Trackcars / Racecars

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Actually it's very easy to eliminate discussion. As organizer, just state something like.. "Based on our subjective judgement, we will not admit any prototype or formula based car, windscreenless cars etc. no matter what Only road cars allowed. Much as we would like to discuss detail, there is no time. This decision is final. " Done!

On the other hand if reasons (spins, crashes, red flag, fatality, etc.) are given and they seem illogical in some ways to different people, and case by case consideration is offered, then expect some discussion.

Cheers all

 

[Racebred]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

I'm just going to break ranks for a bit and give my personal view, and not as the organiser of this track day.

Personally, I feel if the proportion of the car is not too invisible, and it's not so much of a hazard to other trackkies, why not. I remember many years back there was a very very heated debate within TCC, on the SR3. Many people didnt want it coz of visibility and speed differential. And the fact that there was a video clip of it weaving through other cars like they were standing still didnt help it much. I reckoned it was doing about 2.20+, when in that era the majority of the field was doing 240+. Radicals were eventually banned. So you can see some similarities here, and so I understand.

The other major point is red flag. A car red flags the track if it gets beached (which is equal probability for any other car. Coz it's the driver that beaches the car, not the car). Red flags also happen when it is a car that stalls easily. The SR3 comes to mind. That, simply, is not fair to the others. Other cars have not really demonstrated that they are so unreliable that they cause a red flag stoppage all the time.

As for Atoms driven by some malaysian pro driver, that keeps spinning out, I feel that existing rules in Sepang can already take care of that. A trackkie that spins out all the time (regardless of car make) should get complained about, and black flagged. Either warned, or banned for that whole session.

As for car giving crash protection to the driver, I think it's the driver's perogative, and his decision, when he decides to track a particular make.

So based on the above that I spoke about, I only have beef on one point: causing too many red flags by a bad car design.

But remember this is me from a personal point of view. As the organiser, I have my views, but they are also balanced with what the majority of regular trackkies will feel. If we can establish that most of us regular trackkies will want or not want something, I'll go ahead and organise accordingly, coz simply this is a track day for the community. If its up to me as a singular decision maker, I'll allow the atom but not the sr3, but it's not.

 

[Racebred]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

so anyways, I think we can discuss about this matter..

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

yay so atom can, then 2-11 can lah!

joking joking

(shaun still trying) lol

 

[discom]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

ken u steady, respect.

i guess its very difficult for organisers to bend n sway. too many variants to try n justify. dun think its fair to make them explain every single car. whether TC or not. open top, soft top no top etc.

everyone wants an explanation why their cars can or cannot be allowed. its tough as it is organising a TD. lets not make things too difficult for these guys. once an exception is given, some others will come along...soon we will have camels on the track.

Thanks Jeremy for the props.

I guess I would rather go to a track day where everyone feels good than one where some may resent my presence.

But I am monitoring this thread hoping that things may change though

 

[discom]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

I'm just going to break ranks for a bit and give my personal view, and not as the organiser of this track day.

Personally, I feel if the proportion of the car is not too invisible, and it's not so much of a hazard to other trackkies, why not. I remember many years back there was a very very heated debate within TCC, on the SR3. Many people didnt want it coz of visibility and speed differential. And the fact that there was a video clip of it weaving through other cars like they were standing still didnt help it much. I reckoned it was doing about 2.20+, when in that era the majority of the field was doing 240+. Radicals were eventually banned. So you can see some similarities here, and so I understand.

The other major point is red flag. A car red flags the track if it gets beached (which is equal probability for any other car. Coz it's the driver that beaches the car, not the car). Red flags also happen when it is a car that stalls easily. The SR3 comes to mind. That, simply, is not fair to the others. Other cars have not really demonstrated that they are so unreliable that they cause a red flag stoppage all the time.

As for Atoms driven by some malaysian pro driver, that keeps spinning out, I feel that existing rules in Sepang can already take care of that. A trackkie that spins out all the time (regardless of car make) should get complained about, and black flagged. Either warned, or banned for that whole session.

As for car giving crash protection to the driver, I think it's the driver's perogative, and his decision, when he decides to track a particular make.

