The BMW Brand
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centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: The BMW Brand
For ROAD cars, BMW has committed the sin of outsourcing all electronics engineering to 3rd parties, especially Robert Bosch. Their mechanical engineering teams are still intact, and thriving, but the volume of their cars cannot match people like Toyota (nobody can) who can throw 2 billion dollars into the development of their V6 engines with incredible complexity and reliability. Because their volume is way smaller, the amount of cash they can plonk in is way less than Toyota, because the justification is less.
It is fortunate that BMW can sell their cars for more cash, but so can Toyota, for the first time, the Lexus brand is now are more expensive than BMW for the same spec. This is a further blow to their engineering teams.
BMW's main focus is on lightening their cars, and that is something which the other germans have not been doing, but LIGHT cars don't sell easily - witness Jaguar XJ, XK, Audi A2, TT2 ... it's hard to sell `lightness' as a feature to the uninformed masses.
And BMW marketing rarely sells to the informed hardcore enthusiast masses, relying more on the pseudo informed masses. The market has been taken by Subaru and Mitsubishi, with the incumbent still strong - Porsche. And these have long been on the `lightness' thing.
For ROAD cars, BMW has committed the sin of outsourcing all electronics engineering to 3rd parties, especially Robert Bosch. Their mechanical engineering teams are still intact, and thriving, but the volume of their cars cannot match people like Toyota (nobody can) who can throw 2 billion dollars into the development of their V6 engines with incredible complexity and reliability. Because their volume is way smaller, the amount of cash they can plonk in is way less than Toyota, because the justification is less.
It is fortunate that BMW can sell their cars for more cash, but so can Toyota, for the first time, the Lexus brand is now are more expensive than BMW for the same spec. This is a further blow to their engineering teams.
BMW's main focus is on lightening their cars, and that is something which the other germans have not been doing, but LIGHT cars don't sell easily - witness Jaguar XJ, XK, Audi A2, TT2 ... it's hard to sell `lightness' as a feature to the uninformed masses.
And BMW marketing rarely sells to the informed hardcore enthusiast masses, relying more on the pseudo informed masses. The market has been taken by Subaru and Mitsubishi, with the incumbent still strong - Porsche. And these have long been on the `lightness' thing.
foxfrc5
Well-Known Member
Re: The BMW Brand
That comment in the paper about "black BMW drivers" had me laughing, especially since, if viewed grammatically, it's pretty racist... Hah.
Your comments about Lexus are spot on. Lexus is definitely the biggest threat to BMW right now, more so than Audi and Merc.
I always thought that BMW has great engines, especially the creamy smooth 6 cylinder ones. At the same price point here for an entry-level 6 cylinder BMW (323i or 523i), you probably couldn't get as good an engine from competitors' cars.caySman;180309 said:
That comment in the paper about "black BMW drivers" had me laughing, especially since, if viewed grammatically, it's pretty racist... Hah.
Your comments about Lexus are spot on. Lexus is definitely the biggest threat to BMW right now, more so than Audi and Merc.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: The BMW Brand
Toyota/Lexus has an undeniable advantage over all the Germans, in that they control their electronic destiny - Denso. Denso is 100% owned by Toyota and it is the leader in automotive electronics now, when even Ford has started to use it in preference to Delphi Automotive electronics. I was pretty surprised.
Electronics is all important as major advances today are only possible because of the electronics. For example, Toyota's new direct/indirect gas injection engines require such careful and complicated electronic control, plus incredible machining technology for the head, while BMW, relying on Robert Bosch, cannot innovate this way. So BMW relies on simpler technology, like Valvetronic, while very elegant, cannot achieve the incredible torque curve of some Toyota engines like their new 3.5L which is today's best mainstream engine among all. Moreover, Valvetronic does not give the advantage of heat reduction which DI gives - and now, this `side effect' of heat reduction has become the main reason why DI is great.
Valvetronic also suffers from a engineer's crisis of confidence, as it relies on a electromechanical acutator - a motor, which is inherently a scary thing, for the main `throttle control'. Why BMW did it was presumably to bypass the Direct Injection patent issue, but the inherent confidence crisis on Valvetronic motors has caused BMW's new cars to use DI instead. That's a few hundred million dollars of R&D down the drain.
