Ignition Upgrades

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Whatever facts come out there will be ways to disregard results.

Within broad limits, you and I and many others, know this is not true.

When FI stuff is tested by 12 people independently on 3 different dynos and power gain ranges from 50-62 hp, we know with a high degree of certainty that this FI kit costing $X will yield a 50-62 hp improvement.

When a semi slick tire is tested by 30 different drivers at the same track, in different cars, and improvement ranges from 3 - 5 seconds a lap, we know with a high degree of certainty that a set of semi slicks costing $Y are worth 3 -5 seconds a lap vs a typical street tire.

Anyone is free to "disregard the results" of 12/12 or 30/30 drivers, but if they were to mention it publicly, they would be by each group (the ones who've done the actual dynoing and test laps), asked for proof to the contrary. If there was none provided, the rational community would no longer take them seriously and simply disregard anything they say from that point on.

"I sell FI kits that have been dyno tested by 12 out of 12 independent buyers to yield between 50-62 hp on their 325i" is entirely different from "I sell FI kits that 32 buyers feel and are very sure, increased their 325i's power by a lot." This is basic science no?

It is absolutely false that solid results can be disregarded at will, without penalty, loss of credibility, etc. To lean on something so untrue, shows other problems.

 

[Red_Bean_Bun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Within broad limits, you and I and many others, know this is not true.

When FI stuff is tested by 12 people independently on 3 different dynos and power gain ranges from 50-62 hp, we know with a high degree of certainty that this FI kit costing $X will yield a 50-62 hp improvement.

When a semi slick tire is tested by 30 different drivers at the same track, in different cars, and improvement ranges from 3 - 5 seconds a lap, we know with a high degree of certainty that a set of semi slicks costing $Y are worth 3 -5 seconds a lap vs a typical street tire.

Anyone is free to "disregard the results" of 12/12 or 30/30 drivers, but if they were to mention it publicly, they would be by each group (the ones who've done the actual dynoing and test laps), asked for proof to the contrary. If there was none provided, the rational community would no longer take them seriously and simply disregard anything they say from that point on.

"I sell FI kits that have been dyno tested by 12 out of 12 independent buyers to yield between 50-62 hp on their 325i" is entirely different from "I sell FI kits that 32 buyers feel and are very sure, increased their 325i's power by a lot." This is basic science no?

It is absolutely false that solid results can be disregarded at will, without penalty, loss of credibility, etc. To lean on something so untrue, shows other problems.

"Perception is reality" versus "Let the facts speak for itself" ............. in business (dollars), academia (grades), politics (votes), engineering (math) - it all boils down to numbers that is initially assumed then defended.

Now we can add auto mods to the list ..................that being said, not all enthusiats are of the same genre - some focus on numbers (vendor has their work cut out for them) whilst others just try anything that they can get their hands on (perception is all the vendor needs - truth not needed).

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

not all enthusiats are of the same genre - some focus on numbers (vendor has their work cut out for them) whilst others just try anything that they can get their hands on (perception is all the vendor needs - truth not needed).

Perception has its place - looks, sound, etc.

You can sell an exhaust system purely on say..how it sounds, or you can sell it by talking about performance gain (power, torque, acceleration). When you do the latter, it means means you're into an area where objective quantification is possible - and if you are serious and sure of what you sell, it all should be quantified.

The sound and looks crowd can do whatever they want - there's really nothing to discuss there.

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Thanks for the cartoon.

We can all see where your background intentions are.

We have completed a pre and post dyno run at an independent facility on the same day, at the same place, separated by just 3 hours.

The dyno chosen was the Motor Image dyno. They ran the dyno and we had no part of the results nor tests. 3 runs was made and the results averaged to get the chart.

The chart with the 105PS end mark was the before while the one with 106PS was after. The chart belongs to a 2.0L Normally aspirated Honda Accord (Thai type). The car is 4 yrs old and is as stock as stock can be.

Taking into account the inaccuracies of the starting pull due to torque converter locking up and such, the curves from 3000rpm up to red-line is considered.

Across the board, there is a big gain in torque from 3000rpm to 5000rpm. The biggest jump of 44Nm was recorded and this tapered down when approaching redline due to breathing restrictions. We are talking about a stock honda accord here. the paper air filter was still there as with the exhaust.

Up to 5000rpm, there was still a 7Nm of gain and this range of gains gives you the pulling grunt across the rev range.

So now, what's your next comment?

Shaun, you have accused me of being unfounded and that my work is riding on the verge of "balance bracelets" and "sprititual healing". I take this with full disgust.

 

[Roberto]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Those are interesting numbers. I eagerly await Shawn's interpretation.

