Degree no good ..... just get a good job

[Red_Bean_Bun]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

He is a clown. But he won. It's the results. And I guess that is what is being implied .....

Pay in ringgit and you may get something similar to the clown in the video below.

[video=youtube;Ao3Us8thAyg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao3Us8thAyg[/video]

 

[wobbles]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Well said. Very well said. We point fingers but forget 3 other fingers r pointing at ourselves...

Like what oilman said in the bonus thread...name 3 things singaporeans r happy with...hahahahahaha nothing

GOT LAH. Chow MW. I named 3 things I'm happy with what!

 

[wobbles]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Well said. Very well said. We point fingers but forget 3 other fingers r pointing at ourselves...

Like what oilman said in the bonus thread...name 3 things singaporeans r happy with...hahahahahaha nothing

GOT LAH. Chow MW. I named 3 things I'm happy with what!

 

[Red_Bean_Bun]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Singapore is an island with only people. No resources to offer but people. The strategy back then was we have no resources but we had know how. Train the people ... They are smart and willing to learn. Managed to sell that idea to MNCs. MNCs setup shop here and created jobs.

Today's strategy is ....... Degree not important. Just get a good job.

He is saying LKY, GKS etc were all wrong. Wonder what would happen if he said that during LKY's time ?

This Khaw is not the best guy to be speaking in public really, the way he phrase his sentences... quite fail. But I would have interpreted his advise as "getting a good job is more important than getting a good degree".

Sure, nobody is stopping you from furthering education.

Is there a shortage of engineers or programmers today? I can tell you - YES.

Are FTs taking away these jobs? I can tell you also - I think, YES.

But why Stinkaporeans say they tan bo jiak? Actually is not that there are no jobs out there. Unemployment is 2%! Everybody has a job. It's just that degree grads expectations really too high nowadays that people rather employ diploma grads. Degree grads are demanding, sometimes obnoxious and really difficult to manage. Poly grads at least will guai guai do the work. You know a fresh NUS grad these days want $3K base salary? Including CPF and AWS, that is actually $3.8K+/mth!

Unemployment is 2%. Everybody has a job! The good one, the bad one, all got job. There's no sense of worry. We *are* getting complacent.

I see people in office everyday surfing forum *AHEEM*, browsing Gmarket, surfing for new Hermes bag or Rolex watch... these guys are as good as sitting out on the beach! Datelines still cannot meet, give a lot of excuse, say busy, then suddenly MC for 2 days. Kid kena HFMD, GF pregnant, urgent leave, this and that.

Maybe I am sway, but this is really the kind of fresh grads we get these days, do you guys know or experience that? Maybe you see your colleague doing that and you don't feel anything, but as an employer you will want to kill these people I tell you... given that some of us still have some compassion and give people benefit of doubt, in other countries they would have been duly fired.

I'm not saying foreigners are all good, there are certainly bad eggs... but you tell the fucker to go home, they suddenly become guai guai. You tell a Singaporean to go home... they just quit lah. So easy to find new job. Why? Unemployment is 2%. Somemore change job get pay raise!

Looking on the flip side of the coin, employers also have to make ends meet. If today I sell char kuay teow and my chef demands $10K/mth + OT, the char kuay teow will need to sell $25/plate + service charge + GST. After 6pm still have to charge 1.5x normal price.

I'm both an employer and an employee, so I see both sides of the coin. It is really a difficult thing to deal with. Some unemployment is a good thing. Bring some people back to reality.

 

[detach8]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

He is saying LKY, GKS etc were all wrong. Wonder what would happen if he said that during LKY's time ?

The market dynamics has changed. If 2 months ago I tell you go buy gold, you confirm come and poke my backside when it crashed.

How many degree grads do we have walking out on the streets today? These people have a student loan to service the moment they entered school. The fact is that with so many people going into universities there is bound to be a higher proportion of lousy graduates. The world is like that one. There will always be people in the lower percentile. If we start taking in more and more people into degree courses, these lower percentile all want $3k starting pay. How? Then we KPKB say why when we order food at Macdonals the ah tiong cannot understand what we order.

Take laMWyer for example.

So many law grads from NUS every YEAR... for fiak? Do we really need that many lawyers? Are we turning into USA? Lawyers will work for FREE there... just to fight a case and then profit if they win.

Sure, the top percentile will end up in big law firms and earn big bucks.

The midddle percentile may go to do some kind of corporate lawyer thing, write contracts, etc.

