Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

[*.*]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

2) If I were to buy a performance biased vehicle, performance is important to me, and if there were a choice between 2 equal performance vehicles, one with better pedestrian safety rating and the other inferior, it would be the one which has a better pedestrian safety rating.

Initially I started this thread as a academic discussion thread. As i did more research, I actually FELT for pedestrian safety when I thought about my boy.

Forgive me, but I really have an irrational love for my boy.

Tan. Did your GS300 got recalled from BM for safety belt flaw? Maybe you should go focus on that too. Check soon in case you get stuck in your car seat when you crashed your car.

By the way, who is the boy you are talking about that you got irrational love for? Some strange relationship? Did u knock down your boy or something? Did you have the strange relationship and knock your boy down before? The boy really make you so obsess with pedestrian safety now?

 

[michaeltan]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

MT is NOT a lawyer. Hes in the computer industry.

In a tenuous fashion, both, actually. I'm wondering though, what have I said which actually led rodders to believe that I had legal training of some sort. Or is that partially misreading my earlier post on my language being as convoluted as a lawyer's?

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

In a tenuous fashion, both, actually. I'm wondering though, what have I said which actually led rodders to believe that I had legal training of some sort. Or is that partially misreading my earlier post on my language being as convoluted as a lawyer's?

haha..u were giving advise to ahbengdriver in on of the thread so perhaps thats y. i know how professional lawyers sound. My uncle works in Rajah&Tan and there is a vast difference in sounding like a lawyer and actually being one. So i can tell inside out.

 

[michaeltan]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Also, by your logic: other car manufactuers (e.g. MB or Lexus), does not offer nor recommend driver training for their customers, unlike BMW. Does this mean that they do not care about whether their cars are driven safely and are driven to their maximal potential?

This is pretty much OT since we're discussing (or supposed to discuss) BMW's problem in reconciling their core marketing tenets - that of an inline-6 engine and a short overhang, with Pedestrian Safety which might require a V6 (with a flatter profile in order to create a buffer zone below the steel bonnet), and the trademark short front overhang with Pedestrian Safety which might require a longer front overhang to create a buffer zone in front of the car.

However, since we're pretty much OT anyway, let's address your question with another question. A lesson to drive your car fast, furiously (stage 2 IDT), and to the maximum potential, and of course, throwing in the politically correct SAFELY, isn't it a little hypocritical stretch of the imagination and potentially a culpable course?

But stage 1 ADT is valuable for most drivers from a safety perspective, but the slalom? c'mon. That's pretty far stretch from safety, don't you think?

And the IDT, hitting apexes, track techniques, handbrake reverse .... really, to put SAFETY to that course, is pretty much an afterthought, don't you agree?

Looking back from all these, let's face it. ADT is valuable from a safety perspective, but ... shouldn't they add in some passive pedestrian safety features to their cars too?

The additional assertion is that BMW, among all the euro manufacturers, may have singularly failed to meet their commitment towards enhanced pedestrian safety on the 1 July 2005 deadline whether in fact or in spirit with the E90 scoring so disastrously in the NCAP pedestrian ratings (awaiting more discussion on whether they DID or DID NOT meet their commitment)

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy driving very very fast. I enjoy track driving. I enjoy racing, whether street or track. But this discussion has nothing much to do with me personally, though I would personally like more passive pedestrian safety features in most cars because of my boy and other loved ones. This discussion has everything to do with the INTERESTING point of HOW BMW GONNA COPE WITH the engineering requirements of making their car more pedestrian friendly in case of in impact.

 

[michaeltan]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

haha..u were giving advise to ahbengdriver in on of the thread so perhaps thats y. i know how professional lawyers sound. My uncle works in Rajah&Tan and there is a vast difference in sounding like a lawyer and actually being one. So i can tell inside out.

I'm sorry for my convoluted language, caused you to misunderstand again. To be clear, I am both in the tech industry and also a member of the bar. Not that it's anything to be proud about given the general public opinion of lawyers almost everywhere in the world (oft times, justifiable in some fashion, they really make things complicated and unweildy!)