So based on the above that I spoke about, I only have beef on one point: causing too many red flags by a bad car design.

But remember this is me from a personal point of view. As the organiser, I have my views, but they are also balanced with what the majority of regular trackkies will feel. If we can establish that most of us regular trackkies will want or not want something, I'll go ahead and organise accordingly, coz simply this is a track day for the community. If its up to me as a singular decision maker, I'll allow the atom but not the sr3, but it's not.

Aiya...you are just bias cos you got a taxi ride in my Ariel

But seriously, thanks for the vote of confidence for the Atom.

I seriously think that the Atom will fare quite well in a side swipe or T-bone. The Ariel's frame is made of pretty sturdy tubing. And it has a sturdy roll bar too, combined with a four point harness, I think that in a roll over situation, the Ariel is as safe as any convertible or even safer because the the four point harness.

And to be honest, the Ariel is not that small. I would think that most people will be able to see it from far.

Hopefully over time, more people will share your personal views and the Ariel will be allowed to join you guys

Anyways, my friend cannot go for this TD, so I have to give it a miss too.

Hope you all have a safe TD and all make it back in the cars they went up in

 

[Racebred]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Also, personally I do not see any difference between the 2-11 and other loti. If it does come to a vote, I'll have no problems with these cars.

 

[ryan]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Safety wise - I think all cars, race cars if not invisible are fine as per what Shawn has mentioned. Besides that, if you track - you generally are more aware on what's going around you. Race cars etc can take a wider berth and take more initiative on track . A car T-boning you and you running sideways into gravel and flipping are pretty much the same case of "you're screwed anyway" and that happens regardless of cars. IMO if they are not too different, so IMO the faster car and driver should be the one who should always take the bigger precaution.

So...what's the difference between a open-roof lotus 2-11, Atom vs a s2000, Z4, MX5 or Copen? Drivers in those cars will equally suffer in some bad way if a GTR (or insert-any-1.7 tonne or more car) smacks into them at 180km/hr. A rollover would equally well, equally spoil someone's day.

I am good with Atoms and 2-11s and cars which don't spoil the experience for everyone else on TD or have extremely large speed margin differentials.

 

[precurser]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Safety wise - I think all cars, race cars if not invisible are fine as per what Shawn has mentioned. Besides that, if you track - you generally are more aware on what's going around you. Race cars etc can take a wider berth and take more initiative on track . A car T-boning you and you running sideways into gravel and flipping are pretty much the same case of "you're screwed anyway" and that happens regardless of cars. IMO if they are not too different, so IMO the faster car and driver should be the one who should always take the bigger precaution.

So...what's the difference between a open-roof lotus 2-11, Atom vs a s2000, Z4, MX5 or Copen? Drivers in those cars will equally suffer in some bad way if a GTR (or insert-any-1.7 tonne or more car) smacks into them at 180km/hr. A rollover would equally well, equally spoil someone's day.

I am good with Atoms and 2-11s and cars which don't spoil the experience for everyone else on TD or have extremely large speed margin differentials.

Touche. Exactly my point.

Oh well.

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

why cant everybody be like Discom and just accept that rules r rules? join a TD that people welcome better than joining one that don;t right? I think the organisers set the rules with one purpose in mind - SAFETY. the secondary issues are the red lights etc...

if you wanna force it, maybe take a vote for the next track day.. that wud be best. the majority involved will make that democratic decision. As it is, its not ez booking the damn track and getting people involved with theor own money. shall we just end this discusssion until tomorrow's trackday is over. its very distracting now to expect organisers to flip flop at the last minute.

if 2-11 approve...radical will soon come up with its own list of plus points. then soon we will have a bicycle on track. i will bring my son's aprica pram.

 

[ryan]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

why cant everybody be like Discom and just accept that rules r rules? join a TD that people welcome better than joining one that don;t right? I think the organisers set the rules with one purpose in mind - SAFETY. the secondary issues are the red lights etc...

if you wanna force it, maybe take a vote for the next track day.. that wud be best. the majority involved will make that democratic decision. As it is, its not ez booking the damn track and getting people involved with theor own money. shall we just end this discusssion until tomorrow's trackday is over. its very distracting now to expect organisers to flip flop at the last minute.

if 2-11 approve...radical will soon come up with its own list of plus points. then soon we will have a bicycle on track. i will bring my son's aprica pram.