The lower percentile leh? Go and become english tuition teacher? Then say tan bo jiak? Ask yourself why so many of your friend go and sell property or do MLM lah. Not that I despise these people, but the fact is that a lot of people went that route in pursuit of only one thing -- money. Got passion? Got lah... passion for money lor.

You cross your heart and tell me before they went do to all these shit were they good at their job or the field which they have pursued education in the first place?? If they were they really don't need to go and do this kind of thing one.

Then you want jokers like the one in the M'sian video to represent in our court?

A lot of CMI ppl I've encountered just keep saying they want to go for PMET courses, become manager. How to become manager when they can't even do simple shit (engineering related). If we have a lot of these kind of people become managers, we will have a serious problem because they will eventually become old and expensive. And when that happens, the result will be apparent -- there will be a lot of jobless old people. All end up go and drive taxi then when you hop on they tell you about their glorious days earning $10k/mth being a manager in some MNC.

People with real skill, real job... never worry they have no money to make.

It is the people with no skill, smoke screen jobs... that worry and kaopeh the most.

 

[wobbles]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Take laMWyer for example.

So many law grads from NUS every YEAR... for fiak? Do we really need that many lawyers? Are we turning into USA? Lawyers will work for FREE there... just to fight a case and then profit if they win.

HOOOOOOORRRRRRR. You DIE. LaMWyer letter coming soon!

 

[Radon39]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

HOOOOOOORRRRRRR. You DIE. LaMWyer letter coming soon!

letter invite lim kopi....what he say true bah

 

[Red_Bean_Bun]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Some things like education are universal and evergreen......I will never get sick of breathing air now or before.

Talk is cheap .... The allusion is basically he get the results but at your own expense. Will Singaporeans be able to retire with DIGNITY. Or will most singaporeans have to downgrade like what he said.

Will the students here continue their journey. Or will the students heed his advice and screw the degree stuff ?

The market dynamics has changed. If 2 months ago I tell you go buy gold, you confirm come and poke my backside when it crashed.

How many degree grads do we have walking out on the streets today? These people have a student loan to service the moment they entered school. The fact is that with so many people going into universities there is bound to be a higher proportion of lousy graduates. The world is like that one. There will always be people in the lower percentile. These people how?

Take laMWyer for example.

So many law grads from NUS every YEAR... for fiak? Do we really need that many lawyers? Are we turning into USA? Lawyers will work for FREE there... just to fight a case and then profit if they win.

Sure, the top percentile will end up in big law firms and earn big bucks.

The midddle percentile may go to do some kind of corporate lawyer thing, write contracts, etc.

The lower percentile leh? Go and become english tuition teacher? Then say tan bo jiak?

Then you want jokers like the one in the M'sian video to represent in our court?

A lot of CMI ppl I've encountered just keep saying they want to go for PMET courses, become manager. How to become manager when they can't even do simple shit (engineering related). If we have a lot of these kind of people become managers, we will have a serious problem because they will eventually become old and expensive. And when that happens, the result will be apparently -- there will be a lot of jobless old people. All end up go and drive taxi then when you hop on they tell you about their glorious days earning $10k/mth being a manager in some MNC.

 

[Radon39]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

seems like we are moving backwards....house prices gg down, thus making sure the masses earn sufficiently within that bracket to earn cheap housing......

 

[detach8]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Some things like education are universal and evergreen......I will never get sick of breathing air now or before.

Talk is cheap .... The allusion is basically he get the results but at your own expense. Will Singaporeans be able to retire with DIGNITY. Or will most singaporeans have to downgrade like what he said.

Will the students here continue their journey. Or will the students heed his advice and screw the degree stuff ?

EDUCATION is universal and evergreen. Agree.

However, a DEGREE is NOT.

Don't confuse the QUALITY or TYPE of EDUCATION with LEVEL of QUALIFICATION.

LEARNING and GETTING QUALIFIED are two different things.

Learning is a lifelong JOURNEY. Every day I learn something new. Does not mean I need to get a paper for all of that.

QUALIFICATION is just like a dollar in your pocket at a point in time.

DIGNITY is when you know that the first dollar in your pocket is spent wisely, and that you have lived a fulfilling life.

Today I don't have GCB, means I got no DIGNITY? It's not like that... some taxi drivers are perfectly happy the way they are.

That's all I can try to explain in the simplest of words.

