem is that they do not have the ultimate philosophy in making the world's `ultimate driving machine'. Their ultimate philosophy has been refinement. In making the new GS and IS, they made the `world's ultimate refined sports sedans' which obviously sacrificed a bit on the driving part. Toyota is depending on their technology and manufacturing prowess to make the `world's ultimate refined sports sedan' drive better than the Ultimate Driving Machine. Not this generation though. But they have the cash to make it possible? Most probably.
Until then, BMW must maintain their focus on making the ultimate driving machine. Don't try to approximate Mercedes anymore, don't shadow Merc in terms of space etc. The window is closing and the borg jaggernaut Toyota is coming. If BMW focusses on their UDM philosophy, there is still definitely a chance of survival in spite of the dreadful economic, social and employment situation in their home country.
It'll be a boring world with just Toyotas.
TripleM, your post crystallizes all the dichotomy has been going on between M and BMW Passenger Cars division.
I wrote the starting post not so much as a question, but to provoke further discussion on this dichotomy.
I drove a 530i with active steering on its launch. I nearly crashed it near PIE exit to Clementi (the exit on the right). It was a combination of factors, with the sales guy giving me abrubt instructions, but more so with the slowdown to exit from high speed, turning right caused the planetary steering gearbox to amplify my steering feed, causing the rear to almost switch to the front. I believe that without the integration of DSC and AS, I would have crashed and possibly overturned. That is the unpredictability of AS in a highway situation. I requested to indent one without AS. They said I can buy the Asian Aerospace 520 without AS - that was the only way. I did not want a 520, so that's that. I cannot imagine myself driving a car which steering is utterly non-linear and unpredictable. I know that in time I will `learn' the idiosyncracies of AS, but .... why MUST I learn? i don't need AS for parking, that's dumb. I don't need AS for anything whatsoever. If I need babysitting tools, I'll buy a Mercedes E Class, with Airmatic DC, Sensotronic brakes, etc. Much more useful babysitting tools too!
BMW is doing the same thing as some enthusiasts `wrongly' want. They want BMW to approximate Mercedes. I must say that, in order to get the real experience of BMW, you may need to get an M-car soon. And because of all the mucking around of BMW trying to approximate Mercedes, their cars have grown heavier, messier, more and more complex, buggier, etc.
In this world today, public perception aside, Lexus has overtaken Mercedes in EVERY aspect save public perception, and Lexus is working on the `passion' part to finally kill off Mercedes. Now Lexus is targeting BMW. This started 4 years ago, after they realised that their LS430 and SC430, better than Merc in every way, was their pinnacle of achievement in their technical approximation of Mercedes. They realised that Merc was the WRONG target, and now gone after BMW.
Lexus' problem is that they do not have the ultimate philosophy in making the world's `ultimate driving machine'. Their ultimate philosophy has been refinement. In making the new GS and IS, they made the `world's ultimate refined sports sedans' which obviously sacrificed a bit on the driving part. Toyota is depending on their technology and manufacturing prowess to make the `world's ultimate refined sports sedan' drive better than the Ultimate Driving Machine. Not this generation though. But they have the cash to make it possible? Most probably.
Until then, BMW must maintain their focus on making the ultimate driving machine. Don't try to approximate Mercedes anymore, don't shadow Merc in terms of space etc. The window is closing and the borg jaggernaut Toyota is coming. If BMW focusses on their UDM philosophy, there is still definitely a chance of survival in spite of the dreadful economic, social and employment situation in their home country.
It'll be a boring world with just Toyotas.
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
it is just PML because they refuse to indent 5-series without AS. if you can get them to special indent one for you, you can specify if you want AS or DD or anything else on the option list. the problem is... PML
it is just PML because they refuse to indent 5-series without AS. if you can get them to special indent one for you, you can specify if you want AS or DD or anything else on the option list. the problem is... PML
michaeltan
Banned.