Jem - the TD rules shouldnt' change for tomorrow since it's already set by the organizers and largely, they make the ultimate call. BTW - Thanks Jack and Shawn for taking time to make each TD session awesome. It's really appreciated.

Well, this thread turned into a feedback thread which for future considerations can be implemented..

See you all tomorrow!

 

[ryan]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

why cant everybody be like Discom and just accept that rules r rules? join a TD that people welcome better than joining one that don;t right? I think the organisers set the rules with one purpose in mind - SAFETY. the secondary issues are the red lights etc...

if you wanna force it, maybe take a vote for the next track day.. that wud be best. the majority involved will make that democratic decision. As it is, its not ez booking the damn track and getting people involved with theor own money. shall we just end this discusssion until tomorrow's trackday is over. its very distracting now to expect organisers to flip flop at the last minute.

if 2-11 approve...radical will soon come up with its own list of plus points. then soon we will have a bicycle on track. i will bring my son's aprica pram.

Jem - the TD rules shouldnt' change for tomorrow since it's already set by the organizers and largely, they make the ultimate call. BTW - Thanks Jack and Shawn for taking time to make each TD session awesome. It's really appreciated.

Well, this thread turned into a feedback thread which for future considerations can be implemented..

See you all tomorrow!

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

i hv an idea. maybe we can ask everybody at the track tomorrow to tick some boxes.

we can be specific with these 3 cars first.

will you want to be on a track with a

radical with no traction control yes/no
atom with no traction control yes/no
2-11 with traction control yes/no

 

[slowman]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

... I remember many years back there was a very very heated debate within TCC, on the SR3. ... Radicals were eventually banned.

They must have reversed the ban. At last Friday's TCC track day, there was a Radical as well as an Atom and a track-only civic from Driven. There had been 2-11s in the past too.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

i hv an idea. maybe we can ask everybody at the track tomorrow to tick some boxes.

we can be specific with these 3 cars first.

will you want to be on a track with a

radical with no traction control yes/no
atom with no traction control yes/no
2-11 with traction control yes/no

that would be cool, except there are issues beyond TC like restart difficulty etc.

and yes the discussion actually isn't for 22nd trackday, but beyond... it would be too last minute to catch 22nd, so no one was expecting that, certainly not me

 

[TripleM]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Thks guys

Think it's healthy discussion. Compared to previous years, this year sees the least involvement of myself as far as organising the trackdays. This is because I organise trackdays for another club.

I have to thank Racebred for his willingness to come back and he's done very good job. Then the support from some of you enthusiasts certainly makes each and every track day possible.

I shall leave it to Racebred and Ryan to determine what's best for the community. If we hv to vote, then we do it, unanimously.

We enjoy good reputation so let's keep that momentum going.

See you guys tomorrow

Jack

 

[totoseow]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

ya maybe someone can come out with a questionaire. its important that majority agrees.maybe every new car will be put to a vote etc.

im reluctant to call an online vote...cos some non trackies will vote and that becomes irrelevant. hv to be there to understand i guess

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

online voting can be set such that the name is listed next to the vote and non-tracker votes can be disregarded

 

[Racebred]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

Allow me to reiterate a point I have previously made. This is in regards to traction control:

The point about traction control cars being favoured, is that they do not spin out easily and be a safety hazard or cause red flags.

996GT3s (which are attending this td) do not have it. Many people (including myself) routinely switch them off even if the car is equipped with it. Cars with TC can also spin out.

The existing track behaviour rules already provides for it. Any car, regardless of equipment or make, that keeps spinning out and obstructing or stopping the track, will be black flagged anyways.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Trackcars / Racecars

the thing about black flag is that it doesn't really recover any of the lost time/money for the 30-50 people waiting around in the pits... so I think a big fine is still helpful