 

[MW]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Confucius said "if the world only contained rich people, then there would not be a comparison between rich and poor because there's no poor to begin with"


Ok actually I said that...

 

[detach8]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

You don't try to "confucius" (spelling??!) people with your laMWyer language lah

 

[DrK]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

This Khaw is not the best guy to be speaking in public really, the way he phrase his sentences... quite fail. But I would have interpreted his advise as "getting a good job is more important than getting a good degree".

Sure, nobody is stopping you from furthering education.

Is there a shortage of engineers or programmers today? I can tell you - YES.

Are FTs taking away these jobs? I can tell you also - I think, YES.

But why Stinkaporeans say they tan bo jiak? Actually is not that there are no jobs out there. Unemployment is 2%! Everybody has a job. It's just that degree grads expectations really too high nowadays that people rather employ diploma grads. Degree grads are demanding, sometimes obnoxious and really difficult to manage. Poly grads at least will guai guai do the work. You know a fresh NUS grad these days want $3K base salary? Including CPF and AWS, that is actually $3.8K+/mth!

Unemployment is 2%. Everybody has a job! The good one, the bad one, all got job. There's no sense of worry. We *are* getting complacent.

I see people in office everyday surfing forum *AHEEM*, browsing Gmarket, surfing for new Hermes bag or Rolex watch... these guys are as good as sitting out on the beach! Datelines still cannot meet, give a lot of excuse, say busy, then suddenly MC for 2 days. Kid kena HFMD, GF pregnant, urgent leave, this and that.

Maybe I am sway, but this is really the kind of fresh grads we get these days, do you guys know or experience that? Maybe you see your colleague doing that and you don't feel anything, but as an employer you will want to kill these people I tell you... given that some of us still have some compassion and give people benefit of doubt, in other countries they would have been duly fired.

I'm not saying foreigners are all good, there are certainly bad eggs... but you tell the fucker to go home, they suddenly become guai guai. You tell a Singaporean to go home... they just quit lah. So easy to find new job. Why? Unemployment is 2%. Somemore change job get pay raise!

Looking on the flip side of the coin, employers also have to make ends meet. If today I sell char kuay teow and my chef demands $10K/mth + OT, the char kuay teow will need to sell $25/plate + service charge + GST. After 6pm still have to charge 1.5x normal price.

I'm both an employer and an employee, so I see both sides of the coin. It is really a difficult thing to deal with. Some unemployment is a good thing. Bring some people back to reality.

While your arguments that not all FTs are bad eggs hold, the converse is also true about Sporeans. Are most of the fresh local grads surfing fb, forums and lazy at work? Are most of the local grads showing more incompetency at work than FTs? Are most of the local grads complaining while FT workers do not complain? I'm not sure where your sample study took place but this is obviously not true.

Agree that putting locals back into reality is a good thing. It wakes them up and strive harder for achievement amid fierce competition. Singaporeans may not be the most versatile people but we are definitely quick at adapting to survive. To survive in a flood of FTs who take away your benefits require certain skills and alot of tolerance. Are we not tolerant enough? I'm sure the local youths out there have this FT-competition thingy imprinted all over their heads. If no other options are available, they will climb out stronger to challenge these FTs who have been taking away their jobs. Perhaps not all now, but in time to come, they will. And only if employers give them a fair chance of hiring them.

On the local employers who favour FTs over locals (when both stand equal in credentials), they are mostly addicted to cheap labour. They can come up with a million reasons that locals are shit and have no positive attitude at work etc, but the bottomline is? COST. In low to medium skilled jobs (even in white collar jobs), FTs are cheaper, no need to pay cpf etc. There are loopholes and employers know those. Cheaper FT cost have been fueling the appetite of employers for the last 10 years. This is part of the reason why unemployment is at only 2%. And on this statistical number which govt likes to flaunt - are we better off when we have unemployment rate of 2% when we have a 5.5million population (3.5m sporeans and 2 millions FT) or it was better when we have unemployment rate of 4% when we had a 3.5m population (mostly Singaporeans)? Well, do the maths and the number is about the same in terms of absolute number. And that is all unemployment still go to Sporeans.

The bottomline here is we had created alot of jobs for FTs. We had created marginally lesser jobs for our own people. So why should we be happy that unemployment rate has fallen to 2%? Because we should be happy now that our GDP is at 5.5% now and MIW can justify their own bonus?

