Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

[TobyNik]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Eh sai... like what Silver always say about mods - you happy can already loh.... dun care what others say. lol.

+1..Hahaha! Yes, Steady!

 

[jinooi]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

eh dude, don't have exact comparison for you, but this might help...

roasty had 330 arbs on his 320, but still the aftermarket arb he installed was better. why? i am still waiting for the answer. (not that i doubt him, in fact i totally agree, just not endorsing the brand... er what the hell!!! you get the drift?)

Mock,

Ok, ok... I go try then post useful reviews ok? But layman descriptions only ya?

Ok, seriously...I was hoping that someone has info on whether the 335 ARBs are thicker than it's "lesser" siblings' ARBs cos I am under the impression that usually the thicker they are, the better especially within the same models but different capacity. I guess they were not fitted with the thicker ones in the first place because of costs issues and product postioning. So, I was hoping for someone with a 325/320 fitted with 335 ARBs to help out here lah.....................Eh SAI Boh, Bro Breyton?

And yes yes, you are right, these days "Keyboard mightier than sword!"

And BTW, MOCK....cannot tell how the ARBs will feel if trying a 335 leh....Car dynamics and weight different lah.........

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

have read up so much on arb, coilovers, strut bars, exhaust systems, bushings... you name it... i am inclined to take a huge pinch of salt on what each and every manufacturer claims, e.g. rogue, UUC, turner, SSDD, CA, vorshlag, etc...

and coming from the ad industry, i advise everyone to do the same. we make people want the things they don't need. although i won't admit to being the culprit in this case.

Good points, smart.

you will never have enough money or time to dispute all the claims you think are fallacious, unless you damn bloody boh liao...

There'll never be absolute proof, but everyone is free to ask fair questions. The responses will clear up the picture.

 

[axl]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

what are the considerations when choosing arb?
weight?
material?
diameter?
type of mounts / bushings?

I think ARBs are quite low-tech, so there wouldn't be significant different-designed mounts/bushings. Same for the material - 99% should be using the same type (high carbon steel according to WikiAnswers - What is the material of Sway Bar or Anti Roll Bar of vehicle )

Less weight of ARB is obviously better. Does it count towards unsprung weight (other than the struts/springs + brakes + wheels)?

Diameter - the larger it is, the more the body can resist torsion: Strength of Materials

Since we've eliminated most of the factors in ARB design, the only real determining factor for suitability should be D. And then again, it boils down to a particular owner's planned usage of his car, eg. 2 FD2R - a 90/10 street/track vehicle will obviously have a different requirement from a pure track-registered one. And likewise, a gravel-rally Evo's setup will obviously differ from a time-attack one.

So what is best for the user? Hard to tell... one may value comfort over outright grip/roll. So having not establish the desired characteristics, it's quite difficult to discuss to compare which is better (or not).

My 2 cents, pls correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Since most of us aren't experts in everything there is to know, we would have to rely on third parties who would ideally have the qualities listed earlier.

Which is neither possible insofar as independence nor economic feasibility is concerned.......

No, there are absolutely objective ways to quantify the changes. But they cost too much for enthusiasts. Would you spend 20K SGD and maybe 70 hours of downtime to set up a base with which to optimize your bar set up (among other things)? Butt feel is fast and cheap and works to a large degree, but when it comes to real accuracy, doesn't work. 10 - 20 years ago probably, not anymore.

Which was why I raised the question early on, on page 1. What was the criteria for the "optimal" ARB? If there is no clarity to that, what is the next best input for evaluation between two products?

In FP's case, her standard was her "butt dyno" which she did admit was entirely subjective. All Shaun did was point out that she was neither an authority on the subject nor had any data to bolster her position. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a personal attack. Don't see why everyone is getting all worked up over it.

Butt feel in this case has never been questioned because the alternatives are too expensive. The question was the comparison.

feel is used a lot, in other areas there are cheap methods of quantification, not so with suspension optimization (which bars are a part of).

