X3 Audio Set up

[henry2703]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

Henry,

Yes. I am still driving my E90. Seriously, I believe u have to try the balance as your system is a passive setup. Unless you have a HU capable of doing Time Alignment, you are probably out of luck. Look at it this way, u or ur wife will be listening to the music only when u r driving alone. When u have passengers, u r going to have to lower the volume anyway as u will most likely be chatting away.

Hey Melvin,

You got a point in the second part Can't argue with that.

I explored the Time Alignment thing. I don't think it will work. The Time Alignment mechanism basically plays around with the delay on the delivery of the sound on each channel. May not help in my situation.

I'm gonna bring it down to HG and see if those guys can do something about it...

you have to listen to it to know how bad it is...

 

[henry2703]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

hi! henry,

if the tweeters bypass the crossovers, and are connected directly to the head unit, the tweeters will be playing "full range". not recommended.

for passive, only tone (treble/bass), fader and what bro avatar mentioned, balance can be manipulated.

actually, initially, i would like to suggest an auto-tune dsp but not many ice shops promote this particular device, and is out of your mentioned budget. also, auto-tune dsps are not popular with "ice purists & ice tuners". have you heard a bimmer with the premium factory fitted logic 7 system? this auto-tune device lets you achieve almost as close as that in music enjoyment. check out harman - MS-8 it uses the logic 7 hardware but software loaded is a little different. i am not related to this brand or any ice shops, just sharing an alternative.

good luck in your ice quest!

Hi Zeee,

I did not see how the tweeters are connected. But if the installer made such a simple mistake (as in by passing the crossover and connect it directly to the amp) i would be very angry! ha ha... i don't think that is the case.

I have heard about the various DSP that can help centralized the sound staging. Yep, it is more money that i am willing to spend.

I will just have to fully exhaust all possibilities before i dip into the piggy bank again...

Now i just wish i never did it in the first place

 

[zeee]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

Hi Zeee,

I did not see how the tweeters are connected. But if the installer made such a simple mistake (as in by passing the crossover and connect it directly to the amp) i would be very angry! ha ha... i don't think that is the case.

I have heard about the various DSP that can help centralized the sound staging. Yep, it is more money that i am willing to spend.

I will just have to fully exhaust all possibilities before i dip into the piggy bank again...

Now i just wish i never did it in the first place

what i meant was if you "remove the cross over", the tweeter would be playing full range (e.g. if the audio signal is direct from the head unit). sorry for the confusion.

ice is another mod poison that is "bottomless pit"...

 

[oneHeadlight]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

Time alignment will not solve the problem.

There wasn't any mention on a couple of things, so i might just try suggesting to you.

1. Disconnect the rear speakers. Could be cancellation happening somewhere.
2. is it possible to adjust the crossover setting ? altho u are running passive, and altho its unlikely an entry level RAinbow will have that.

I am more inclined to say that unless u spend some money, u are unlikely to resolve the issue. I believe its the quality of the RAinbow speakers, which are typically bright. I am pretty sure its the crossover.

and might irritate u to say this.... u sit closer to a speaker, its going to sound louder.

 

[oneHeadlight]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

or u can try this...

go to the installer, reposition the tweeter to off-axis.

 

[avatar]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

Oops...sorry. Wrong advice. Yeah...like what u guys mention, TA will not solve the issue. I thought it was a sound stage issue.

 

[henry2703]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

I don't believe in spending more money to cure the problem. At least not yet.

I have done up a few ICE before, and never came across a problem like this. Given that the sitting position is slightly different in a SUV vs a Sedan, It isn't really that much of a problem. And since i usually get it right in a sedan, i don't see how the problem should be so bad in the X3 that i should jsut accept it.

Yes, I am contemplating removing the cross over altogether. I think that might solve the problem. I am also torn between doing that now, or let the speakers run in a bit more.

Removing the rear speakers makes it worst. Tried that. At least now, the rear output is helping to space out the sound a little, so that it doesn't reach the point of irritating.

I can't reposition the tweeters as well. The tweeter was installed at the plastic triangle at the inside of the wing mirror. I wouldn't know what to do with the hole if the tweetersare removed. I spoke to the installer before it was done though, about how human ears are more sensitive to sharper sound, and the possibility of putting the tweeter else where. He told me that yah, people can try to "deflect" the sound away, but it doesn't help much...

 

[henry2703]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

and might irritate u to say this.... u sit closer to a speaker, its going to sound louder.

Hi Headlight,

you are absolutely right with the above statement... hahahha...

let me also point out to you. If you seat in a cinema, say ont he right side coz you got your ticket last. you will hear the right side louder as well, its the same theory.

But, it will never be till that stage where you actually find it so pronounced that, you feel like only the right side speakers are working... And that is a good balance.

And to share with you, I have only 25% hearing on my right ear, and i already feel it really bad. Can you imagine, my passenger with 100% hearing, how bad it would be on their left side?

