The BMW Brand

Re: The BMW Brand

Hi TripleM,

When I wrote my posts in this thread, I assumed that most of the owners were not going to be emotionally attached to the brand, because of the nature of the thread.

I apologise that I've caused any hurt. All my posts are IMHO only, I do not profess any other knowledge other than what I have personally experienced, and some sweeping statements I made should be taken with a pinch of salt.

One thing I feel strongly though -`INTERNATIONAL ACCOLADES' are made by a committee of people each with their own agendas. There could not be a more compromised and meaningless thing than an international accolade. I would rather believe a bunch of poor writers in a forum rather than a `crafted' international accolade.
 
Re: The BMW Brand

imho any car with this badge on is good enough for me.

i would like to buy a porsche or a ferrari but money not enough due to government taxation.

in the us i can buy a ferrari with the amount of money i paid for my e90 here.

blood sucker island.
 
Re: The BMW Brand

Shaun;180563 said:
Yes a better atomized fuel mass will mean a cooler more well mixed charge that will resist knock better. The heat reduction won't be any greater specifically in the cylinder head area for this reason though. It will be because the fuel is directed back up toward the head and even then, with standard injection, the piston (which is the other major surface of the cylinder) is kept very cool by the fuel concentration right above it and for a long time. The majority of knock resistance IMO comes from burning most of the fuel mass close to the plug. If there is no fuel in the edges of the cylinder, then there is nothing to burn, no origin for a second front. The DI jet also induces turbulence in the cylinder, which aids knock resistance to a point. Standard port injection in itself does not induce turbulence.

Sorry for the OT.

to be honest,i am very impressed.you must be a rocket scientist on vacation from NASA.or a professor from MIT.
 
Re: The BMW Brand

caySman;180322 said:
For ROAD cars, BMW has committed the sin of outsourcing all electronics engineering to 3rd parties, especially Robert Bosch. Their mechanical engineering teams are still intact, and thriving, but the volume of their cars cannot match people like Toyota (nobody can) who can throw 2 billion dollars into the development of their V6 engines with incredible complexity and reliability. Because their volume is way smaller, the amount of cash they can plonk in is way less than Toyota, because the justification is less.

It is fortunate that BMW can sell their cars for more cash, but so can Toyota, for the first time, the Lexus brand is now are more expensive than BMW for the same spec. This is a further blow to their engineering teams.

BMW's main focus is on lightening their cars, and that is something which the other germans have not been doing, but LIGHT cars don't sell easily - witness Jaguar XJ, XK, Audi A2, TT2 ... it's hard to sell `lightness' as a feature to the uninformed masses.

And BMW marketing rarely sells to the informed hardcore enthusiast masses, relying more on the pseudo informed masses. The market has been taken by Subaru and Mitsubishi, with the incumbent still strong - Porsche. And these have long been on the `lightness' thing.

A hiadee of mine, named Michael Tan, once told me the same:)
 
Re: The BMW Brand

caySman;180465 said:
Yes, BMW has you to think that their engines great, which they are, just that relative to the best engines from the rest, they aren't heads and shoulders above.

Toyota/Lexus has an undeniable advantage over all the Germans, in that they control their electronic destiny - Denso. Denso is 100% owned by Toyota and it is the leader in automotive electronics now, when even Ford has started to use it in preference to Delphi Automotive electronics. I was pretty surprised.

Electronics is all important as major advances today are only possible because of the electronics. For example, Toyota's new direct/indirect gas injection engines require such careful and complicated electronic control, plus incredible machining technology for the head, while BMW, relying on Robert Bosch, cannot innovate this way. So BMW relies on simpler technology, like Valvetronic, while very elegant, cannot achieve the incredible torque curve of some Toyota engines like their new 3.5L which is today's best mainstream engine among all. Moreover, Valvetronic does not give the advantage of heat reduction which DI gives - and now, this `side effect' of heat reduction has become the main reason why DI is great.

Valvetronic also suffers from a engineer's crisis of confidence, as it relies on a electromechanical acutator - a motor, which is inherently a scary thing, for the main `throttle control'. Why BMW did it was presumably to bypass the Direct Injection patent issue, but the inherent confidence crisis on Valvetronic motors has caused BMW's new cars to use DI instead. That's a few hundred million dollars of R&D down the drain.

I read in this forum last night, and there is a certain poster which mentioned that BMW has to rely on inline 6 cylinder engines not as a technical point, but as a marketing reason. I agree to a large extent. That's why, I said, that BMW's marketing has to take a back seat to engineering now, just for the next generation of engines and concepts for BMW to continue to innovate without the ill-founded shackles of marketing.