How else could she have compared them, if "butt dyno" is to be omitted because it is not objective? No one could give a conclusive answer at this point. I am not saying she is right, but pinning her down based on her methodology to evaluate the two products look like a witchhunt here.

We know she is not an authority on this subject, but I really think she was merely sharing her thoughts on a product, not endorsing it. She has no vested interest whatsoever in the subject.

And I think that's the whole point in this discussion we are dealing with - just a usual forumer giving his or her thoughts on a product without a quantitative approach.

now that you guys have stirred my curiosity, i would like to point out that nobody has offered to answer the damn question... YET!!!

+1

 

[jinooi]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

BTW, didn't know you got H&R Sways......Must try! hahaha!

anytime bro, anytime...

and whilst we are at it, we might as well have a smoke with robot, he's feeling quite lonely in the temasek towers carpark

what are the considerations when choosing arb?
weight?
material?
diameter?
type of mounts / bushings?

I think ARBs are quite low-tech, so there wouldn't be significant different-designed mounts/bushings. Same for the material - 99% should be using the same type (high carbon steel according to WikiAnswers - What is the material of Sway Bar or Anti Roll Bar of vehicle )

Less weight of ARB is obviously better. Does it count towards unsprung weight (other than the struts/springs + brakes + wheels)?

Diameter - the larger it is, the more the body can resist torsion: Strength of Materials

Since we've eleminated most of the factors in ARB design, the only real determining factor for suitability should be D. And then again, it boils down to a particular owner's planned usage of his car, eg. 2 FD2R - a 90/10 street/track vehicle will obviously have a different requirement from a pure track-registered one. And likewise, a gravel-rally Evo will obviously differ from a time-attack one.

My 2 cents, pls correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

FINALLY!!! thanks dude

 

[kenntona]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Happiness with mods is good. But converting satisfaction to declarations of brand superiority over another, is unfair and harmful.

Not so serious lah, please.

If I (as a consumer, dun work for Shell) say Shell V Power feels better than Caltex Platinium, am I declaring one brand superiority over another?

Is it really "unfair and harmful?"

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Which is neither possible insofar as independence nor economic feasibility is concerned.......

No one asked for that. What was asked for was the simple reasoning.

Which was why I raised the question early on, on page 1. What was the criteria for the "optimal" ARB? If there is no clarity to that, what is the next best input for evaluation between two products?

For a given model, and desired application there is in fact an optimal, so mention the context and desired aim and everything gets alot clearer.

Optimal does not exist when initial problems and aims are not stated. The question wasn't even what was optimal, but what was seen as superior one to another. That in itself makes the answer super easy and subjective, but instead you get an emotional barrage.

How else could she have compared them, if "butt dyno" is to be omitted because it is not objective? No one could give a conclusive answer at this point. I am not saying she is right, but pinning her down based on her methodology to evaluate the two products look like a witchhunt here.

You keep missing the point Ken. Not sure why you keep ignoring it. Butt feel was never questioned. Comparison was.

And I think that's the whole point in this discussion we are dealing with - just a usual forumer giving his or her thoughts on a product without a quantitative approach.

And that's fine and dandy. Simple reasoning works. Just like people talk all the time about tires and their characteristics as applied. No one can ask for quantification in that case because it costs crazy amounts to. But if someone says "I don't think Michelin could ever be as good as Hankook", and when asked why (not for proof but simple reasoning), yells at the questioner, then something somewhere is off.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Not so serious lah, please.

If I (as a consumer, dun work for Shell) say Shell V Power feels better than Caltex Platinium, am I declaring one brand superiority over another?

Is it really "unfair and harmful?"

Read the original post Ken. Feel wasn't mentioned in the first post.

If you say "I don't think Caltex could ever be as good as Shell" without any reasoning whatsoever, then that is unfair. But fuel is more complex than bars or grade 5 bolts. Worse still if you're personal friends with the the Shell station owner and can't even come up with much at all, having to scream and yell before answering any question.