I also understand that to have a good system, we need to have a deep pocket. This is fact of the matter.

I wasn't looking for a THX certified home theater system in the car. I was only looking for an improvement over the stock speakers. The stock speakers were balance, so if i improve the quality of the output, it doesn't make sense whether i spend $1 dollar or $1 million, the sound shouldn't be off balance. And that is what i am not happy with. I wasn't even commenting on the Quality of the Output.

 

[oneHeadlight]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

u can take out the tweets.... try different positioning first. NOt suggesting u change it immediately. Its more of a testing.
I am speculating on the exact problem u are facing because it does seem alittle confusing. As an old bird used to say, its science, not magic.

u are definitely more discerning than you think. But you are right about running in first. It might help but rainbow entry level stuff are notorious for being bright, hence i suggest you try positioning it off-axis.

thats all assuming the installation is proper. NOt seeing any wires and what nots...those are pretty Duh to be honest.

i read this thread late, and in all honesty, you took the right path so to speak (since u dun wanna touch the headunit), changing to component speakers is the best. I am NOT suggesting removing the crossover, i am suggesting the crossover point that came with your crossover is probably too high.

something i forgot to ask as well... your component set is tweets and a 4" ?

 

[henry2703]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

Hey Headlight,

Yep, the component is a pair of tweets and 4", not the best option, but i rather not cut anything in the car. So i have to live with it.

Well, i mean besides, "not seeing the wires", i am also assuming that the installation is okay because Soundwerks has a good reputation in this forum. Couple with the fact that, not wiring it up in a way that the sound will cancel out each other is really elementary. hardly anyone makes such mistakes even for beginners. I also don't think the signals are cancelling out each other, that would have been very obvious.

I think you got it spot on. The tweets are very bright... and as mentioned, humans picks up sharp sound clearer and more directional, and hence the problem



Can i just check.

1) What car do you drive?
2) where are the position of your speakers and tweets
3) are you hearing it a lot louder from one side then the others?

In my previous rides, while the sitting position is not the same, Sedan usually sits a bit lower.... but the speakers and tweets are roughly in the same position, I never had that issue.... I am wondering if it is a X3 issue or what...

 

[oneHeadlight]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

(1) 3 series
(2) tweets are on A pillar, midbass at the door. I have time alignment etc.
(3) No. because i have staging etc.

Dude... nothing personal, but if i may narrow down, its one of these 3

1. crossover point
2. off axis/on axis positioning of the tweets
3. gain adjustment, the amplification.

what u are facing, if i gather correctly.... is both brightness and EXTREME imbalance.
go down to hong guan.... have them check your amp and speakers connection.
then do as suggested...i think.

 

[henry2703]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

(1) 3 series
(2) tweets are on A pillar, midbass at the door. I have time alignment etc.
(3) No. because i have staging etc.

Dude... nothing personal, but if i may narrow down, its one of these 3

1. crossover point
2. off axis/on axis positioning of the tweets
3. gain adjustment, the amplification.

what u are facing, if i gather correctly.... is both brightness and EXTREME imbalance.
go down to hong guan.... have them check your amp and speakers connection.
then do as suggested...i think.

Hey Dude,

don't worry man, i don't take these things personal... haha haha... if you notice, i haven't even started complaining about anyone. By not accepting things the way they are doesn't mean i am taking things personal... its just that i am not exactly a newbie in this hobby, so i know things should be that way.

a few more questions, if you (or any one) don't mind sharing with me

1) The set up of your car is very similiar with the X3. and i know that for a fact, because i traded in my E90 for the E83.

I presumed the time alignment helps with the sound staging? is that able to stage the sound to the middle part of the dash board? I presumed you don't have a center speaker as well? What do you use for the Time alignment, and mind sharing the cost?

Yesterday, instead of the usual HQCD that i usually play, i decided to plug in my Iphone, which means crap source. The problem of extremely bright and off center sounds was better... But i also adjusted the back speakers a bit louder... that probably helps balance off the sound as well...

So i am at a lost again! Ha ha Ha

I'll probably pop down to HG and swap out the back speakers and while at it, get that guy to check out the whole thing once and for all.... before i give up

 

[oneHeadlight]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

Don't think you are a newbie at all. Like i said, you are certainly discerning enough, but maybe not at the higher spectrum of things.
dun even know what category to put u into.. u know time alignment but u dunno wat it does. A newbie question but u are not a newbie hahah....if its any important.

I used a high end after market headunit. I would'nt say what because i dun wanna reveal my identity amongst the installers. THat way, i can remain objective.

time alignment, if tuned well enough, presents the music as if the artiste is performing on a stage right infront of u. It doesnt do magic, and its alittle selfish because u have to align to a selected position, ie driver or passenger/rear passengers. It will help you in terms of the extreme imbalance you are facing. BUt it wun help the other stuff, which is more SQ than anything.

and with such limited hardware, u have to be aware that when u listen to radio, ipod and CD.... its different. I need to set different memories for my radio etc.

bearing in mind also, you are seriously lacking on the lower freq, and your installation is very entry level. A rainbow 4 incher aint capable of playing anything low that efficiently.

