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Volker Racing Spark Plugs
- Thread starter yendor
- Start date
yendor
Well-Known Member
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
Shaun
In a cyclic engine, the spark is introduced as a particular time of the piston travel (usually 10-40 degrees before TDC) With conventional plugs, the large electrode area and differing dielectric properties of the fuel/air charge causes differences on ionisation voltages that allows the spark to occur. This differing voltages causes some finite time lags as the coil output is a ramp voltage that has a finite rate of increase. This increase will cause inaccuracy of of firing and thus cyl 1 may not produce the exact same pressures as cyl 3, 4 or 2. Thus in a high performance engine, you take individual measurements of cylinder pressures and fuel ratios and adjust accordingily to give maximum power.
Plugs with lower ionisation voltages allow the spark to fire lower in the voltage output ramp waveform thus leading to accurate commencement of firing and longer spark duration. The volker plugs have the iridium tip like the NGK and ND plugs but have an additional platinium tip on the ground side to lower the ionisation voltage as the spark will always chose the shortest path. This leads to greater accuracy and better power.
Cheers
Shaun
In a cyclic engine, the spark is introduced as a particular time of the piston travel (usually 10-40 degrees before TDC) With conventional plugs, the large electrode area and differing dielectric properties of the fuel/air charge causes differences on ionisation voltages that allows the spark to occur. This differing voltages causes some finite time lags as the coil output is a ramp voltage that has a finite rate of increase. This increase will cause inaccuracy of of firing and thus cyl 1 may not produce the exact same pressures as cyl 3, 4 or 2. Thus in a high performance engine, you take individual measurements of cylinder pressures and fuel ratios and adjust accordingily to give maximum power.
Plugs with lower ionisation voltages allow the spark to fire lower in the voltage output ramp waveform thus leading to accurate commencement of firing and longer spark duration. The volker plugs have the iridium tip like the NGK and ND plugs but have an additional platinium tip on the ground side to lower the ionisation voltage as the spark will always chose the shortest path. This leads to greater accuracy and better power.
Cheers
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
Thanks very much for the explanation bro
The dielectric properties of the AF charge are fixed, so what is left to do is reduce electrode area. Going off the diagram on the Volker site, it appears that it is indeed narrower narrower and like you say has a platinum bit in the ground electrode.
At how much lower of a voltage does the Volker fire and and how long does it take a coil ouput to make up the extra voltage of a standard plug? This will give time variance (command till actual firing) with standard Bosch plugs, and what is it with Volker Iridium? With known time lag, maximum effective spark wander at a given engine speed can be calculated and tested. I can see how longer spark duration comes about but I cannot see how the ability to fire at a lower voltage makes it more accurate - aside from the narrow electrode and ground side platinum tip point above.
If I am not wrong the advantage especially in most of the engine speed range will be but a fraction of a degree. I'm not saying that the advantage does not exist but I am wondering about the magnitude of the advantage.
Perhaps a test with a healthy instead of unhealthy plugged car should be run to find actual difference between healthy standard plug and healthy Volker plug?
I hope you don't mind my musings bro.. just speaking in the interest of finding out more about these big gains.
Have a good weeekend
Thanks very much for the explanation bro
yendor said:
The dielectric properties of the AF charge are fixed, so what is left to do is reduce electrode area. Going off the diagram on the Volker site, it appears that it is indeed narrower narrower and like you say has a platinum bit in the ground electrode.
At how much lower of a voltage does the Volker fire and and how long does it take a coil ouput to make up the extra voltage of a standard plug? This will give time variance (command till actual firing) with standard Bosch plugs, and what is it with Volker Iridium? With known time lag, maximum effective spark wander at a given engine speed can be calculated and tested. I can see how longer spark duration comes about but I cannot see how the ability to fire at a lower voltage makes it more accurate - aside from the narrow electrode and ground side platinum tip point above.
If I am not wrong the advantage especially in most of the engine speed range will be but a fraction of a degree. I'm not saying that the advantage does not exist but I am wondering about the magnitude of the advantage.
Perhaps a test with a healthy instead of unhealthy plugged car should be run to find actual difference between healthy standard plug and healthy Volker plug?
I hope you don't mind my musings bro.. just speaking in the interest of finding out more about these big gains.