"DPE which I used to run probably won't be as good as the Neez I have now. Why? How dare you question me, what hidden agenda do you have? Screw you I'm going out for a drink, come Neez vendor, let's go grab a kopi"

Not that the Neez vendor had anything to do with it, but the Neez supporter may not necessarily been fair at all. So questions are asked, and if simple fair reply is given, everything's fine. Doesn't have to be absolute proof. No one needs to measure rim stiffness and MOI. "oh cos the look is just awesome" or "oh cos I heard they run a superior material".. something simple like that is fine.

 

[Crufty Dusty]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Kenn... it is insufficient for FP to say "I like ABC better" and just leave it at that unless she had the qualities listed earlier. She ended up clarifying her position: the thickness of the ARB influenced her decision, which was a far better answer.

I still don't see anything wrong with anyone asking for details as to how someone arrived at a conclusion.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

No one asked for that. What was asked for was the simple reasoning.

Optimal does not exist when initial problems and aims are not stated. The question wasn't even what was optimal, but what was seen as superior one to another. That in itself makes the answer super easy and subjective, but instead you get an emotional barrage.

You keep missing the point Ken. Not sure why you keep ignoring it. Butt feel was never questioned. Comparison was.

Errr, nothing to do with my emotions barrage dude. Read from Post 2 onwards.

I was simply trying to point out that she is using a different evaluation yardstick (butt dyno) to compare. She said, "..... I still don't think it's gonna be better than these Hotchkis. These are real good stuffs!!!" Her basis? Her butt feel. One feels better. Is there another way to quantify her selection? No. And that's her reasoning, hence the comparison. I was looking up to you to provide a better valuation model for her, to tell her an objective way to tell which brand is better. But no one could.

I am not sure which point I missed, while you keep asserting that I missed the point and ignore it. No one could give an "optimal/better" answer. Was that the better ARB for her? No one can tell, at least in a feasible manner. It appears that this is a qualitative topic, hence qualitative answer. She was simply using the next better yardstick to evaluate two products, not endorsing one. Remember, she is not the guru here.

There are many forumers who will fall into this category of judgement - ask which workshop is better, which coilover is better or which petrol is better and you can hop onto their valuation bases and question how they pick their choices. Are they necessarily endorsing anything? Or simply sharing a positive experience? If the latter, then we need not scrutinise the method, for the average forumer could neither adopt a quantitative approach nor an answer that could be substantiated. Opinions are opinions, not vested. I hope you see my point here too.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

I was simply trying to point out that she is using a different evaluation yardstick (butt dyno) to compare. She said, "..... I still don't think it's gonna be better than these Hotchkis. These are real good stuffs!!!" Her basis? Her butt feel. One feels better. Is there another way to quantify her selection? No. And that's her reasoning, hence the comparison. I was looking up to you to provide a better valuation model for her, to tell her an objective way to tell which brand is better.

You're ignoring the point that feel wasn't mentioned in her first post. Hence the question. Going in circles here

But no one could.

No one wants to because it'll be longer than 2 sentences it'll be dismissed as too technical. It would also require a retard to want to help after getting yelled at for asking a simple question.

I am not sure which point I missed, while you keep asserting that I missed the point and ignore it. No one could give an "optimal/better" answer. Was that the better ARB for her? No one can tell, at least in a feasible manner.

There are some practical before and after tests that are possible with a very simple and transferable data system, but the unpleasantness doesn't make it worth it to carry out.

Opinions are opinions, not vested. I hope you see my point here too.

Most times opinions are not vested. Sometimes they are. It is everyone's right to ask fair questions to figure things out themselves. No need for emotional tidal waves, obscene laguage, OTs, dialect.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

oh btw, practical tests listed above would quantify changes or current state of car So nope, not necessarily qualitative.

 

[althaus]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

You're ignoring the point that feel wasn't mentioned in her first post. Hence the question. Going in circles here

To be fair to fiercepink, she did say on the ARB thread that she tested the Hotchkis and based on her review, it is better. Its like those customer reviews, which based on past experiences have in fact been better than professional reviewers.