You should check how the speakers are connected to the amp, and adjust the gain or connect them differently. I really cannot say anything because i dunno how its connected.

You should also remove the tweets from the door and place it off axis, ie dun face u directly. It WILL help. use blutack and stick on the dashboard. or on the A pillar...just try it.

 

[henry2703]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

Don't think you are a newbie at all. Like i said, you are certainly discerning enough, but maybe not at the higher spectrum of things.
dun even know what category to put u into.. u know time alignment but u dunno wat it does. A newbie question but u are not a newbie hahah....if its any important.

I used a high end after market headunit. I would'nt say what because i dun wanna reveal my identity amongst the installers. THat way, i can remain objective.

time alignment, if tuned well enough, presents the music as if the artiste is performing on a stage right infront of u. It doesnt do magic, and its alittle selfish because u have to align to a selected position, ie driver or passenger/rear passengers. It will help you in terms of the extreme imbalance you are facing. BUt it wun help the other stuff, which is more SQ than anything.

and with such limited hardware, u have to be aware that when u listen to radio, ipod and CD.... its different. I need to set different memories for my radio etc.

bearing in mind also, you are seriously lacking on the lower freq, and your installation is very entry level. A rainbow 4 incher aint capable of playing anything low that efficiently.

You should check how the speakers are connected to the amp, and adjust the gain or connect them differently. I really cannot say anything because i dunno how its connected.

You should also remove the tweets from the door and place it off axis, ie dun face u directly. It WILL help. use blutack and stick on the dashboard. or on the A pillar...just try it.

Okay, thanks dude, yep.. The time alignment is same as what i understand it to be... Well, in my younger days, i used to invest pretty heavily in to Hi Fi stuffs, but mainly for home.

I had an accident, and lost part of my hearing, so i figured out it was a good time to get out of this hobby, since i can't really enjoy it that much anymore... I still have some of my equipment at home, but mainly for casual music these days... Running a small little digital amp and a set of ancient Mission speakers.

Thanks for your info... appreciate all your wise words.

I will probably put in a few more dollars to swap out the 6.5" and the 4" at the back... but let the existing stuff run in first.. Will probably go to a different installer, so that i can have another pair of eyes and hands to look at the set up now.

I have to admit i don't know much about ICE. Its really a different ball game from Home Audio.

 

[oneHeadlight]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

home audio is a different animal.... so much more costly !!

anyway, the rear speakers is a controversial subject, but imho, its not necessary in a situation which u dun wish to spend too much.

have fun.

 

[relag]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

Hmm... Let me come in a chip in my 2cents worth...

Like some of the bro mentioned here, you're not getting a balance sound because you're a passive setup and do not have any sound processor to do any form of tuning. Furthermore in the car environment, we are sitting in a less ideal place for music ie sitting at the right side of the car, not as spacious as home, very close to the tweeters, sound reflection from windscreen and all the odd shape within the car etc... All these effects are less than ideal for sound frequencies to travel and have the proper TONAL ACCURACY, STAGING and AMBIENCE. For home audio, the listener can choose to sit in the centre of 2 speakers to enjoy music but not in the car environment. Using the balance function to fade the sound to one side does not solve any of the issue as mentioned earlier.

Hence a processor is needed to tune all these short-comings to get it "right" for the driver, be it you are in passive or active setup. However the processor is not everything as you need a good tuner to achieve that. A combination of using time-alignment (or time delay), cross-over, EQ functions to achieve tonal accuracy, well staged sound. Getting a good ambience effect will usually need more high-end equipment to achieve.

My car is in passive setup and was tuned with a processor in order to achieve a well-blanced sound. Hence do ask yourself what you want to achieve? If you do not want to spend money on processor or a HU with processor function, I can tell you most of the time you can never achieve good balance sound at all. Hence the "raw" sound will very much depend the characteristic of the speakers already. Rainbow is famous for its bright sound and that why you are feeling it now. A processor is a MUST if you want to "tame" the speakers down.

My 2cents worth of comments.

 

[oneHeadlight]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

i believe he already knew all these theories.

 

[relag]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

i believe he already knew all these theories.

haha, sorry for being extra then...

 

[henry2703]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

ha ha.. nothing is extra...

every bit of opinion is well appreciated!

Thanks guys...

Its just that i cannot believe that after spending some money (not a lot though), it sound worst than before... if you know what i mean..

i would rather have a muffled sound that is rather balance left vs right, versus a sharp sound with slightly better quality but the left and right is imbalance...

 

[pengful]

Re: X3 Audio Set up

My neutral opinion is that the Rainbows are probably the cause of your discomfort. They are bright by construction and some bros have already mentioned it.