 

[detach8]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

While your arguments that not all FTs are bad eggs hold, the converse is also true about Sporeans. Are most of the fresh local grads surfing fb, forums and lazy at work? Are most of the local grads showing more incompetency at work than FTs? Are most of the local grads complaining while FT workers do not complain? I'm not sure where your sample study took place but this is obviously not true.

Agree that putting locals back into reality is a good thing. It wakes them up and strive harder for achievement amid fierce competition. Singaporeans may not be the most versatile people but we are definitely quick at adapting to survive. To survive in a flood of FTs who take away your benefits require certain skills and alot of tolerance. Are we not tolerant enough? I'm sure the local youths out there have this FT-competition thingy imprinted all over their heads. If no other options are available, they will climb out stronger to challenge these FTs who have been taking away their jobs. Perhaps not all now, but in time to come, they will. And only if employers give them a fair chance of hiring them.

On the local employers who favour FTs over locals (when both stand equal in credentials), they are mostly addicted to cheap labour. They can come up with a million reasons that locals are shit and have no positive attitude at work etc, but the bottomline is? COST. In low to medium skilled jobs (even in white collar jobs), FTs are cheaper, no need to pay cpf etc. There are loopholes and employers know those. Cheaper FT cost have been fueling the appetite of employers for the last 10 years. This is part of the reason why unemployment is at only 2%. And on this statistical number which govt likes to flaunt - are we better off when we have unemployment rate of 2% when we have a 5.5million population (3.5m sporeans and 2 millions FT) or it was better when we have unemployment rate of 4% when we had a 3.5m population (mostly Singaporeans)? Well, do the maths and the number is about the same in terms of absolute number. And that is all unemployment still go to Sporeans.

The bottomline here is we had created alot of jobs for FTs. We had created marginally lesser jobs for our own people. So why should we be happy that unemployment rate has fallen to 2%? Because we should be happy now that our GDP is at 5.5% now and MIW can justify their own bonus?

Let me try to describe what is really happening on the ground, or at least what see is happening for my industry (IT).

The creme de la creme top 5% from local Unis tend to get hired even before they graduate. A lot of them end up in the valley in USA (for IT industry, that is) because that's where all the action is.

Then the next maybe top 10-15% are also hired almost instantly after they graduate. By what, you may ask? Government, civil service and really large MNCs like IBM, Oracle. These guys are good no doubt, but they are snapped up like a PML new launch sale.

The average ones also end up in quite a bit of the big companies in Singapore. You know the MNCs here really have hiring capacity. They almost NEVER stop hiring. And the fucking banks... the banks... they pay very well mind you.

Where do you think all the balance go? The lauya ones... SMEs lor. I'm not sure if any of you have been in a hiring position before, but you really will NOT get any good quality Singaporean applicants for small SMEs.

Maybe all the BMW-SG bro/sis here are affluent or well to do bunch, work in big MNCs... but if you really work in small SMEs you will see all kinds of crappy hires.

Oddly the chances of getting a GOOD foreigner is easier.

I hope you are also aware of the S/PR to foreigner ratio here. Some businesses I know packed up and left because the govt recently tightened this ratio. These SMEs cannot afford to hire Singaporeans and that is the sorry fact - the market just simply does NOT pay that well for that kind of work that they produce. You know, if you have a degree in games development... EA just retrenched people. These people got job or not, you think? You know how many fresh grads can do iPhone/iPad apps? How many of these kind of apps on the market today, how many of you here actually pay for apps leh? The end result is with all these shit - everybody have no jobs. Good lah. Knock some sense into people.

 

[MW]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Interesting points coz I have seen both scenarios

 

[detach8]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Are we not tolerant enough? I'm sure the local youths out there have this FT-competition thingy imprinted all over their heads. If no other options are available, they will climb out stronger to challenge these FTs who have been taking away their jobs.

Now I must say that this anti foreigner sentiment is starting to get too far fetched that it has become something that people oppose for the sake of opposing than really getting work done. Imagine if you have a foreigner in a team who is really doing reasonably good work, and a Singaporean staff starts dissing his work for some political reason like this, what this will become is a shitty political mess and workplace efficiency will drop.

I can't speak for everybody but by far the attitude of Singaporeans especially younger fresh grads have lots to be desired.

And mind you, the bosses of these businesses aren't some foreign worker coming to snatch your job. The bosses, like some of the good people in this forum, are Singaporeans. They have a business to run. A business must make money. It is not a charity. There's no charity in this world. Dog eat dog.