I read in this forum last night, and there is a certain poster which mentioned that BMW has to rely on inline 6 cylinder engines not as a technical point, but as a marketing reason. I agree to a large extent. That's why, I said, that BMW's marketing has to take a back seat to engineering now, just for the next generation of engines and concepts for BMW to continue to innovate without the ill-founded shackles of marketing.
All this lengthy discourse, is to mention, that BMW is a victim of its incredibly successful marketing and also shackled by its brand reputation. It's a good problem, but BMW must handle this now. Their surge in sales the last 2 years has suddenly stopped. I suspect that this is because BMW is the `EXECUTIVE'S NICE CAR DURING UNCERTAIN TIMES' and the last 2 years have been rather tentative. The economy this year should be confident enough for high execs to buy a step up BMW, like a Porsche, Maserati, and the new M3 and old M5 should be a bust at least in `confident economy' countries like Singapore, Hong Kong and Dubai. Also, the M3 and M5 are compromise cars, and a `confident economy' might permit many prospective customers in this segment to buy `no compromise' cars, 2 of them or more.
Suddenly, the BMW brand has become boring. The M3 has become a V8 instead of a I6 traditionally, and that's the end of an era. The M5 is ageing, with no successor near, and their engine has no hybrid successor in sight to lend the endless torque of an electric motor. Their M coupe, Z4 Coupe, are much lesser machines than the Cayman S and Cayman. Their Z4 pales in comparison to the new Boxster and Boxster S. Their 7-series faces threats from the excellent hybrid Lexus LS. Their 5-series is ageing now, but gracefully, and will maintain a good revenue stream for BMW, but the 5 isn't exactly a halo.
Which leaves us the 3 series. The most imminent threat of the IS series has struck, and the upcoming Mercedes C-Class with Toyota-style quality controls is poised to strike it further - and this time, seems that the C-Class 3rd generation strike is incredibly strong. Even I would consider a Merc now if I were in this class of car. The new quality controls will make the C-Class EXCELLENT.
And as with the 3-coupe, currently the leader of the band being the 335i which the poster called elmariachi is buying, it is without peer. The new CLK will be at least 1.5 years off. The Audi has failed. Lexus has no such competitor. Porsche Panamericana is a weird animal, not here yet, and otherwise Porsche has no competitor. So it leaves the 3-coupe to uphold BMW's honor, and it will. Except the M3 of course, I expect it to fail - since this year, the people who can afford an M3 to consider the excellent 911 997 and ... surprise ... Mitsu Evo X and Subaru WRX STI - just because there is no more need to compromise in a hot economy.
Let's just see whether my mad ravings will come to fruition.
Yes, BMW has you to think that their engines great, which they are, just that relative to the best engines from the rest, they aren't heads and shoulders above.foxfrc5;180459 said:
Toyota/Lexus has an undeniable advantage over all the Germans, in that they control their electronic destiny - Denso. Denso is 100% owned by Toyota and it is the leader in automotive electronics now, when even Ford has started to use it in preference to Delphi Automotive electronics. I was pretty surprised.
Electronics is all important as major advances today are only possible because of the electronics. For example, Toyota's new direct/indirect gas injection engines require such careful and complicated electronic control, plus incredible machining technology for the head, while BMW, relying on Robert Bosch, cannot innovate this way. So BMW relies on simpler technology, like Valvetronic, while very elegant, cannot achieve the incredible torque curve of some Toyota engines like their new 3.5L which is today's best mainstream engine among all. Moreover, Valvetronic does not give the advantage of heat reduction which DI gives - and now, this `side effect' of heat reduction has become the main reason why DI is great.
Valvetronic also suffers from a engineer's crisis of confidence, as it relies on a electromechanical acutator - a motor, which is inherently a scary thing, for the main `throttle control'. Why BMW did it was presumably to bypass the Direct Injection patent issue, but the inherent confidence crisis on Valvetronic motors has caused BMW's new cars to use DI instead. That's a few hundred million dollars of R&D down the drain.
I read in this forum last night, and there is a certain poster which mentioned that BMW has to rely on inline 6 cylinder engines not as a technical point, but as a marketing reason. I agree to a large extent. That's why, I said, that BMW's marketing has to take a back seat to engineering now, just for the next generation of engines and concepts for BMW to continue to innovate without the ill-founded shackles of marketing.