Have a good weeekend
yendor
Well-Known Member
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
The dielectric properties are not exactly the same. That is the problem. If there were, you will be assuming total atomisation of the fuel with air. Car manufacturers aim to mix the fuel with air as much as possible and thats where the clean injectors, port design and chanber angles come in to improve the mixing to enhance combustion.
Standard plugs typically fire at around 20-30kV (largely dependent on gap width). Thin electrode plugs fire around 5-10kV lower than this. Ignition coil produce any where from 30kV to 60kV and the rise time is in the region of 1-5us per V for 100kHz capable transistors. (dependent on the ignition amplifier's ability to shut off the supply as abruptly as possible, property of inductors, V=L x dI/dT) So for reduction of 5kV, the spark is approximately 1.5us earlier for a 40kV output coil. And yes spark wander can be tested but to be calculated, all the various parameters will need to be modelled.
A lower ionisation voltage allows the tip a greater window to for the spark to jump across the points as any more output greater than the ionisation voltage allows for the existance of the spark. Therefore with the tips providing the area for the spark to jump across, the excess coil output voltage starts the inoisation process and even though the fuel charge may be lean at the tip at that particuliar point of time, the spark can still occur.
You are right that 15hp was a really good figure and a bit hard to believe. As mentioned before, i am looking forward to measure the gains on the same platform at the same time with 3 sets of new plugs. ( Standard factory type, ND iridium and Volker) Will let you know of the results.
No worries about the questions. I just hope that it is not too much jargon for the rest of the forumers.
Cheers
The dielectric properties are not exactly the same. That is the problem. If there were, you will be assuming total atomisation of the fuel with air. Car manufacturers aim to mix the fuel with air as much as possible and thats where the clean injectors, port design and chanber angles come in to improve the mixing to enhance combustion.
Standard plugs typically fire at around 20-30kV (largely dependent on gap width). Thin electrode plugs fire around 5-10kV lower than this. Ignition coil produce any where from 30kV to 60kV and the rise time is in the region of 1-5us per V for 100kHz capable transistors. (dependent on the ignition amplifier's ability to shut off the supply as abruptly as possible, property of inductors, V=L x dI/dT) So for reduction of 5kV, the spark is approximately 1.5us earlier for a 40kV output coil. And yes spark wander can be tested but to be calculated, all the various parameters will need to be modelled.
A lower ionisation voltage allows the tip a greater window to for the spark to jump across the points as any more output greater than the ionisation voltage allows for the existance of the spark. Therefore with the tips providing the area for the spark to jump across, the excess coil output voltage starts the inoisation process and even though the fuel charge may be lean at the tip at that particuliar point of time, the spark can still occur.
You are right that 15hp was a really good figure and a bit hard to believe. As mentioned before, i am looking forward to measure the gains on the same platform at the same time with 3 sets of new plugs. ( Standard factory type, ND iridium and Volker) Will let you know of the results.
No worries about the questions. I just hope that it is not too much jargon for the rest of the forumers.
Cheers
yendor
Well-Known Member
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
Ok i get the point.
moral of the story, small raised points on the plugs allow for constant sparks that are longer in duration and more intense given the same operating conditions like ignition system, spark gap and operating voltage.
Hope this post is a little more enlightening, anybody smarter? ha ha
Cheers
Rodney
Ok i get the point.
moral of the story, small raised points on the plugs allow for constant sparks that are longer in duration and more intense given the same operating conditions like ignition system, spark gap and operating voltage.
Hope this post is a little more enlightening, anybody smarter? ha ha
Cheers
Rodney
Whisky_Tango
Core Group Members
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
installed last friday and had a few days to monitor.
Indeed the claim of 5hps were easily met at least for my car. The initial pick-up were lighter and responsive. Revs climbs to redline easily.
The car pulls much faster now.
Only problem for my plugs is the gapping. stock iridium were 0.6mm gaps and volker is 0.8mm. So there was a misfire at 3k to 4k rpm, sounded like those anti-lag system. Exhaust goes two loud bang like the 0.5 machine gun.
Rodney will change it FOC.
Cheers!
installed last friday and had a few days to monitor.
Indeed the claim of 5hps were easily met at least for my car. The initial pick-up were lighter and responsive. Revs climbs to redline easily.
The car pulls much faster now.
