Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

[Shaun]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Actually why not create a thread for each specific track day for the rest of the year. Have the interested parties put their names down. So if you can't make it for the first one, join the 2nd, if 2nd is full go for the 3rd.

Of course hogging is to be monitored by either RB or whoever will be helping him out. Hogging meaning putting their names down for all track days but "coincidentally" miss out on the first, then the 2nd and then you see a trend. Perhaps removing that individual from the 3rd TD.

Many cannot project that far (work, travel). Another group wants to attend all and will register on all, and really attend all (no hog). When people have the urge to track, they register for the trackday available soonest, not one 120 days away.

In the rare occasion of a hogger, forced removal from the 3rd trackday (as per your example), will upset him, and is deemed by some here as too inflexible, unfriendly a move.

This way instead of fighting for that limited 40-50 slots on the 1st TD, you will have opened up say 250 slots for the whole year. Granted some only want to experience the track only once and may not go for the subsequent.

If you compare the real list and the waiting list of the last 3 - 4 trackdays, You will see that most are repeats at all of the trackdays, and the number of interested new drivers keeps growing. The tendency too is not that new drivers do 1 trackday and stop after that single experience. Usually they go for a couple of years before getting bored of it, many never stop. Just count the number of trackers with 2, 5, 10 years experience on the regular signup lists.

So thanks Barry, but unfortunately, a 250 slot list for the whole year does not solve the current problem of demand exceeding supply and jammed payment process, quality vs quantity balance, etc.

 

[discom]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Why not just adopt the method of letting the first 40 (or whatever the limit is) that signed up pay within 4 working days, if no payment is received, the name is struck off and the organiser will notify the next in line to make payment.

This way, the organiser does not have the headache of having to decide who paid first or who paid 2 seconds later. And he will not have to deal with 45 payments for 40 slots.

The official list will of course be complied by the organiser based on time of post as 2 people may past at the same time for slot 23 or whatever.

And if a paid slot cannot make it, maybe it should be returned to the organiser for a refund (minus a admin fee if deemed necessary) and the organiser can notify the next person on the waiting list.

Just hope to keep things simple for the organiser.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Hi Kenneth, yes good idea, and one also raised by Dazza earlier in the thread. It is probably the most practical idea suggested so far. The only consideration is quoted below

just hope there is no crashing of the forum due to 100 trying to post on the same thread at the same time. If the posts are too quick succession, there could still be chaos as usually the previous poster is quoted when adding self to the list, and with multiple posts going on within a minute or two, multiple people claiming similar spots on the list. I guess there's always the option of reordering the list at the end based on post chronology (board timestamp).

The other excellent idea that Kuvesh mentioned is that each only 1 person can book 1 slot. This way you don't get 1 person booking 5 slots for his friends early and depriving others of the slots.

Cheers

 

[wilman2772]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Why not just adopt the method of letting the first 40 (or whatever the limit is) that signed up pay within 4 working days, if no payment is received, the name is struck off and the organiser will notify the next in line to make payment.

This way, the organiser does not have the headache of having to decide who paid first or who paid 2 seconds later. And he will not have to deal with 45 payments for 40 slots.

The official list will of course be complied by the organiser based on time of post as 2 people may past at the same time for slot 23 or whatever.

And if a paid slot cannot make it, maybe it should be returned to the organiser for a refund (minus a admin fee if deemed necessary) and the organiser can notify the next person on the waiting list.

Just hope to keep things simple for the organiser.

The problem is 40+ paid within 6hrs after the tread was opened.........

Caught alot of them off guard.............

This shows we are desperate to track...........hahahahaha


'The Great White'

 

[rex7_vtec]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Many cannot project that far (work, travel). Another group wants to attend all and will register on all, and really attend all (no hog). When people have the urge to track, they register for the trackday available soonest, not one 120 days away.

In the rare occasion of a hogger, forced removal from the 3rd trackday (as per your example), will upset him, and is deemed by some here as too inflexible, unfriendly a move.