All this lengthy discourse, is to mention, that BMW is a victim of its incredibly successful marketing and also shackled by its brand reputation. It's a good problem, but BMW must handle this now. Their surge in sales the last 2 years has suddenly stopped. I suspect that this is because BMW is the `EXECUTIVE'S NICE CAR DURING UNCERTAIN TIMES' and the last 2 years have been rather tentative. The economy this year should be confident enough for high execs to buy a step up BMW, like a Porsche, Maserati, and the new M3 and old M5 should be a bust at least in `confident economy' countries like Singapore, Hong Kong and Dubai. Also, the M3 and M5 are compromise cars, and a `confident economy' might permit many prospective customers in this segment to buy `no compromise' cars, 2 of them or more.
Suddenly, the BMW brand has become boring. The M3 has become a V8 instead of a I6 traditionally, and that's the end of an era. The M5 is ageing, with no successor near, and their engine has no hybrid successor in sight to lend the endless torque of an electric motor. Their M coupe, Z4 Coupe, are much lesser machines than the Cayman S and Cayman. Their Z4 pales in comparison to the new Boxster and Boxster S. Their 7-series faces threats from the excellent hybrid Lexus LS. Their 5-series is ageing now, but gracefully, and will maintain a good revenue stream for BMW, but the 5 isn't exactly a halo.
Which leaves us the 3 series. The most imminent threat of the IS series has struck, and the upcoming Mercedes C-Class with Toyota-style quality controls is poised to strike it further - and this time, seems that the C-Class 3rd generation strike is incredibly strong. Even I would consider a Merc now if I were in this class of car. The new quality controls will make the C-Class EXCELLENT.
And as with the 3-coupe, currently the leader of the band being the 335i which the poster called elmariachi is buying, it is without peer. The new CLK will be at least 1.5 years off. The Audi has failed. Lexus has no such competitor. Porsche Panamericana is a weird animal, not here yet, and otherwise Porsche has no competitor. So it leaves the 3-coupe to uphold BMW's honor, and it will. Except the M3 of course, I expect it to fail - since this year, the people who can afford an M3 to consider the excellent 911 997 and ... surprise ... Mitsu Evo X and Subaru WRX STI - just because there is no more need to compromise in a hot economy.
Let's just see whether my mad ravings will come to fruition.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: The BMW Brand
As a kid, I never thought of it.
When I started to read the car mags, I thought of it continually.
When I drove it as my first big HP car, I loved it.
When I drove a Porsche 911 993, my head reeled, could any car be as good as this? And I thought that the M3 was overweight and clumsy.
When I drove the Boxster S, my head reeled even more ... my god, this is even better than the 911 993. (But I'll never get a cloth top, it's too hairdresser for me. It's a snob thing - an `enthusiast' wouldn't do cabrios. I can't go meet my friends in a Boxster S. No way.)
When I drove the Cayman S, I was in a trance. It CANNOT get better than this. And I found the M3 even heavier, beastier and much more of a compromised car than I initially thought, and .... the fabled I6 334HP engine? Bah! Nothing compares to the flat 6 just behind you, mid-mounted. Not even the 911 993.
So now, I look upon the M3 as an overweight, clumsy bugger. It no longer holds any romance for me. BUT, there CANNOT only be ONE contender - Porsche - for the Ultimate Driving Machine. Not only that, there cannot be only 1 car, the modified Boxster-chassis Cayman. So, I wished that the M3 would be a GREAT car. Maybe, they could CSL all their M3s and not even release a single normal M3.
As it is, M3 is merely a bumpier version of the 335i with marginally better capability. How in the world would the M3 succeed well in the hearts of `no compromise' enthusiasts is beyond me.
The M3 - this is the evolution of my desire.axl;180478 said:caySman: Good post above, very informative and analytically well-written! Though personally I don't agree with your prediction that the new M3 would fail. We'll see...
As a kid, I never thought of it.
When I started to read the car mags, I thought of it continually.
When I drove it as my first big HP car, I loved it.
When I drove a Porsche 911 993, my head reeled, could any car be as good as this? And I thought that the M3 was overweight and clumsy.