No one wants to because it'll be longer than 2 sentences it'll be dismissed as too technical.

Hasty generalization.

There are some practical before and after tests that are possible with a very simple and transferable data system, but the unpleasantness doesn't make it worth it to carry out.

It's just like test driving cars before buying one. Comprehensive tests not practical, so use one's feel.

Most times opinions are not vested. Sometimes they are. It is everyone's right to ask fair questions to figure things out themselves.

Right on asking questions. But there's the PM for a more polite method.

After all, it was just one person's perspectives on a particular product or brand. And after seeing Roasty's pictures, I also kind of like the Hotchkis, especially if it can mean more chicks looking at my car....

 

[TripleM]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

from my personal experience
i used to worship the ARB in my early days of car ownership here but now I prefer to stick with the stock set up and play with damper/springs instead...
the result is a million times more satisfying...

 

[kenntona]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

You're ignoring the point that feel wasn't mentioned in her first post. Hence the question. Going in circles here

I would have been stubborn and stuck to the H&R which I still don't think it's gonna be better than these Hotchkis. These are real good stuffs!!!

She did not use the word "feel", but she posted the word "think." Unless we are getting into semantics...... "think" denotes personal opinion, right? (as in "I think Esso petrol is better than SPC's")

She would be deservedly shot by you had she used the word "know."

[Metaphorically speaking, of course]

There are some practical before and after tests that are possible with a very simple and transferable data system, but the unpleasantness doesn't make it worth it to carry out.

oh btw, practical tests listed above would quantify changes or current state of car. So nope, not necessarily qualitative.

Errr, so could a normal driver like Fiercepink have done the "practical" tests? Is it even practical to her at all?

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

To be fair to fiercepink, she did say on the ARB thread that she tested the Hotchkis and based on her review, it is better. Its like those customer reviews, which based on past experiences have in fact been better than professional reviewers.

Usually reviews from rational minds turn out good. Not every customer is rational.

Hasty generalization.

You see the same accusations on this thread when nothing technical has been mentioned yet. You try to get into the real tradeoffs, measurement and calculation and see how few pages you can condense it into and be accurate. Watch the accusations come. It's happened too many times before. You probably haven't been around long enough to realize this.

Right on asking questions. But there's the PM for a more polite method.

A public claim should be questioned publicly. Had the claim been made in private, it would have been questioned in private.

I also kind of like the Hotchkis, especially if it can mean more chicks looking at my car....

Good for you.. enjoy!

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

She did not use the word "feel", but she posted the word "think." Unless we are getting into semantics...... "think" denotes personal opinion, right?

Yes and what led to that opinion was the question asked. Why the need for drama?

Errr, so could a normal driver like Fiercepink have done the "practical" tests? Is it even practical to her at all?

Extremely practical. 20 minutes. Cost to FP? Zero.

 

[Terry]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

from my personal experience
i used to worship the ARB in my early days of car ownership here but now I prefer to stick with the stock set up and play with damper/springs instead...
the result is a million times more satisfying...

hmm... jack..how come ah more satisfying ah?

btw i remember about ur post somewhere saying that if u install ARB after coilover cannot really feel...

so i think.. coilover is the most important one for butt feel... and actual handling..

how about ARB? do they Really make that much difference? or merely for butt feel when doing spirited driving on the road?

or really makes a difference in track?

i dunoo man......


btw i also dunno if hotchkis get more hot chicks staring at ur car...

but i know bling bling rims does...

 

[Shaun]

Re: Swaybar comparison (assumptions?)

Spring to bar ratio and which to go up on is not a fixed thing. What works for one car most times doesn't work for another. The factors to consider have been mentioned earlier on in this thread. It's not even limited to spring, bars, and damping, but preload as well. Some changes can be made in finer increments and quicker than others which is a plus.

The assessment of a change is important. What helps turn in might not help tire temps or life. What is comfortable on the street may not help stability in sweepers, etc. Which is why model, application, driver type, are required specifics to determine how far or close from optimal a set up is.