If you compare the real list and the waiting list of the last 3 - 4 trackdays, You will see that most are repeats at all of the trackdays, and the number of interested new drivers keeps growing. The tendency too is not that new drivers do 1 trackday and stop after that single experience. Usually they go for a couple of years before getting bored of it, many never stop. Just count the number of trackers with 2, 5, 10 years experience on the regular signup lists.

So thanks Barry, but unfortunately, a 250 slot list for the whole year does not solve the current problem of demand exceeding supply and jammed payment process, quality vs quantity balance, etc.

Honestly giving an excuse of not being able to plan 120 days ahead for a sincere trackie is irrelevant. Are you going to bring a medical team to cater for people who turn up feeling sick on track day itself as well?

If the rare occasion of the hogger turns up and gets removed, then tough luck mate. Should not have been a hogger in the first place. If you are worried about people saying the forum is unfriendly then how different is it when you strike them off the list for not paying on time?

What I'm saying is that as the days get closer, that particular individual can opt out if he/she really can't mak it due to work or family committments instad of leaving it until the day itself, potentially wasting a slot.

If you are saying demand exceeds supply then,

1.) Open up more slots for that particular trackday
or
2.) First pay first serve basis (which is what i suggested initially)
or
3.) Open up slots for the whole year so individuals or groups can plan ahead
or
4.) 1st timers and BMWs on track have priority over other marques

 

[Racebred]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

The idea of putting name down the list first then have 4 days to pay up is a good idea. A good tweak to the current system that we have. Because this time round a regular forummer put his name down real early but because couldnt get the money transferred in time (and we're talking only 5 hours late) he couldnt get a slot. I think I will go ahead and implement this (although admin work wise my brain will crash, coz now I need to additionally track who posted their interest when) for the next ones onwards. Sounds a lot fairer.

If we do have such big demand, I will seriously consider booking the whole day. The Pros:
1) We can split up cars with timing differentials. Good for safety.
2) newbies orientation can be more comprehesive. (We can even do driver training!)
3) We may have a free 12-1pm slot which we can do monkey stuff in, like a 5-lap race, a drag race, photo shoots, drift session... etc. I can arrange these, and this is at nobody's cost. We can even hold walk-through sessions for people serious about knowing every grain of tar on the track.
4) We can use one of the session for a low-volume track day. Good for people doing their time trials, upping their time attack experience.
5) Demand is definitely split up.

The Cons:
1) It splits up the "better" slot session with the "not so good" slot. My impression is that more people like the am session because the drive up is serene, the track is not too hot, and when you drive back it's still daylight. Does this mean that the pm session people may actually avoid? Then demand is not really split up.

And of course the cost. A full day track is 18000rm x 2 = 36000rm. It is still cost to cost, profit free pricing for bmwsg. So you guys can divide it up and gauge how the pricing is going to be, and then see if this is a good idea. I believe a full day track day will work if we have at least 60cars (which we do hit now, in terms of interest) We can split it 40-20, or 35-25. The final pricing per car will still be cheaper than other track days out there because there is no margins.


As for the idea of randomly striking people off, I dont think it is realistic. Because people like to track with friends. So people usually turn up in gangs, which increases the fun factor for everyone. What we need to do, is to move entire gangs into a different session/timeslot. This way, people can still have fun tracking with their mates.

As for going back to basics with the organisation of the track day only for BMWs, it does sound right, in principle. However if we extend our session, then we need not solve this problem already. However, if we must choose, then, I will have to limit it to BMW forum members (regardless of car), and then first come first served.

This also sort of tie in with the other point on posting for your friend. We could implement a rule where a person cannot block book for a big group of friends. If we are all members, we have our own account to log in and register. Of course a litle leeway can be given for people overseas, etc. Perhaps you can register 1 friend, but not a block booking.

As for opening up all the future track days one shot, if we can increase our supply (meaning, go to double sessions) then we need not consider opening up many more in advance, because people all have a good chance of participation, and hence no need for advance planning, but its a good idea nonetheless.