Only problem for my plugs is the gapping. stock iridium were 0.6mm gaps and volker is 0.8mm. So there was a misfire at 3k to 4k rpm, sounded like those anti-lag system. Exhaust goes two loud bang like the 0.5 machine gun.
Rodney will change it FOC.
Cheers!
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
I think you may have missed my point. I was not saying the dielectric properties of the AF charge cannot be changed. They definitely can be changed, but only by modification to the hardware just like you have listed. Comparing sparkplug to sparkplug, all else must be held constant - meaning there is no change to the hardware, therefore no change to the dielectric properties of the AF.
At 6500 RPM, a 6 cyl engine with square bore and stroke, with a standard rod ratio, at say 25 BTDC has its piston about 0.18 inches from TDC, travelling at 2749 ft/min, accelerating at some 2000G. Now in 0.0000015 of a second, the piston will travel another 0.0006871 ft which is 0.0082 inches. Now between 25 BTDC and 20 BTDC, the piston will have moved 0.06 inches. (0.0082/0.06) = 0.1366. 0.1366 x 5 degrees is 0.6833. So what we have is an effective 0.68 degree spark advance. This is also at redline which yields the largest degree of spark advance given this 1.5us earlier effective firing. At half redline (3250 RPM), effective spark advance is therefore 0.34 degrees. Like I said in earlier post, this is a fraction of a degree.
A 0.32 or 0.68 degree spark advance, is not going to yield 5hp, or 15hp. The gains are coming from elsewhere.. like in the case of WT's report.. the gap. Could be the longer spark duration as well as the freshness of the plugs. Perhaps a little from each. I'm just talking strictly about the firing accuracy point. As a tuner I'm sure you know that if you had a low displacement NA car on the dyno and you advanced less than a degree that the difference is very small. By the same token, if you have a car that is already set on kill, this command would have to be retarded compensate for this new level of effective advance.
The above is what I meant by calculated, holding AF properties constant.
That test will be great. Thanks very much! Like I said before, you guys are great guys who I consider friends.
Kind regards
yendor said:
I think you may have missed my point. I was not saying the dielectric properties of the AF charge cannot be changed. They definitely can be changed, but only by modification to the hardware just like you have listed. Comparing sparkplug to sparkplug, all else must be held constant - meaning there is no change to the hardware, therefore no change to the dielectric properties of the AF.
At 6500 RPM, a 6 cyl engine with square bore and stroke, with a standard rod ratio, at say 25 BTDC has its piston about 0.18 inches from TDC, travelling at 2749 ft/min, accelerating at some 2000G. Now in 0.0000015 of a second, the piston will travel another 0.0006871 ft which is 0.0082 inches. Now between 25 BTDC and 20 BTDC, the piston will have moved 0.06 inches. (0.0082/0.06) = 0.1366. 0.1366 x 5 degrees is 0.6833. So what we have is an effective 0.68 degree spark advance. This is also at redline which yields the largest degree of spark advance given this 1.5us earlier effective firing. At half redline (3250 RPM), effective spark advance is therefore 0.34 degrees. Like I said in earlier post, this is a fraction of a degree.
A 0.32 or 0.68 degree spark advance, is not going to yield 5hp, or 15hp. The gains are coming from elsewhere.. like in the case of WT's report.. the gap. Could be the longer spark duration as well as the freshness of the plugs. Perhaps a little from each. I'm just talking strictly about the firing accuracy point. As a tuner I'm sure you know that if you had a low displacement NA car on the dyno and you advanced less than a degree that the difference is very small. By the same token, if you have a car that is already set on kill, this command would have to be retarded compensate for this new level of effective advance.
The above is what I meant by calculated, holding AF properties constant.
That test will be great. Thanks very much! Like I said before, you guys are great guys who I consider friends.
Kind regards
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
Hi Eric. The gains have to be measured in a state of fault free operation. If you make good power down low and misfire up top, then it cannot be considered. If anything gap will have to be reduced which will likely reduce the gain somewhat. When there is no misfiring, re-measure the gain and that will be the gain.
Similar to if I have a monster power high compression engine that pulls like crazy down low but cannot operate above a certain RPM because of detonation, it doesn't mean that I have got the 100hp advantage. When I have compromised somewhat on compression and tuning and am making it to redline without detonation, I measure power and that power level minus the old power level is the gain.