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
This is CONFIRMED. BMW is very proud of this capability.
yes, you are right. BMW factory quoted me that I can get anything I want, and even 10 days before production, I can change my specification and they will accept.bmwF1 said:
This is CONFIRMED. BMW is very proud of this capability.
althaus
Well-Known Member
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
Hmm, but again you yourself forgot that different people buy cars for different reasons. To some, style is the most important, and to others perhaps comfort is important. But to most Bimmer owners, the fun-to-drive factor is the most important.
michaeltan said:
Hmm, but again you yourself forgot that different people buy cars for different reasons. To some, style is the most important, and to others perhaps comfort is important. But to most Bimmer owners, the fun-to-drive factor is the most important.
michaeltan
Banned.
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
QED. (10characters )althaus said:
michaeltan
Banned.
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
QED. ( 10characters )althaus said:
michaeltan
Banned.
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
the greatness of a 523 without AS and DD is supplanted by a detuned I6 2.5L engine, honestly. But good that it does not have AS and DD though, IMHO. DD I don't mind. But AS ....kopi_o said:
zag
Well-Known Member
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
... ask any e60 owners who has AS (in e60.net) you will get the ulitmate answer!
And no.. AS is not for parking ease only! Handed my key to a friend who drove an e39 525i, the first instance he noticed was the AS during a quick lane change at speed! Wow, he exclaimed!
in PML context, taking off AS from the list of equipment options on entry models will give them better competitive pricing margin. It is all in the bottom line.. The early batch of 520i were equipped with AS but no PDC and later no AS but with PDC and so on. So it is PML marketing strategy . During the Sepang launch on e60 less than 3 years ago.. the feature of the day was Active steering and Dynamic Drive where one did high speed slalom on e60s equipped with them. I walked away wanting dynamic drive so badly almost redo the booking to add the option. Good thing i didn't.. the car delivered came with it free of charge!
530i comes with AS as standard, DD is option; 545i/550i is full option AS; DD and sport suspension.
... ask any e60 owners who has AS (in e60.net) you will get the ulitmate answer!
And no.. AS is not for parking ease only! Handed my key to a friend who drove an e39 525i, the first instance he noticed was the AS during a quick lane change at speed! Wow, he exclaimed!
in PML context, taking off AS from the list of equipment options on entry models will give them better competitive pricing margin. It is all in the bottom line.. The early batch of 520i were equipped with AS but no PDC and later no AS but with PDC and so on. So it is PML marketing strategy . During the Sepang launch on e60 less than 3 years ago.. the feature of the day was Active steering and Dynamic Drive where one did high speed slalom on e60s equipped with them. I walked away wanting dynamic drive so badly almost redo the booking to add the option. Good thing i didn't.. the car delivered came with it free of charge!
530i comes with AS as standard, DD is option; 545i/550i is full option AS; DD and sport suspension.
axl
Well-Known Member
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
Hi Michael.. enjoy reading your posts and your contributions.
But I must point out that the SC430 is a joke of a car... it's neither here nor there, and maybe only good for straight line speed, and the handling's like a wallowing bumboat!
So I absolutely dunt agree that it's better than the eqv MB (CLK cab/SLK) in every (=any??) way . Maybe LS430 > S350, but then again there's the heritage factor to consider for some pp's purchasing decisions.
Cheers!
PS: The new V10 spiritual successor to the Supra... LF-A gonna be badged a Lexus and now that's really smtg to set the pulses running...
michaeltan said:
Hi Michael.. enjoy reading your posts and your contributions.
But I must point out that the SC430 is a joke of a car... it's neither here nor there, and maybe only good for straight line speed, and the handling's like a wallowing bumboat!
So I absolutely dunt agree that it's better than the eqv MB (CLK cab/SLK) in every (=any??) way . Maybe LS430 > S350, but then again there's the heritage factor to consider for some pp's purchasing decisions.
Cheers!
PS: The new V10 spiritual successor to the Supra... LF-A gonna be badged a Lexus and now that's really smtg to set the pulses running...
althaus
Well-Known Member
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
Actually I don't agree that Lexus have overtaken Mercedes. Trying out the old C-Class and the new IS, I find the old C Class to be more comfortable in the ride. Lexus seems to be not here nor there.... Dun like the new LS, and I think the new S-Class totally kills off the new LS even before its delivered based on looks alone, as for technology there's nothing else to say, Lexus is totally beaten.