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

I'm sorry for my convoluted language, caused you to misunderstand again. To be clear, I am both in the tech industry and also a member of the bar. Not that it's anything to be proud about given the general public opinion of lawyers almost everywhere in the world (oft times, justifiable in some fashion, they really make things complicated and unweildy!)

u sound wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off from that. and nope, i didnt misunderstand. Even if you are a member of the bar, you dont sound one. i think you have outlived your ambition as a lawyer or having been a lawyer by being in IT for far too long.

 

[oomph]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

what quandary ? just because the standards are higher in the EU where BMW originates ?

Toyota and other jap make still roll out tin-can vans and pickup trucks for sale in Asia that can only be described as driver/passenger dangerous ! Of course they don't sell it in the EU cos' they don't make the grade....

On the issue of safety, its a personal responsibiliy isn't it. If you're going to take the NS expressway at 180kmh and the City Hall turn at >100kmh, even if you're in the safest sedan that Lexus can build, the pedestrian is not going to survive. I'd shudder to think at what happens to loved ones too, particularly at breakneck speeds.

I'd expect that since you're calling out on the issue of safety, you're implying that you're not at all guilty in driving that puts other lives in danger, otherwise, its just hard to talk to the black pot about the innocent kettle. Comprende ?

 

[SL2]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

The question is answered in principle, thus:

A car with a higher pedestrian safety rating should give the pedestrian a higher chance of survival.

Look at the www.euroncap.com and see the pedestrian safety ratings for the specific cars you mention.

i think this is the best and only way to answer your question.

Again, that's just theory or in principle. You have failed to satisfactorily answer my practical question which states as such: At 90km/h, will or will not, a Honda or Merc kill a pedestrian or only a BMW will?

 

[jason3s]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

hmz....v interesting thread.....

yes i do care for pedestrains, esp since not too long ago i was one myself...

but this controversial thread seems skewed to me....

1. the basic assumption is that the NCAP is an absolute
(yes it is the system used in EU for safety ratings, n NO i've not read up on NCAP) ------------------------- personally I feel that no one human-created system is perfectly objective, hence despite what the NCAP presents, I choose to believe that it contains a certain level of subjectivity. (was there something mentioned bout the French creating the system?)


2. We are not engineers, maybe you may have an engineering background or have done extensive research, but pls do note that current technology and science in general is never an absolute. There is never an absolute truth, especially in areas where the test situation cannot perfectly replicate that of the real-life situtaion. (therefore i advise you to take the engineers words with a pinch of salt)

3. Yes situational testing in the NCAP may correctly predict some practical situations, but I would think extensive research n documenting of IL6 engines and/or short overhangs leading to higher pedestrian death rates is a more convincing study.
That said, statistics itself is a subjective study!

4. None of us here are BMW engineers, and I'm sure none of us work for BMW or are remotely affliated with the company's RnD. We are here solely for the intangible or tangible benefits we 'discover' in this marque. You may or may not agree with me, I would not presume to force my love of the marque upon you. Hence, pt being, none of us here are qualified to comment on BMW's plans for the future. All we can do is speculate, which isnt much.

5. To ans your question; yes BMW would lose me as a consumer if they were to compromise on the performance and handling to make up for NCAP's requirements. Reason being that this is the main selling pt of the marque, lose it and cars in its competition category would be a dime a dozen.
Solution, either prove that the NCAP is not applicable in practical situations, or come up with a revolutionary concept that doesnt compromise the handling nor pedestrian safety.

Lastly, yes you have made your point and brought to our attention as drivers that pedestrian safety is impt. N yes i'm sure many here agree with you as well.

 

[jawzsg]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

1) no.
2) If I were to buy a performance biased vehicle, performance is important to me, and if there were a choice between 2 equal performance vehicles, one with better pedestrian safety rating and the other inferior, it would be the one which has a better pedestrian safety rating.
3) In my opinion, pretty real, but this is not for me to gauge. There are smarter people at Euroncap than me, and I do not have a real insider grasp of the situation. Similarly, nobody can say that it is a useless point without further research into statistics.
4) You can post anytime, and I will be delighted to discuss.
5) Avoidance is good. But if avoidance measures are exhausted, and finally you impact a pedestrian, it's nice to have a good pedestrian safety rating. I think you should limit your discussion to the reasonable. Read what you wrote and measure the sensibleness of your point #5.