Cheers
Whisky_Tango said:
Hi Eric. The gains have to be measured in a state of fault free operation. If you make good power down low and misfire up top, then it cannot be considered. If anything gap will have to be reduced which will likely reduce the gain somewhat. When there is no misfiring, re-measure the gain and that will be the gain.
Similar to if I have a monster power high compression engine that pulls like crazy down low but cannot operate above a certain RPM because of detonation, it doesn't mean that I have got the 100hp advantage. When I have compromised somewhat on compression and tuning and am making it to redline without detonation, I measure power and that power level minus the old power level is the gain.
Cheers
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
Forgot to mention that the engine dimensions in post 32 was for a 2.2 litre displacement, and as mentioned square cylinder geometry. The numbers will be the same for other engines of larger or smaller displacement as long as cyl geometry remains close to square, and rod ratio close to the common 1.7.
0.32 in para 3 should be 0.34, mirroring para 2.
To reiterate, I don't at all doubt there are gains. What is being discussed is magnitude of gain - and, to a certain degree, the origin(s) of gain.
=================
Stephen, you have a PM.
Forgot to mention that the engine dimensions in post 32 was for a 2.2 litre displacement, and as mentioned square cylinder geometry. The numbers will be the same for other engines of larger or smaller displacement as long as cyl geometry remains close to square, and rod ratio close to the common 1.7.
0.32 in para 3 should be 0.34, mirroring para 2.
To reiterate, I don't at all doubt there are gains. What is being discussed is magnitude of gain - and, to a certain degree, the origin(s) of gain.
=================
Stephen, you have a PM.
yendor
Well-Known Member
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
Shaun
You have missed my point that the dielectric properties of the charge can be held constant. Within the cyl, as the charge moves around, there are pockets of less fuel/more air and vice-versa. Thus there are slight changes in the dielectric properties at the spark tips prior to firing.
I agree that the advance is in the magnitude of 0.5degrees but it is the stability of firing that is the accuracy that i refer to that is in contention. When you have all cyl firing +- 0.68 degrees off center (assuming that 5kV is used as the advantage gained) power is not maximised.
I am sure in your race engines, you take individual cyl measurements when you adjust fueling. The aim if that exercise is to balance the AFRs for each cylinder to maximise longevity and torque hence power. This is similiar for ignition. There are gains by getting each cyl to fire at the exact same time. In another analogy, the std WRX exhaust manifold does not have equal length collectors compared to the STI manifold. But the STI manifold produces more power and is longer. Why? because the pressure waves arrive at the turbine at the exact same time thus maximising the spin up.
The aim of any engine tuning exercise is to balance all cyl in every aspect. Once 1 cyl is not pulling its exact weight in torque, the overall torque at the crankshaft is reduced. Manufacturers recognise this problem and are facing the issues now when emission levels get stricter and competetion to produce better power get fiercer. They now install 2 MAF sensors, use O2 sensers for each bank of cyl and have multiple knock sensors. Why? As they reach higher volumetric efficiencies, they need the accuracy.
Shaun i suggest we take this discussion offline or on PM. Don't want to go into too deep discussions and cause confusion.
No worries about the questions, I will post dyno gains as soon as i get them.
Cheers.
Shaun
You have missed my point that the dielectric properties of the charge can be held constant. Within the cyl, as the charge moves around, there are pockets of less fuel/more air and vice-versa. Thus there are slight changes in the dielectric properties at the spark tips prior to firing.
I agree that the advance is in the magnitude of 0.5degrees but it is the stability of firing that is the accuracy that i refer to that is in contention. When you have all cyl firing +- 0.68 degrees off center (assuming that 5kV is used as the advantage gained) power is not maximised.
I am sure in your race engines, you take individual cyl measurements when you adjust fueling. The aim if that exercise is to balance the AFRs for each cylinder to maximise longevity and torque hence power. This is similiar for ignition. There are gains by getting each cyl to fire at the exact same time. In another analogy, the std WRX exhaust manifold does not have equal length collectors compared to the STI manifold. But the STI manifold produces more power and is longer. Why? because the pressure waves arrive at the turbine at the exact same time thus maximising the spin up.
The aim of any engine tuning exercise is to balance all cyl in every aspect. Once 1 cyl is not pulling its exact weight in torque, the overall torque at the crankshaft is reduced. Manufacturers recognise this problem and are facing the issues now when emission levels get stricter and competetion to produce better power get fiercer. They now install 2 MAF sensors, use O2 sensers for each bank of cyl and have multiple knock sensors. Why? As they reach higher volumetric efficiencies, they need the accuracy.