What I wanna try to achieve with a double session, is so that we can return to the days when people just jioed their friends "hey bro, let's go track day together" and they sign up and turn up and need not have to worry about a hundred rules and regulations and going through the stress of making timings and datelines.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

If the rare occasion of the hogger turns up and gets removed, then tough luck mate. Should not have been a hogger in the first place. If you are worried about people saying the forum is unfriendly then how different is it when you strike them off the list for not paying on time?

Exactly. There is no difference. Just about any rule is viewed as too unfriendly. Random ST strike, hogger strike, absolute 40 limit, etc.

What I'm saying is that as the days get closer, that particular individual can opt out if he/she really can't mak it due to work or family committments instad of leaving it until the day itself, potentially wasting a slot.

The current system allows opting out as described. It always has.

If you are saying demand exceeds supply then,

1.) Open up more slots for that particular trackday
or
2.) First pay first serve basis (which is what i suggested initially)
or
3.) Open up slots for the whole year so individuals or groups can plan ahead
or
4.) 1st timers and BMWs on track have priority over other marques

Points 1,2,4 have been discussed by a few people before in the thread already and finding the balance on those is in progress.

BTW, it's not me saying demand exceeds supply. Demand does in fact exceed supply. Look at the last few signup threads. Do more reading mate.
===

Shawn, great list of pros and cons. Full day trackdays sound more pro than con. I am sure that attendance will soon swell to completely fill out both morning and afternoon sessions. Eventually controls will probably have to be put in place, but I guess that can wait till then, if and when it happens.

Cool.. 1 for 1 or 1 for 2 booking does give a bit of flexibility.

 

[rex7_vtec]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Eh chill why so defensive? Nobody gonna crucify you. Besides don't you agree that demand does exceed supply?

As for opting out part I was aiming at the "planning 120 days ahead" scenario. Perhaps maybe read more or less to connect the dots?

Ok anyway, so much talk in the forum and so whats the end result?

 

[Shaun]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Eh chill, why so insistent on repeating points as if you have not read the posts?
What is the end result? I dunno.. you ask me, I ask who? lol
Is the discussion over, just started? midway? Who knows when it will conclude or what the consensus will be? You ever heard of a work in progress?

 

[dazza]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Nice Shawn.

I think you are right. More supply and a lot of the problems will go away.

A full track day with different options for newbies/drift/time trials sounds great!!

As for driving back at night. Personally I always drive up the day before for AM slot or drive back the nxt day on PM slot.

Rest me and the car before or after at the PanPac, KLIA.

 

[Elite]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

... If we do have such big demand, I will seriously consider booking the whole day. The Pros:
1) We can split up cars with timing differentials. Good for safety.
2) newbies orientation can be more comprehesive. (We can even do driver training!)
3) We may have a free 12-1pm slot which we can do monkey stuff in, like a 5-lap race, a drag race, photo shoots, drift session... etc. I can arrange these, and this is at nobody's cost. We can even hold walk-through sessions for people serious about knowing every grain of tar on the track.
4) We can use one of the session for a low-volume track day. Good for people doing their time trials, upping their time attack experience.
5) Demand is definitely split up.

The Cons:
1) It splits up the "better" slot session with the "not so good" slot. My impression is that more people like the am session because the drive up is serene, the track is not too hot, and when you drive back it's still daylight. Does this mean that the pm session people may actually avoid? Then demand is not really split up.

And of course the cost. A full day track is 18000rm x 2 = 36000rm. It is still cost to cost, profit free pricing for bmwsg. So you guys can divide it up and gauge how the pricing is going to be, and then see if this is a good idea. I believe a full day track day will work if we have at least 60cars (which we do hit now, in terms of interest) We can split it 40-20, or 35-25. The final pricing per car will still be cheaper than other track days out there because there is no margins.
.....
What I wanna try to achieve with a double session, is so that we can return to the days when people just jioed their friends "hey bro, let's go track day together" and they sign up and turn up and need not have to worry about a hundred rules and regulations and going through the stress of making timings and datelines.