When I drove the Boxster S, my head reeled even more ... my god, this is even better than the 911 993. (But I'll never get a cloth top, it's too hairdresser for me. It's a snob thing - an `enthusiast' wouldn't do cabrios. I can't go meet my friends in a Boxster S. No way.)
When I drove the Cayman S, I was in a trance. It CANNOT get better than this. And I found the M3 even heavier, beastier and much more of a compromised car than I initially thought, and .... the fabled I6 334HP engine? Bah! Nothing compares to the flat 6 just behind you, mid-mounted. Not even the 911 993.
So now, I look upon the M3 as an overweight, clumsy bugger. It no longer holds any romance for me. BUT, there CANNOT only be ONE contender - Porsche - for the Ultimate Driving Machine. Not only that, there cannot be only 1 car, the modified Boxster-chassis Cayman. So, I wished that the M3 would be a GREAT car. Maybe, they could CSL all their M3s and not even release a single normal M3.
As it is, M3 is merely a bumpier version of the 335i with marginally better capability. How in the world would the M3 succeed well in the hearts of `no compromise' enthusiasts is beyond me.
Re: The BMW Brand
What heat reduction effect does DI have? Less heat produced at light load cruise when it can run very lean statified charge? I think the main attractions of DI are reduced emissions, more power when required, and lower fuel consumption.
I don't think the problem with valvetronic is the electric motor. I mean.. there are lots of cars running around with drive by wire throttles and that's all motor controlled too. Any electronic system can be engineered to reach whatever levels of reliability that the manufacturers set, so I think the advantages or disadvantages lay in other areas.
IMO cast iron I6s only have smoothness and quietness as pluses. They're heavy, long, higher CG vs most Vs, and it is harder to get a crankshaft that long to resist torsional vibration, making higher engine speed operation a challenge.
The M3 CSL has been the only BMW I've really wanted. Still it's hard to compete with the advantages of a mid engine layout.
What heat reduction effect does DI have? Less heat produced at light load cruise when it can run very lean statified charge? I think the main attractions of DI are reduced emissions, more power when required, and lower fuel consumption.
I don't think the problem with valvetronic is the electric motor. I mean.. there are lots of cars running around with drive by wire throttles and that's all motor controlled too. Any electronic system can be engineered to reach whatever levels of reliability that the manufacturers set, so I think the advantages or disadvantages lay in other areas.
IMO cast iron I6s only have smoothness and quietness as pluses. They're heavy, long, higher CG vs most Vs, and it is harder to get a crankshaft that long to resist torsional vibration, making higher engine speed operation a challenge.
The M3 CSL has been the only BMW I've really wanted. Still it's hard to compete with the advantages of a mid engine layout.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: The BMW Brand
My rudimentary understanding based on high school physics: The fine atomized spray of a high pressure gasoline direct injection absorbs the latent heat of vaporization, reducing cylinder head heat, enabling a higher compression ratio without knocking.
And I agree with you on the motor reliability - that it can be engineered in.
My rudimentary understanding based on high school physics: The fine atomized spray of a high pressure gasoline direct injection absorbs the latent heat of vaporization, reducing cylinder head heat, enabling a higher compression ratio without knocking.
And I agree with you on the motor reliability - that it can be engineered in.
Re: The BMW Brand
Yes a better atomized fuel mass will mean a cooler more well mixed charge that will resist knock better. The heat reduction won't be any greater specifically in the cylinder head area for this reason though. It will be because the fuel is directed back up toward the head and even then, with standard injection, the piston (which is the other major surface of the cylinder) is kept very cool by the fuel concentration right above it and for a long time. The majority of knock resistance IMO comes from burning most of the fuel mass close to the plug. If there is no fuel in the edges of the cylinder, then there is nothing to burn, no origin for a second front. The DI jet also induces turbulence in the cylinder, which aids knock resistance to a point. Standard port injection in itself does not induce turbulence.
Sorry for the OT.
caySman;180527 said:
Yes a better atomized fuel mass will mean a cooler more well mixed charge that will resist knock better. The heat reduction won't be any greater specifically in the cylinder head area for this reason though. It will be because the fuel is directed back up toward the head and even then, with standard injection, the piston (which is the other major surface of the cylinder) is kept very cool by the fuel concentration right above it and for a long time. The majority of knock resistance IMO comes from burning most of the fuel mass close to the plug. If there is no fuel in the edges of the cylinder, then there is nothing to burn, no origin for a second front. The DI jet also induces turbulence in the cylinder, which aids knock resistance to a point. Standard port injection in itself does not induce turbulence.