Shaun i suggest we take this discussion offline or on PM. Don't want to go into too deep discussions and cause confusion.
No worries about the questions, I will post dyno gains as soon as i get them.
Cheers.
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
I feel quite sad that again discussion is quashed by fear of confusion when it should in fact lead to clarification and improved discernment for an interested consumer. A disinterested consumer will remain disinterested and uninformed no matter the level of discussion.
There are many ways of looking at things and explanation of the logic, sharing of calculation is a basic requirement for progression - seeing which set matches the results and possibilities the closest. If instead, the aim is a plain sales, then... there is no need for any of this.
There is of course a ton I have to say about what you just mentioned, along with holes in the comparison, disparity in actual change in firing accuracy/advance vs claimed gains. The concept is right, but it is the degree of effect is being IMO misrepresented, mismeasured. Sad that discussion is unwelcome, something least of all expected from you. It does no good to discuss it in private because consumers don't get to decide for themselves, whilst you are obviously already a firm believer. So this is it then.. have fun with the awesome +5hp sparkplugs. May they make it into every level of motorsport where tight tolerances, power, and longevity, are vital.
Cheers
I feel quite sad that again discussion is quashed by fear of confusion when it should in fact lead to clarification and improved discernment for an interested consumer. A disinterested consumer will remain disinterested and uninformed no matter the level of discussion.
There are many ways of looking at things and explanation of the logic, sharing of calculation is a basic requirement for progression - seeing which set matches the results and possibilities the closest. If instead, the aim is a plain sales, then... there is no need for any of this.
There is of course a ton I have to say about what you just mentioned, along with holes in the comparison, disparity in actual change in firing accuracy/advance vs claimed gains. The concept is right, but it is the degree of effect is being IMO misrepresented, mismeasured. Sad that discussion is unwelcome, something least of all expected from you. It does no good to discuss it in private because consumers don't get to decide for themselves, whilst you are obviously already a firm believer. So this is it then.. have fun with the awesome +5hp sparkplugs. May they make it into every level of motorsport where tight tolerances, power, and longevity, are vital.
Cheers
Whisky_Tango
Core Group Members
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
Understand bro, tats why Rodney is finding the rite plugs (gaps & heat range) for me.
Trying is believing bro, the pull is different from stock plugs which last change was 5mths ago. Juz dun have the rite plugs yet. Of course if the correct plugs used then and no diff from stock, I will not even say its good.
Chill bro, your discussion is always welcome.
Shaun said:
Understand bro, tats why Rodney is finding the rite plugs (gaps & heat range) for me.
Trying is believing bro, the pull is different from stock plugs which last change was 5mths ago. Juz dun have the rite plugs yet. Of course if the correct plugs used then and no diff from stock, I will not even say its good.
Chill bro, your discussion is always welcome.
Re: Volker Racing Spark Plugs
I have never attempted to quantify a feel with a number - without attaching a disclaimer.
===============
On a separate note, how much faith do you have in Volker? Something simple and straight from the horse's mouth...
http://www.volker-iridium.com/vi_technical_info.asp states...
Multiple kernel flames are never produced. This is fact ask any electrical engineer. By the same token, a surface gap plug should have a complete 360 degree radial spark. This never happens. The spark always takes the path of least resistance. The path is always singular.
No multiple kernel flames are produced. There is no reduction in spark intensity on multiple ground plugs.
Probably a typo. Should be 150,000 RPM.
I haven't even read the page in detail and already these 3 jumped out at me.
Whisky_Tango said:
I have never attempted to quantify a feel with a number - without attaching a disclaimer.
===============
On a separate note, how much faith do you have in Volker? Something simple and straight from the horse's mouth...
http://www.volker-iridium.com/vi_technical_info.asp states...
Multiple kernel flames are never produced. This is fact ask any electrical engineer. By the same token, a surface gap plug should have a complete 360 degree radial spark. This never happens. The spark always takes the path of least resistance. The path is always singular.
No multiple kernel flames are produced. There is no reduction in spark intensity on multiple ground plugs.
Probably a typo. Should be 150,000 RPM.
I haven't even read the page in detail and already these 3 jumped out at me.