How much did your dyno test cost R2D and on which date and location was this test conducted ? Were any forumers in attendance?


rgds.

 

[C3P0]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi, I am really not a technical person and can't understand all the technical jargons. But I just saw the cartoon and would say this is bad taste. I'm very low class kind with poor English, but u so highly educated with powerful English, why paste this kind of cartoon and end up at my level? tsk tsk tsk....
Yawn.... I go back and sleep already.

 

[Roberto]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi, I am really not a technical person and can't understand all the technical jargons. But I just saw the cartoon and would say this is bad taste. I'm very low class kind with poor English, but u so highly educated with powerful English, why paste this kind of cartoon and end up at my level? tsk tsk tsk....
Yawn.... I go back and sleep already.

I feel that cartoon is appropriate for 90% of the so called car products and upgrades out there. The average car consumer is an ignoramus and is content to remain so.

 

[C3P0]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

I feel that cartoon is appropriate for 90% of the so called car products and upgrades out there. The average car consumer is an ignoramus and is content to remain so.

Bro u very cheem la ha ha. Let me go check dictionary first.....
Edit: check liao. Today learn a new word. Robot sibey ignoramus!

 

[rodders]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi, I am really not a technical person and can't understand all the technical jargons. But I just saw the cartoon and would say this is bad taste. I'm very low class kind with poor English, but u so highly educated with powerful English, why paste this kind of cartoon and end up at my level? tsk tsk tsk....
Yawn.... I go back and sleep already.

I wonder why this witch hunt is only focused on Rod's workshop. Why isn't this crusader extending his crusade to the other listed workshops in this forum and then eventually to every other workshops in Sillypore.

Maybe Rod looks like some easy meat that fell off the wagon.:dramamam:

 

[martmode8850]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Rod (R2D), I am happy that you were willing to invest to prove the results. I would now say, you are one level up from the rest.

Rod (Rodders), the other Rod just proved he is different from the rest of the workshops by running individual third party tests instead of stating product marketing claims that are not verifiable. From another perspective, it made this product claim a lot more solid instead of just talk only, even if they came from the users. But of course, this is limited to the test results meant for the Accord family only.

I think we all drive cars that have engines cost S$8k and above. And if we dont question the product in terms of their quality and results (must be verifiable with data, with third party witness if possible) then we are doing ourselves an injustice. Unless of course, we only intend to drive the ride for less than 3 years, then it's the next owner's probelm.

 

[rodders]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Rod (R2D), I am happy that you were willing to invest to prove the results. I would now say, you are one level up from the rest.

Rod (Rodders), the other Rod just proved he is different from the rest of the workshops by running individual third party tests instead of stating product marketing claims that are not verifiable. From another perspective, it made this product claim a lot more solid instead of just talk only, even if they came from the users. But of course, this is limited to the test results meant for the Accord family only.

I'm speaking up for Rod because in the many years that I've known him, I've come to know him as a honest and hardworking mechanic who will not peddle snake oil to anyone. In fact I've become good friends to both him and his wife Nadia. I've done this upgrade on my previous ride and even though I'm not technically inclined, I really felt the difference in my car. In fact the car dealer who test drove my car before buying it from me thought my ride was a 320. I think that speaks volume about the benefit of this upgrade.

 

[duh!]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

This + volker + scoop will be in my car, great!!

 

[Mockngbrd]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

nice one on the dyno.

 

[niteblu]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Motor Image - Dyno Dynamics Dyno :

http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/engine-performance-transmission-section/44309-obd-tuning.html

Not cheap, but Subaru in Toa Payoh... dyno dynamics dyno on the top floor in the coolest dyno cell in SG.. nice knowledgeable operator, plus since it's not a workshop, there's almost no chance of workshop to workshop politic-ing and messing around with numbers.

Do a before and after dyno to look at % gain. At no point should you express excitement or speak / hint at/of what was done or what you're going to do, where you get your work done etc. Just dyno it.

And don't tell your workshop or tuner when you're going to dyno it or even that you're going to at some point. Just get the work done, and get the dyno done, completely separately, no info/hints/lead-ons/expressions of expectation, excitement, etc. at either location.

http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/engine-performance-transmission-section/23438-dyno-singapore-2.html

The main chassis dynos in Singapore are hub-type and rolling-road (inertia or eddy current). There are other variations of the rolling-road like water-brake but AFAIK none are in Singapore so will omit them from the discussion.