The Malaysian GE is an eye opener for Singaporeans. That is a fact of life. Sometimes you will have blackout... sometimes you think you have a choice, but the fact is you have NO CHOICE.

 

[detach8]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Just so you know, the 2% unemployment is for S/PR. Foreigners are NOT included in the computation:

Unemployment - Ministry of Manpower

And then if you think that PRs make up half of that number... look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore

 

[Red_Bean_Bun]

Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Seriously never seen fresh grads at Oracle. IBM or HP services have a bit.

Most of them I thought ended up in NCS doing support work. 1.7k/month. FT also same pay. Even those with experience.

All have education or degrees. Don't think they got the job like the way KBH described.

Let me try to describe what is really happening on the ground, or at least what see is happening for my industry (IT).

The creme de la creme top 5% from local Unis tend to get hired even before they graduate. A lot of them end up in the valley in USA (for IT industry, that is) because that's where all the action is.

Then the next maybe top 10-15% are also hired almost instantly after they graduate. By what, you may ask? Government, civil service and really large MNCs like IBM, Oracle. These guys are good no doubt, but they are snapped up like a PML new launch sale.

The average ones also end up in quite a bit of the big companies in Singapore. You know the MNCs here really have hiring capacity. They almost NEVER stop hiring. And the fucking banks... the banks... they pay very well mind you.

Where do you think all the balance go? The lauya ones... SMEs lor. I'm not sure if any of you have been in a hiring position before, but you really will NOT get any good quality Singaporean applicants for small SMEs.

Maybe all the BMW-SG bro/sis here are affluent or well to do bunch, work in big MNCs... but if you really work in small SMEs you will see all kinds of crappy hires.

Oddly the chances of getting a GOOD foreigner is easier.

I hope you are also aware of the S/PR to foreigner ratio here. Some businesses I know packed up and left because the govt recently tightened this ratio. These SMEs cannot afford to hire Singaporeans and that is the sorry fact - the market just simply does NOT pay that well for that kind of work that they produce. You know, if you have a degree in games development... EA just retrenched people. These people got job or not, you think? You know how many fresh grads can do iPhone/iPad apps? How many of these kind of apps on the market today, how many of you here actually pay for apps leh? The end result is with all these shit - everybody have no jobs. Good lah. Knock some sense into people.

 

[detach8]

Re: Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Seriously never seen fresh grads at Oracle. IBM or HP services have a bit.

Most of them I thought ended up in NCS doing support work. 1.7k/month. FT also same pay. Even those with experience.

All have education or degrees. Don't think they got the job like the way KBH described.

Bro, the really good freshies are almost ALL in the valley. I am not kidding.

The good ones are in where u know... mostly government/civil jobs. DSO, A*STAR. And the fucking banks - because they pay a LOT.

Then those that don't get these high paying jobs end up in the likes of IBM or HP, as a pretty junior staff but still reasonably paid. I think you are right, some of them don't hire total freshies like Oracle (and I thought HP wouldn't hire freshies either). I was just pulling big MNC names off my head.

Those freshies in NCS??? Those are the middle or lower group. N*S pays like shit. It's true. But their quality of work also pretty shit. I think the whole industry knows that. It's not a MNC either. It's just a large local enterprise

 

[Red_Bean_Bun]

Degree no good ..... just get a good job

Silicon Valley type normally take those already studying there. A bit tough for nus guy to get sponsorship there.

Jobless rate in US is 7.4%. Situation there is Really bad. Gahmen there really going down hard on companies that hire from outside US unless they can prove the skill is so niche. So only phd type go there because of research. Else locals there can do the job as oppose to hiring a fresh grad from nus.

If can do until phd ... They must be good. That is a degree too. And if they follow KBH - don't think they can just get a good job.

Just saying what I am seeing. Maybe I have not seen enough ..... Maybe rosier where you are seeing things.

Bro, the really good freshies are almost ALL in the valley. I am not kidding.

The good ones are in where u know... mostly government/civil jobs. DSO, A*STAR. And the fucking banks - because they pay a LOT.

Then those that don't get these high paying jobs end up in the likes of IBM or HP, as a pretty junior staff but still reasonably paid. I think you are right, some of them don't hire total freshies like Oracle (and I thought HP wouldn't hire freshies either). I was just pulling big MNC names off my head.

Those freshies in NCS??? Those are the middle or lower group. N*S pays like shit. It's true. But their quality of work also pretty shit. I think the whole industry knows that.