The problem with Lexus is the lack of innovation. They are always a step behind Mercedes, BMW and Audi. Why?
1) They launched diesel engines late in Europe
2) ABC, DTC and all those control systems, the Teutons have it first. Any innovations that Lexus originally created? None.
3) Design wise, they are also a bit too restrained until recently.... but still loses to BMW.
4) Yes they launched hybrids, but rivals are using fuel cells and hydrogen (both of which are more advanced).
5) Ineffective marketing, does not manage to get people to be passionate over their cars.
To me, the more impressive automobile company Japan has gotta be Honda. They are far more innovative.
michaeltan said:
Actually I don't agree that Lexus have overtaken Mercedes. Trying out the old C-Class and the new IS, I find the old C Class to be more comfortable in the ride. Lexus seems to be not here nor there.... Dun like the new LS, and I think the new S-Class totally kills off the new LS even before its delivered based on looks alone, as for technology there's nothing else to say, Lexus is totally beaten.
The problem with Lexus is the lack of innovation. They are always a step behind Mercedes, BMW and Audi. Why?
1) They launched diesel engines late in Europe
2) ABC, DTC and all those control systems, the Teutons have it first. Any innovations that Lexus originally created? None.
3) Design wise, they are also a bit too restrained until recently.... but still loses to BMW.
4) Yes they launched hybrids, but rivals are using fuel cells and hydrogen (both of which are more advanced).
5) Ineffective marketing, does not manage to get people to be passionate over their cars.
To me, the more impressive automobile company Japan has gotta be Honda. They are far more innovative.
michaeltan
Banned.
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
AXL - thanks for the nice words. Yes, Lexus lacks the passion part. And yes, the SC430 kills off the Merc old SL in every way, but Merc has moved on with the new SL .... and the LS430 is a mistake. But these 2 cars were the technical masterpieces to beat the Merc `refinement' and `complex car' and `features leader' myth. And the new L-finesse styling seems to work wonders with the English and American automotive journos, so they seem to be on the right track for the design part. And the LF-A concept will be part of the solution to address the passion part.
Althaus - I assure you that the C-Class, both the original model and the facelift model with the wider track and improved suspension geometry, is inferior to the IS chassis. Lexus has standard suspension settings THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, so the British reviews are not applicable here with regard to suspension. The IS settings are better for Singapore roads compared to the C-Class. I have driven C-Classes for 5 years now, not only my own, but friends' ones too. The Standard suspension setting for the W203 is the best for Singapore roads, but still only slightly behind the IS. The Elegance Sports Suspension (few units in Singapore) and Avantgarde settings ABSOLUTELY suck. My wife has remarked for the Eleg. Sp sus. - `Rides like a jeep' and he ain't far wrong. On 15 inch tyres, it's slightly worse ride than the IS, but on 16, gets worse. A 17" W203 is a hell, trust me, not to mention 18s and 19s.
Lexus reliability is LEGEND. With EVERY car I bought before, be it a Honda or a Mercedes, I had to spend the 1st 2 months debugging the car and in and out of the dealers'. But for a new Lexus GS I just bought, I was AMAZED I did not need to touch the dealer AT ALL. Same for some of my friends. No issues. No debugging.
So, to beat a car, don't forget the reliability factor, and the satisfaction factor in the first year. The LS460 isn't even finalized. Technology wise, it sports the only worthy thing which is really of note - a 8-speed Auto Transmission. The new S-class (don't forget I'm a merc fan) has what new of note which a normal S-Class user who buys a S350 can buy? ABC II? HUD? full LCD configurable dashboard display??? All these, really, bo liao type of additions. Yes, they built in quality into the new S-Class, which is something Lexus has built in since the LS400.
It really seems to me that Lexus has replicated all that is Mercedes save the passion part (lol, the passion part is basically what Mercedes has remaining now actually) and Lex vs Merc is not worth considering now. It's Lex vs BMW now, really.