All this lengthy discourse, is to mention, that BMW is a victim of its incredibly successful marketing and also shackled by its brand reputation. It's a good problem, but BMW must handle this now. Their surge in sales the last 2 years has suddenly stopped. I suspect that this is because BMW is the `EXECUTIVE'S NICE CAR DURING UNCERTAIN TIMES' and the last 2 years have been rather tentative. The economy this year should be confident enough for high execs to buy a step up BMW, like a Porsche, Maserati, and the new M3 and old M5 should be a bust at least in `confident economy' countries like Singapore, Hong Kong and Dubai. Also, the M3 and M5 are compromise cars, and a `confident economy' might permit many prospective customers in this segment to buy `no compromise' cars, 2 of them or more.

Suddenly, the BMW brand has become boring. The M3 has become a V8 instead of a I6 traditionally, and that's the end of an era. The M5 is ageing, with no successor near, and their engine has no hybrid successor in sight to lend the endless torque of an electric motor. Their M coupe, Z4 Coupe, are much lesser machines than the Cayman S and Cayman. Their Z4 pales in comparison to the new Boxster and Boxster S. Their 7-series faces threats from the excellent hybrid Lexus LS. Their 5-series is ageing now, but gracefully, and will maintain a good revenue stream for BMW, but the 5 isn't exactly a halo.

Which leaves us the 3 series. The most imminent threat of the IS series has struck, and the upcoming Mercedes C-Class with Toyota-style quality controls is poised to strike it further - and this time, seems that the C-Class 3rd generation strike is incredibly strong. Even I would consider a Merc now if I were in this class of car. The new quality controls will make the C-Class EXCELLENT.

And as with the 3-coupe, currently the leader of the band being the 335i which the poster called elmariachi is buying, it is without peer. The new CLK will be at least 1.5 years off. The Audi has failed. Lexus has no such competitor. Porsche Panamericana is a weird animal, not here yet, and otherwise Porsche has no competitor. So it leaves the 3-coupe to uphold BMW's honor, and it will. Except the M3 of course, I expect it to fail - since this year, the people who can afford an M3 to consider the excellent 911 997 and ... surprise ... Mitsu Evo X and Subaru WRX STI - just because there is no more need to compromise in a hot economy.

Let's just see whether my mad ravings will come to fruition.

Elmariachi has a hiadee on Carmaforum called Michael Tan whom he 'rub shoulders with' very so often. :)

I wish Michael Tan could come back to this forum bcos I miss him so much, but with your presence that feeling had dimished somewhat:smack:
 
Re: The BMW Brand

caySman;180656 said:
NO! I drive a compromise car. A pretty beefy compromise car but a compromise car nevertheless. I am in the market for a purer driver's car though, but that has to be met with well negotiated approvals from all the usual suspects.
Sigh...

Thats ok man. I also drive a compromise car. I may change my car. Do you think a Lexus GS300 is good in your opinion ? :)
 
Re: The BMW Brand

caySman;180656 said:
NO! I drive a compromise car. A pretty beefy compromise car but a compromise car nevertheless. I am in the market for a purer driver's car though, but that has to be met with well negotiated approvals from all the usual suspects.
Sigh...
"There is no substitute"... have fun shopping.
 
Re: The BMW Brand

Ahbengdriver;180678 said:
A hiadee of mine, named Michael Tan, once told me the same:)
He's a close acquaintance of mine. I'm psychoing him to get a new car right now. He's pretty bored with his current ride. Actually I'm here merely because I heard about this forum from him, was pretty amused about his writing here, and his getting banned.

But I really don't know what `hiadee' means.

Regarding what I write being similar to what Michael would have written, if Paul Horrell, Jeremy Clarkson, Csabe Csere, Peter Egan, LJK Setright and a whole host of those old automotive hacks were to write in this forum, the ideas would also be pretty similar though the writing would be more engaging. At the very worst, one might say I'm merely rehashing their ideas here. There's pretty much nothing original in automotive domain anymore, except bitchin' about dealers, the classic wars between fanboys, HP vs Torque, Toyota winning, Mercedes quality going downhill, `I love my car' et cetera. And of course, news.
 
Re: The BMW Brand

Ahbengdriver;180682 said:
Thats ok man. I also drive a compromise car. I may change my car. Do you think a Lexus GS300 is good in your opinion ? :)
From a 7- there's a whole host of cars you might want to change to, why the GS300? It's been out for some time, as boring as your present car, with styling as controversial as your 7 .... unless you've given up on driving life, that is. If you were upgrading from a 3- it would be understandable, but from a 7- to a GS is not really quite a real change in perspective, don't you think? There are no more boring switches, other than from a Lancer to a VIOS to a Altis to a Rio to a ... you get what I mean, entire populations do that, but they don't have a choice and you do.