Sorry for the OT.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: The BMW Brand
But, and engine built to `International Race Standards' is totally different from an engine built to `the grind of the CTE every day for a decade'. Race Engines have to last full rpm, with concessions for G-force oil transfer (dry sump solution), for like a few hundred km between rebuilds. And you have to build it as light as possible, and it is a sin to over-engineer the engine for fear of being too heavy. And it's supposed to break at the end of the race with some leeway of course.
Road car engines are pretty different. If a road car engine were built like a race car engine, you'd not have a very good deal, IMHO. The Carrera GT reputedly had some serious work done to it before the Le Mans engine could be certified to road car use.
So I guess the article you pointed me to has got nothing to do with road car engines being built like race car engines.
Otherwise, it'll just be another example of BMW's marketing department being too powerful for its own good.
That link doesn't give me anything .... I can't see anything at all.jaskin;180566 said:
But, and engine built to `International Race Standards' is totally different from an engine built to `the grind of the CTE every day for a decade'. Race Engines have to last full rpm, with concessions for G-force oil transfer (dry sump solution), for like a few hundred km between rebuilds. And you have to build it as light as possible, and it is a sin to over-engineer the engine for fear of being too heavy. And it's supposed to break at the end of the race with some leeway of course.
Road car engines are pretty different. If a road car engine were built like a race car engine, you'd not have a very good deal, IMHO. The Carrera GT reputedly had some serious work done to it before the Le Mans engine could be certified to road car use.
So I guess the article you pointed me to has got nothing to do with road car engines being built like race car engines.
Otherwise, it'll just be another example of BMW's marketing department being too powerful for its own good.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: The BMW Brand
But... don't we all write for a living? Especially nowadays?
edit: I saw his profile picture. Seems like Shaun - either he's a racer or a race engineer. Nice to be in knowledgeable company!
As an abstract of it all, you could say that I write for a living. I decided to type fast before I was ten years old, and since then have increased my speed to outperform any secretary I ever had.jaskin;180568 said:
But... don't we all write for a living? Especially nowadays?
edit: I saw his profile picture. Seems like Shaun - either he's a racer or a race engineer. Nice to be in knowledgeable company!
Re: The BMW Brand
I thoroughly enjoyed the discussions so far. Very interesting and argumentative.
caySman
You seem to be implying that BMW car owners are more of the victims of commercialization and marketing propaganda. Seriously, I dont see why that has to be bluntly critized.
I mean, we all are victims of modern marketing in everyday life. What other car manufacturers can't achive to beat BMW's high volumes in luxury automobile n profitability in recent years are attributed to their own problems. It's free competition out there and the stronger you are, the easier you survive. After all, even if u argue that BMW cars are not exactly superior to some of their Japanese counterparts like Lexus (quoting the electronics control system Denso u mentioned above ), the fact remains to be seen and transparently reflected in the desirability of BMW ownership.
It's difficult to educate the masses as to what is good and what is bad. There is no definite solution to it. People make choices, lived by what they hv chosen. Human beings should be able to stomach their own regrets.
Now talking bout Porsche....I 'd love to really own a Porsche some day. To me, it's the best sports car in the world. Period. I have driven (and test driven) a few Japanese cars and contis in the past and I am still very much convinced of how good the driving feel of BMW is. Again, we should compare cars of similar classes (not fair to say driving RS4 feels so much better vs driving E92 335 ). IMO, BMW's brand claim as a driver car is really their legacy and strength.
I agreed with you about M3 being somewhat a compromise car. However, I think the word compromise here is loosely ridiculed. I think its better described as a car with "complete package". U want the power, u got it. U want the space, u got it. U want the convenience and daily drivability, u got it. U want the class, u got it. What else is missing here? Let's not forget bout the fact that the S54 engine won 6 yrs in a row for best International Engine. The new S65 motor in M5/M6 is already getting international accolade too.