Diesels - true, but depends on priority. Toyota's biggest market is USA, a diesel adverse country. So Toyota concentrated on petrol engines. Wheras Mercedes may prioritize Europe. In any case, their new diesel for the IS220D is a great one. Wanna compare this engine against the E220CDI engine of our cabs??? LOL. Honda took the same route as Toyota, and when they entered the diesel fray, their engines were great, better than anyone elses' save BMW perhaps. In fact they are comparable to BMW's engines. Anyway, diesels are irrelevant in the Singapore context, even though I love them, see http://forums.hardwarezone.com/showthread.php?p=17539628
Design wise - let anybody who wants to say and substantiate that the E90 is nicer than the new Lexus IS, stand up and be counted. LOL. A really plain car, the E90. Not even mentioning flame surfacing .... just look at the car.
Hybrids vs Hydrogen and FC - all are IMHO BS, but at least Hybrids are in production and selling substantially well in USA, and really giving Toyota and Honda a good name, so much so that GM, Daimlerchrysler and BMW are trying to catch up. Fuel cell technology - mostly german industry efforts for the fundamental technology, and the car manufacturer offers integration help. Not really much fundamental input from Daimlerchrysler, who is leading the fuel cell effort, and BMW, who is leading the Hydrogen effort. See http://forum.carma.com.sg/showthread.php?t=1228964 for a fledgling discussion on the subject, veering to a better discussion on CNG as an alternate fuel. Fuel cell is 5-10 years off, hydrogen is .... space age - if you look from the perspective of real life motoring.
Marketing etc... aiya, I not interested in this marketing stuff lar.... if I was susceptible to this marketing stuff, I'd have paid tens of thousands of dollars more (60-70K SGD more) to buy a 530 instead of a GS.
I love Honda. Just that Toyota executes well, thinks longer term. As I grow older that is more impressive. And really, it's far more difficult to execute long term than to market well and make nice engines.
AXL - thanks for the nice words. Yes, Lexus lacks the passion part. And yes, the SC430 kills off the Merc old SL in every way, but Merc has moved on with the new SL .... and the LS430 is a mistake. But these 2 cars were the technical masterpieces to beat the Merc `refinement' and `complex car' and `features leader' myth. And the new L-finesse styling seems to work wonders with the English and American automotive journos, so they seem to be on the right track for the design part. And the LF-A concept will be part of the solution to address the passion part.
Althaus - I assure you that the C-Class, both the original model and the facelift model with the wider track and improved suspension geometry, is inferior to the IS chassis. Lexus has standard suspension settings THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, so the British reviews are not applicable here with regard to suspension. The IS settings are better for Singapore roads compared to the C-Class. I have driven C-Classes for 5 years now, not only my own, but friends' ones too. The Standard suspension setting for the W203 is the best for Singapore roads, but still only slightly behind the IS. The Elegance Sports Suspension (few units in Singapore) and Avantgarde settings ABSOLUTELY suck. My wife has remarked for the Eleg. Sp sus. - `Rides like a jeep' and he ain't far wrong. On 15 inch tyres, it's slightly worse ride than the IS, but on 16, gets worse. A 17" W203 is a hell, trust me, not to mention 18s and 19s.
Lexus reliability is LEGEND. With EVERY car I bought before, be it a Honda or a Mercedes, I had to spend the 1st 2 months debugging the car and in and out of the dealers'. But for a new Lexus GS I just bought, I was AMAZED I did not need to touch the dealer AT ALL. Same for some of my friends. No issues. No debugging.
So, to beat a car, don't forget the reliability factor, and the satisfaction factor in the first year. The LS460 isn't even finalized. Technology wise, it sports the only worthy thing which is really of note - a 8-speed Auto Transmission. The new S-class (don't forget I'm a merc fan) has what new of note which a normal S-Class user who buys a S350 can buy? ABC II? HUD? full LCD configurable dashboard display??? All these, really, bo liao type of additions. Yes, they built in quality into the new S-Class, which is something Lexus has built in since the LS400.