Why not split your 7 into 2 cars, a cheap 2nd hand MPV and a interesting 2 seater coupe, like the Z4M Coupe, Cayman S, Audi TT 3.0 S-Tronic Quattro, or for even a bigger challenge, a 2nd hand 993, 996 ? Just don't get any tip versions, save the Audi which the local representative has omitted to bring in any manuals, a pity as the DSG in all current implementations is such a BORING flick of the paddle. Strike off the Audi. (borrowed from mike's plan)

Of course, if money is not so much an issue even at this level, go for the 997+new MPV directly and dreamthings like that. But then it would not so much be a topic of discussion.
 
Re: The BMW Brand

caySman;180743 said:
From a 7- there's a whole host of cars you might want to change to, why the GS300? It's been out for some time, as boring as your present car, with styling as controversial as your 7 .... unless you've given up on driving life, that is. If you were upgrading from a 3- it would be understandable, but from a 7- to a GS is not really quite a real change in perspective, don't you think? There are no more boring switches, other than from a Lancer to a VIOS to a Altis to a Rio to a ... you get what I mean, entire populations do that, but they don't have a choice and you do.

Why not split your 7 into 2 cars, a cheap 2nd hand MPV and a interesting 2 seater coupe, like the Z4M Coupe, Cayman S, Audi TT 3.0 S-Tronic Quattro, or for even a bigger challenge, a 2nd hand 993, 996 ? Just don't get any tip versions, save the Audi which the local representative has omitted to bring in any manuals, a pity as the DSG in all current implementations is such a BORING flick of the paddle. Strike off the Audi. (borrowed from mike's plan)

Of course, if money is not so much an issue even at this level, go for the 997+new MPV directly and dreamthings like that. But then it would not so much be a topic of discussion.

errr..thks u n BTW i dont drive a 7-er. its a 7 divided by 2 minus 0.5 :)
 
Re: The BMW Brand

Eh? Why go for a GS300 when you can get a 325 coupe for about the same money? OK, the 325 will always remind you that it's no 335, but it's still a hell of a lot better than the whale-like GS300.

By the way, I have test-driven both the Cayman S and the 335. I felt that the 335 was actually faster than the Cayman. The Cayman is mid-engined, true. But after you spec it to the same level as the 335, it is nearly 100K more expensive. It may be better --- maybe --- but it's sure as hell not *that* much better. Anyone who gets the Cayman is paying 100K for the brand. I don't necessarily dismiss that kind of thing --- after all, a WRX is plenty fast too, but I wouldn't be seen dead even looking at that horrible piece of crap with its tacky gold wheels. But if you are going to pay 100K just for image, you ought to be aware that that is what you are doing.

The 335 has done wonders for the BMW image. They can build seriously good cars. They just need to pay more attention to design. Look at what Audi has done --- the TT has a pathetic 200 hp, is front wheel drive, and can still sell well even at the ridiculous price they are asking for locally. BMW is lucky that Mercedes is so useless and that Lexus doesn't do sporty.
 
Re: The BMW Brand

foxfrc5;180459 said:
I always thought that BMW has great engines, especially the creamy smooth 6 cylinder ones. At the same price point here for an entry-level 6 cylinder BMW (323i or 523i), you probably couldn't get as good an engine from competitors' cars.

That comment in the paper about "black BMW drivers" had me laughing, especially since, if viewed grammatically, it's pretty racist... Hah.

Your comments about Lexus are spot on. Lexus is definitely the biggest threat to BMW right now, more so than Audi and Merc.

I beg to disagree about price point and entry level I-6's. I prefer the Is250 engine to the 323 or 325 I recently tested. Uncanny refinement, outstanding economy in consumption, and yet sounds good. The 325 may be a little faster though, but the 323 feels much slower.

On the other hand, my Bmw I6 has its charms too. Its always there, in the foreground; makes more noise than it is actually fast, pretty poor low end torque, vibrates at idle, but sopranos as it picks up second wind and rushes to the redline! Its a gorgous soundI. Sadly 7.5-8 km/l is unfashionable these days. My heavier IS easily betters 10 km/l.

The other day i parked next to a new white coloured 6 series. Wow!
 
Re: The BMW Brand

Ahbengdriver;180763 said:
errr..thks u n BTW i dont drive a 7-er. its a 7 divided by 2 minus 0.5 :)

Well, maybe its nice to have a change from time to time? I regularly swap between bimmer and lexus. I think the sportiness of the bimmer is fun, but the stealtheness of the lexus is deeply addictive. Its a different kind of fun, but no less fun.
 