I hv said before in other thread that the only sour thing bout M3 in Singapore is the pricing. Else, it's truly one of the best sports cars out there and like it or not, let me proudly say that it's still the industry benchmark for front engine RWD category in the world of automobile.
Cheers
I thoroughly enjoyed the discussions so far. Very interesting and argumentative.
caySman
You seem to be implying that BMW car owners are more of the victims of commercialization and marketing propaganda. Seriously, I dont see why that has to be bluntly critized.
I mean, we all are victims of modern marketing in everyday life. What other car manufacturers can't achive to beat BMW's high volumes in luxury automobile n profitability in recent years are attributed to their own problems. It's free competition out there and the stronger you are, the easier you survive. After all, even if u argue that BMW cars are not exactly superior to some of their Japanese counterparts like Lexus (quoting the electronics control system Denso u mentioned above ), the fact remains to be seen and transparently reflected in the desirability of BMW ownership.
It's difficult to educate the masses as to what is good and what is bad. There is no definite solution to it. People make choices, lived by what they hv chosen. Human beings should be able to stomach their own regrets.
Now talking bout Porsche....I 'd love to really own a Porsche some day. To me, it's the best sports car in the world. Period. I have driven (and test driven) a few Japanese cars and contis in the past and I am still very much convinced of how good the driving feel of BMW is. Again, we should compare cars of similar classes (not fair to say driving RS4 feels so much better vs driving E92 335 ). IMO, BMW's brand claim as a driver car is really their legacy and strength.
I agreed with you about M3 being somewhat a compromise car. However, I think the word compromise here is loosely ridiculed. I think its better described as a car with "complete package". U want the power, u got it. U want the space, u got it. U want the convenience and daily drivability, u got it. U want the class, u got it. What else is missing here? Let's not forget bout the fact that the S54 engine won 6 yrs in a row for best International Engine. The new S65 motor in M5/M6 is already getting international accolade too.
I hv said before in other thread that the only sour thing bout M3 in Singapore is the pricing. Else, it's truly one of the best sports cars out there and like it or not, let me proudly say that it's still the industry benchmark for front engine RWD category in the world of automobile.
Cheers
foxfrc5
Well-Known Member
Re: The BMW Brand
Getting back on topic, according to LTA stats at the end of last year, BMW was the 8th most popular make in Singapore, behind Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai (!), Mitsubishi, Mercedes and Mazda.
There were over 25,000 Mercs at that time, versus just over 16,500 BMWs. Unfortunately we don't have a breakdown of Lexus within the Toyota number.
I guess the numbers bear testament to BMW's success in the local market, regardless of whether this success was fuelled by marketing kudos, engineering strengths, perceptions of exclusivity etc.
The bottom line is that we all love our cars, and a lot of us here love our BMWs. Whether we start switching to other makes will depend on what BMW can roll out, but yes, I do agree that the new C class will be a contender. I especially like the Avantgarde model with the mock-ironic (at least in my mind) pseudo-SL front grille. But my memories of the first gen C class being the most boring car I ever owned (it felt very "GM", if you know what I mean) may stop me from going back to Mercedes, at least for now.
Getting back on topic, according to LTA stats at the end of last year, BMW was the 8th most popular make in Singapore, behind Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai (!), Mitsubishi, Mercedes and Mazda.
There were over 25,000 Mercs at that time, versus just over 16,500 BMWs. Unfortunately we don't have a breakdown of Lexus within the Toyota number.
I guess the numbers bear testament to BMW's success in the local market, regardless of whether this success was fuelled by marketing kudos, engineering strengths, perceptions of exclusivity etc.
The bottom line is that we all love our cars, and a lot of us here love our BMWs. Whether we start switching to other makes will depend on what BMW can roll out, but yes, I do agree that the new C class will be a contender. I especially like the Avantgarde model with the mock-ironic (at least in my mind) pseudo-SL front grille. But my memories of the first gen C class being the most boring car I ever owned (it felt very "GM", if you know what I mean) may stop me from going back to Mercedes, at least for now.
centurion
Well-Known Member
Re: The BMW Brand
Sigh...
NO! I drive a compromise car. A pretty beefy compromise car but a compromise car nevertheless. I am in the market for a purer driver's car though, but that has to be met with well negotiated approvals from all the usual suspects.foxfrc5;180626 said:
Sigh...