Shawn -- The 9 am to 4 pm TD sounds like an excellent idea. More time and more flexibility for everyone, especially the opportunity for low volume in the afternoon -- best of both worlds

 

[Shaun]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

yeah sounds great... I'm always up there a day earlier, or a day later anyway. Sometimes both

 

[discom]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

I think I will go ahead and implement this (although admin work wise my brain will crash, coz now I need to additionally track who posted their interest when) for the next ones onwards. Sounds a lot fairer.

I can help you do the tracking, just have to give me a day or 2 advance notice so that I am prepared....will also allow me to put my name down first

If you do go to a full day track day, your track days will be much sought after as it is ideal for testing and tuning. You should put in place rules that will prevent this from happening as workshops etc may just use your track days to test their cars before MME or similar.

 

[Racebred]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

OK I shall go ahead and start thinking through the planning considerations for a full day track day for 2012.

On initial thoughts:

1) probably bring it back down to 5 full days (instead of the original planned 6 half-days) in 2012.
2) Personal vetting of each entry by organisers. We will still be selective on who and what type of car gets to track in our track day, to maintain participation quality.
3) Change of pricing. Though still cost-to-cost, the track fee will change depending on final total number of participants for each half-day.

We have until July 30 to make a decision, so we have time to brainstorm.

 

[TripleM]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Full TD is great , hard to get tho
Maybe aim for 2 or 3

 

[dazza]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

what about more frequent 1/2 day slots as an alternative?

 

[TripleM]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

think 6 slots a year r great.., nicely spaced out say roughly once every 2mths ( wishful thinking ) but in reality we can't get that
coz there r periods where the circuit is heavily booked for racing events. So for club trackdays, sometimes we end up having very uneven spacing of td slots and hv to accept the proposal quick before others take em

 

[Racebred]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Exactly. Once we sit down with SIC office to work out the calendar its really hard to find evenly spaced slots. The most prime day is obviously saturday, which everyone is gunning for, and there are only 52 of these.

I will propse the following, and then we can tweak the below suggestion if needed.

1) 6 track days for 2012. 3 full days and 3 half days.
2) We can have them in - Early Feb (coz jan23-24 is cny)
- Mid April (immediately after F1, avoiding good fri long weekend)
- End June ( after super GT)
- August (maybe national day weekend)
- early October ( before moto gp, avoiding Haji long weekend)
- mid December (after sepang 1000, before festive)

3) the 1st, 3rd and 5th dates will be full day track days.
4) i will set one session as a regular 40 car track day , and the other session as a 20 car track day. Fees will be S$195 and S$390 respectively.
5) if we do get a free 12-1pm lunch hour, I will set it to have 1st) 2 x 5 lap CCT. for cars above 2m.45s, and then cars below 2m.45s. 2nd) drag race. 3rd) drift session or newbie driver training. Or simply, just half an hour more for both am and pm sessions.

I okay, I will probably go by this guideline when doing the 2012 booking on july30.

 

[Racebred]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Accounting for Jul30 TD:
Brought fwd = S$4455 + RM3664
Jul30 = (40 x $195) + (6 x $45) = $8070
paid = RM18000 = S$7637.86 (forex used is 2.35668 )
Current balance = S$4887 + RM3664

 

[Racebred]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

I'm thinking, the oversubscription we experience in our past track days eventually gets whittled down to just about right 40 cars per TD. It could be a function of late pullouts resulting in inability to get new interests. But overall, we just about settle down to a 40-50 car interest.

In light of this demand trend, I think it may be prudent to not book so many double-session track days. I will still try one, in feb. The rest of the year, I will go for single sessions. Making it a total of 6 TD a year, (7 sessions in all). I am going to finalise this tomorrow. I will be driving up early to settle the 2012 dates. Any last minute inputs? Is the 2 month break in between each date too long?