Initially I started this thread as a academic discussion thread. As i did more research, I actually FELT for pedestrian safety when I thought about my boy.

Forgive me, but I really have an irrational love for my boy.

1) Why this overwhelming emphasis on Pedestrain Protection you yourself do not expect it to be a criteria?

2) when choosing a performance car, Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Pagani and the likes are not considered good choices coz they don't have NCAP ratings??

3) The smarter people in NCAP admit and highlight controversies in the rating system (see elmariachi's link). You can learn from them.... no??

4) Thank you but most of us knows better than to sour up your hospitality.. anyway, we do anticipate your "delightful discussion".. hence, no, if you ever invite us, we are matured enough to respect your choices and prerogatives.

5) Avoidance in this case makes the NCAP rating totally irrelevant. Avoidance becoming exhausted is a situation often the result of carelessness. Education and sound judgement is the way to go and a must have. NCAP is just a good to have.. not a must have.

If academic discussion was your intention, then I must say, you're not too positively inviting in that aspect. Please try harder.

My boy is 5 and I love him too. He recognises BMW to Hyundai to Lexus to Toyota to Koenigseggs and spent hours playing Forsa M & Project Gotham. He loves car and I do bring him to scrap yard to see the other side of a fast car driven negatively. When he' s of age, I'll tell him all about the NCAP so that he don't get a false sense of security when he crosses a road without any BMWs driving by. You should too.. so don't lobby too hard.. coz no ratings be it 5 star or otherwise can guarantee his chances.

Perhaps someday, I think you are a very likely candidate to design and build the "Ultimate Pedestrain Safe Car".. but meanwhile, can you just leave us with our Ultimate Driving Machine alone. We are mostly car enthusiats and care more about performance and handling and love to recognise these value in cars even out of the BMW marque.

(This for OT)
Hey guys, I intend to up my car's ratings... was hoping to modify the "Please fasten your seatbelt" thingy into "Please don't drive.. its not pedestrain safe".. anyone keen???

 

[TripleM]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

MichaelTan
When accident happens ( ie hitting a pedestrian) from the front....
Overhangs become irrelevant. How do u explain the use of PU bumper material in BMW vs the steel bumper used by Taxi and yes they have long overhang....What difference does it make? If u dont already know, BMW front bumper uses some kind of buffer that looks and feels like a foam. I have seen it in my car at least.

Accident is accident...What is more important is the safety of the people in the car, not the pedestrians , arguably speaking.
How often u see cars hitting pedestrians vs cars hitting cars?????
Tell me.....

 

[totoseow]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

this thread bored me.

i enjoy my car. i do not AIM to hit pedestrians, motorcars, cyclists or any debris on the road. i dun give 2 hoots to ncap...if other makes (ie lexus) wants to go ahead n get a 7-star rating..by all means. at this moment i enjoy the dynamics of bmw and thats what matters most.

dun want my bmw to get a 10 star rating, and it looks like 4-spring mattress on wheels...

 

[rodders]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

this thread bored me.

i enjoy my car. i do not AIM to hit pedestrians, motorcars, cyclists or any debris on the road. i dun give 2 hoots to ncap...if other makes (ie lexus) wants to go ahead n get a 7-star rating..by all means. at this moment i enjoy the dynamics of bmw and thats what matters most.

dun want my bmw to get a 10 star rating, and it looks like 4-spring mattress on wheels...

Be careful of what you say cos he's gonna call you a monster any time soon cos he loves his son too much.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Let's end this in a happy note, okay?

I had a nightmare last nite. That the admin put michaeltan on trial and I was hired as the prosecutor to grill him...... here's the courtroom scene.

Michael: You want answers to my agenda on advocating on pedestrian safety against the blue propeller?

Kenntona: I think I'm entitled.

Michael: You want answers?!

Kenntona: I want the truth!

Michael: You can't handle the truth!