The most common hub-type is the Dynapack. As pointed out the wheels have to be removed and thus there are no frictional losses due to tie-down pressure, tire deformation etc. So assuming that there is no correction factor applied the figures you get should be rightly considered as "power/torque at the hubs". It may very well be the case that Car A with 350 PS at hubs will lose out to Car B with 350 PS at wheels, because tire and rolling losses were not accounted for, ceteris paribus (same car model/transmission, similar shifting speed and pattern etc). Then there are certain places where correction factors are not only applied, but used liberally and indiscriminately. :screwedu:

As for rolling road, the inertia types are the Dynojets, Hyper Dynos, DIMTech etc. Fundamentally these dynos calculate the force required to move a fixed mass (the rollers) at a measured rate of acceleration. This makes them pretty much useless for dyno tuning because the tuner will not be able to hold a steady load/RPM site and thus alter that particular site and see the effects in realtime. They also usually lack sensitivity and thus require smoothing functions to present a nice curve. Another major problem is that since they are measuring inertia a "tuner" could cheat by just changing the wheels to something less heavy and you get "free" horsepower. About the only thing they're good for is a full power sweep. To address some of these issues a lot of these inertia dyno makers have a "retarder" option to allow actual tuning to be carried out. How good these are, the sensitivity, hysteresis, overloading, all vary.

The best I've seen to date and seriously recommend are the Dyno Dynamics dynos. There is one at Subaru in Toa Payoh and I only use that. The dyno operator there is competent and knowledgeable. The dyno is calibrated on a regular basis and produces realistic figures, which are further reinforced by my own GPS test data. I have done repeated back-to-back runs and the power is almost always within 1 PS of one another. The only trouble I had was dynoing an automatic MINI which was always kicking down whenever full throttle was applied.

There's also Mainline Dyno which is receiving good reviews worldwide unfortunately I do not know of any in Singapore.

 

[pengful]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

I hope no one gets hurt here...

 

[jinooi]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

hurray for Rod and R2D!

the empirical evidence proves me right again - i always knew my butt dyno is accurate!

 

[benji ben]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

wow i didn't know i have the skill of butt dyno too. does that make a me a superhero? :dramamam: kudos to rod for going through the effort to prove the ingnition upgrade.

i think sherman has the power too cos when he drove my car to do tiniting, he thought mine was a 6 potter. while in actual fact, it's just a 4-pot 8 valve engine.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

So now, what's your next comment?

There will be more complaining after reading the list below, but most of the list has been posted multiple times on this forum, and not directed at you. So no need to keep taking things so personally.

Was there an independent witness to the tests?
Who conducted the tests and made sure conditions were as close as possible?
Were the water and oil temps logged and where are the traces?
Did MI change its software? IIRC the layout they use is entirely different and supports overlays.
On the subject of overlays, note that 2 out of the 3 axes in the graphs are completely different in scale. Not sure if this was intentional or not, but it is misleading to newbies and makes a clear comparison more time consuming.
Why is the test only A-B, and not A-B-A, or more? The ignition mod can be disabled and enabled quickly right? Why is 3 hours of separation required?
The shape of the torque curve is different in many ways and an across the board ignition efficiency change doesn't do that.... more a translation up or down. Doesn't create new peaks and troughs unless there are problems, intermittent problems, or different filters applied to the traces. Overlay the two on the same axes and you'll see what I mean.

Lastly why an automatic Honda Accord and why not a manual BMW?

Shaun, you have accused me of being unfounded and that my work is riding on the verge of "balance bracelets" and "sprititual healing". I take this with full disgust.

But the logic and conduct was in fact that close.

==

Isaac, yes all that is true assuming the one conducting the test is impartial too and the operator has no knowledge of anything (totally blind), and is himself doing his best to minimize variables.

As for the rest, it is only instinct to bond on a sociological level and come up with all sorts of defenses, get offended, rally to support etc. All that is understandable in a way, but really has no place when it comes to basic scientific testing, or even simple logic. It's only noise in the end, not signal - and you're only wasting energy while looking silly. 10000 people can feel something, and all 10000 people can be wrong. Eg. Powerbalance

It's very easy to be good, or a great guy, etc. when it allows you to get away with and benefit from other not so good expression, action. Eg. that monk in the papers who misappropriated temple money, and after conviction, still has his bunch of blind followers because he is a "great guy".

 

[rodders]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

YAWN..........................sibey boring and sleepy.

 

[ryan]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi all,

I've closed this thread earlier to allow for some time for both parties to cool off.

After some discussion with the both parties, I've decided to put my car up as a guinea pig as a test car with proper conditions. Nothing new since I've done dyno runs for my exhaust systems. Till the tests and dyno charts are out - hang on tight everyone.

Do keep the discussions open and we'll see what turns out soon.