It really seems to me that Lexus has replicated all that is Mercedes save the passion part (lol, the passion part is basically what Mercedes has remaining now actually) and Lex vs Merc is not worth considering now. It's Lex vs BMW now, really.
Diesels - true, but depends on priority. Toyota's biggest market is USA, a diesel adverse country. So Toyota concentrated on petrol engines. Wheras Mercedes may prioritize Europe. In any case, their new diesel for the IS220D is a great one. Wanna compare this engine against the E220CDI engine of our cabs??? LOL. Honda took the same route as Toyota, and when they entered the diesel fray, their engines were great, better than anyone elses' save BMW perhaps. In fact they are comparable to BMW's engines. Anyway, diesels are irrelevant in the Singapore context, even though I love them, see http://forums.hardwarezone.com/showthread.php?p=17539628
Design wise - let anybody who wants to say and substantiate that the E90 is nicer than the new Lexus IS, stand up and be counted. LOL. A really plain car, the E90. Not even mentioning flame surfacing .... just look at the car.
Hybrids vs Hydrogen and FC - all are IMHO BS, but at least Hybrids are in production and selling substantially well in USA, and really giving Toyota and Honda a good name, so much so that GM, Daimlerchrysler and BMW are trying to catch up. Fuel cell technology - mostly german industry efforts for the fundamental technology, and the car manufacturer offers integration help. Not really much fundamental input from Daimlerchrysler, who is leading the fuel cell effort, and BMW, who is leading the Hydrogen effort. See http://forum.carma.com.sg/showthread.php?t=1228964 for a fledgling discussion on the subject, veering to a better discussion on CNG as an alternate fuel. Fuel cell is 5-10 years off, hydrogen is .... space age - if you look from the perspective of real life motoring.
Marketing etc... aiya, I not interested in this marketing stuff lar.... if I was susceptible to this marketing stuff, I'd have paid tens of thousands of dollars more (60-70K SGD more) to buy a 530 instead of a GS.
I love Honda. Just that Toyota executes well, thinks longer term. As I grow older that is more impressive. And really, it's far more difficult to execute long term than to market well and make nice engines.
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
individual preferences aside, the market generally dictates how cars marketed for commercial reasons.
a bit of a generalization, but its easy to find two distinct groups split between the 2 camps. I'll put my neck on the line and say that lexus and mercedes buyers belong in one camp and vag group and bmw buyers belong to another.
i generally find more enthusiasts in the latter camp.
individual preferences aside, the market generally dictates how cars marketed for commercial reasons.
a bit of a generalization, but its easy to find two distinct groups split between the 2 camps. I'll put my neck on the line and say that lexus and mercedes buyers belong in one camp and vag group and bmw buyers belong to another.
i generally find more enthusiasts in the latter camp.
michaeltan
Banned.
Re: Why do M-Cars not include the most hyped BMW technologies?
I think your generalization is fair for now. Lexus has just started on its dynamics war with BMW after finishing its dynamics war with Mercedes, and I guess it will take 3 years for perceptions to change. The impending launch of the LF-A supercar is just one of the things this Japanese jaggernaut is taking.
Even the launch of the GS and especially the IS, is taking a lot of buyers from BMW in this country. The Lexus-BMW overlap is starting, I think.
In BMW's favour, I do not agree that VAG and BMW buyers should belong in a group. I find VAG buyers, especially Audi A4, A6, VW Golf (non-GTI) buyers to be rather in the same eccentric group as Volvo, Saab buyers. They are really a different group of cultists.
oomph said:
I think your generalization is fair for now. Lexus has just started on its dynamics war with BMW after finishing its dynamics war with Mercedes, and I guess it will take 3 years for perceptions to change. The impending launch of the LF-A supercar is just one of the things this Japanese jaggernaut is taking.
Even the launch of the GS and especially the IS, is taking a lot of buyers from BMW in this country. The Lexus-BMW overlap is starting, I think.
In BMW's favour, I do not agree that VAG and BMW buyers should belong in a group. I find VAG buyers, especially Audi A4, A6, VW Golf (non-GTI) buyers to be rather in the same eccentric group as Volvo, Saab buyers. They are really a different group of cultists.