Michael: Son, we live in a world that has different marques and some of those marques are over-hyped and need to be tested and tried by men with guts and some objective scrutiny. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Barry? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the blue propeller and curse the Lexus; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that my Lexus, while less than effective and efficient in your view, probably helped some sales and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, entertain some forumers.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at meetups you want me in the forum, you need me in the forum. We use words like NCAP, responsibility and monsters. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very fun and laughter I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you buy a Lexus and put your money to mod something. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Kenntona: Did you try to evoke negative responses from the forum by trolling the pedestrian safety thread?

Michael: I did the job I had to do.

Kenntona: Did you try to evoke negative responses?

Michael: You're God damn right I did!

Michael: You farkin' people. You have no idea how to manage a forum. All you did was glorifed the brand today, Kenntona. That's all you did. You put the BMW's forum on an altar. Sweet dreams, son.

Kenntona: Don't call me son. I'm a BMW-SG forumer and a responsible BMW driver.

 

[BlackStealth]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

This is getting damn boring. Michael is loving this... this will never end. Will Moderator or admin please lock up this thread??

 

[Remus325]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

Here's what michael tan really thinks about udm drivers:

But BMW sub 3L type must defeat. This include the 318, 320, 323, 325, 520, 523, 525, and of course, the 730 SURELY must defeat, whether I am driving C180, C200, GTI, Subaru, or VIOS, I must give them a run for their money. Why? Because they spend so much to buy an ultimate driving machine with sub 200HP, they feel that they must prove that their machine is ultimate, yet most of them do not dare to close in on the redline. I always perversely feel that I must exploit this dilemma in them. This is the ******* in me.

http://forum.carma.com.sg/showthread.php?t=1228532

 

[michaeltan]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

u sound wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off from that. and nope, i didnt misunderstand. Even if you are a member of the bar, you dont sound one. i think you have outlived your ambition as a lawyer or having been a lawyer by being in IT for far too long.

Err ... thanks for the compliments. Lawyers are a varied lot, most of them try not to allow the pompous legalese slip out to real life.

 

[rodders]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

This guy should really be banned from this forum. We all know where he's coming from whenever he post an article. Even though he denies it, we know he has hidden agendas.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

I read further in the Carma thread and I came across this from Michael Tan:

"There are some things in this world which are inherently, fundamentally, and objectively immoral - eg. drink driving, stealing, killing, raping, which are so obviously immoral that they cannot be encouraged whatsoever in this forum.

There are other things, like travelling fast in an automobile, which the morality is not objectively negative. In fact, some countries like Germany there is a road with unlimited speed.

Breaking the law in itself is not considered objectively immoral if the law itself lacks the objective moral backing required.

Until I am overruled by the management of Carma, as a moderator, I myself shall allow any post unless objectively immoral and/or of an unfair nature (eg. spamming, adverts, etc)."

Put this in perspective vis-a-vis the noble cause on pedestrian safety and I am so awed......

Here's what michael tan really thinks about udm drivers:

But BMW sub 3L type must defeat. This include the 318, 320, 323, 325, 520, 523, 525, and of course, the 730 SURELY must defeat, whether I am driving C180, C200, GTI, Subaru, or VIOS, I must give them a run for their money. Why? Because they spend so much to buy an ultimate driving machine with sub 200HP, they feel that they must prove that their machine is ultimate, yet most of them do not dare to close in on the redline. I always perversely feel that I must exploit this dilemma in them. This is the ******* in me.

http://forum.carma.com.sg/showthread.php?t=1228532

 

[michaeltan]

Re: Another BMW marketing-engineering-legislation quandary - Pedestrian Protection

I'd expect that since you're calling out on the issue of safety, you're implying that you're not at all guilty in driving that puts other lives in danger, otherwise, its just hard to talk to the black pot about the innocent kettle. Comprende ?

Just as:

One need not get cancer to be a cancer researcher
One need not die to talk about death
One need not be an angel to be a lawyer for a good man
The Pope need not experience carnal relations to talk about family and sex

Therefore:

One need not be a road angel to talk about safety.

The main thing needed to talk about it, is logic and sense.

One last thing, the initial purpose of this thread was NOT to talk about safety. It was meant to discuss BMW's unique marketing values and the inherent conflict between these marketing values (I6 engine and short front overhangs) with modern requirements for Pedestrian Safety. Nothing much to do with safety, merely, the quandary.

But it is also good to talk about safety if you want to.