Re: The BMW Brand

Ahbengdriver;180763 said:
errr..thks u n BTW i dont drive a 7-er. its a 7 divided by 2 minus 0.5 :)
GAH! Reading your old posts sort of made me think you have a Seven. From an 325 to a GS300? Makes sense if you want a more sedate car with a lot of power smoothly delivered like silk, but not if you want a more interesting car. That V6 engine is the smoothest animal around, but therein lies the fault with the GS. It's too perfect.
 
Re: The BMW Brand

opvaulet;180797 said:
Well, maybe its nice to have a change from time to time? I regularly swap between bimmer and lexus. I think the sportiness of the bimmer is fun, but the stealtheness of the lexus is deeply addictive. Its a different kind of fun, but no less fun.
I don't know what Lexus you have, but on the GS300 there's this POWER button which mainly affects the transmission which transforms the car greatly. Also, the 2007 series all come with the dual injection engine which gives better bottom end torque.

Which brings us to the point - if you get a 5- or a lesser 7- might as well get the GS, it's a way better engine objectively though lacking the slightly `badboy' rattle and sound of the BMW I6. But if you're going for passion and excitement, might as well do the Z4 Coupe (both M and 3.0SI), Cayman S, etc.

Suipalucsea: As for the Cayman S vs 335i, it is incomprehensible to compare the 2. The 335i's dualturbo smoothens the bottom end, that gives you the illusion that the 335 is faster, but at the high end, how can anybody even compare the 2? The ferocity of the 3.4 F6 is way more exciting than the 3.0 turbo I6, the very nature of the turbo blunts the responses of the otherwise excellent engine. At the very worst perspective, the 335i turbo I6 like a limo engine now. Just like the Lexus. (not actually, this one is a lot more meat than the 3L toyota engine. A BETTER limo engine than the Toyota engine.)

In any case, the engine is least of matters. You have tried both. Do you seriously think that the mid-engined setup and the flat 6 is for nothing? Did you think the suspension tuning was for nothing? Did the cayman not fill you with sensuous pleasure every corner you took in the tiptronic tester?
 
Re: The BMW Brand

BMW, in my op, is THE only car brand that has completely suceeded in establishing, extending and perpetuating its BRAND image, differentiating itself above the rest.

No other car brand, it would seem, has been as successful in captivating the widest spectrum of consumer appeal and thus, it is no wonder that a BM has become a very coveted brand (albeit a slight tendancy for it to be classified as a snob-appeal product). Probably only happens here owing to the astronomical cost of cars.. but certainly not in other countries...

BRANDING reigns....

atchung!!!
 
Re: The BMW Brand

Err. What about Mercedes Benz? They have an image they don't even justify with product, not in the slightest way (save the CLS, CL and S). And the prices are even more astronomical.
 
Re: The BMW Brand

Blitzer;180844 said:
BMW, in my op, is THE only car brand that has completely suceeded in establishing, extending and perpetuating its BRAND image, differentiating itself above the rest.

No other car brand, it would seem, has been as successful in captivating the widest spectrum of consumer appeal and thus, it is no wonder that a BM has become a very coveted brand (albeit a slight tendancy for it to be classified as a snob-appeal product). Probably only happens here owing to the astronomical cost of cars.. but certainly not in other countries...

BRANDING reigns....

atchung!!!

Thats the strange thing I dont quite understand. maybe bcos I am not a marketing person. One of the staff in my company got to dept head n she tolg me its time to change her 5 year old car honda accord. She told me that day "I have to get a BMW 523i".

Branding?
 
Re: The BMW Brand

caySman;180836 said:
I don't know what Lexus you have, but on the GS300 there's this POWER button which mainly affects the transmission which transforms the car greatly. Also, the 2007 series all come with the dual injection engine which gives better bottom end torque.

Which brings us to the point - if you get a 5- or a lesser 7- might as well get the GS, it's a way better engine objectively though lacking the slightly `badboy' rattle and sound of the BMW I6. But if you're going for passion and excitement, might as well do the Z4 Coupe (both M and 3.0SI), Cayman S, etc.

Yes, I use the power mode, but recently found that paddles are great fun too. Only problem is the need to select gear display because sometimes its a little hard to tell which gear its in. Some of my friends are removing engine covers etc, just to hear a little more. But i am getting better at it. With the drastic diff between the two modes I suspect its more than just a transmission thing. The DI is great, fuel efficiency is outstanding.

However, I am quite smitten by a 630i....and its only 25kgs heavier than a 3!! Visually for me its the only Bangle that works.
 

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