Ignition Upgrades

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

+1
what is the service interval to replace the capacitor (ie: 60k mileage? 2years?)

Hi, so far we have yet to see 1 capacitor fail and those on my car are still working after 4 years. If you want peace of mind, come in for a replacement and we can swap them out. At a much lower cost of cos. I would say 2 to 3 years is a good time.

 

[wt_know]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

cool. will drop by to swap new capacitors in due course. thanks

Hi, so far we have yet to see 1 capacitor fail and those on my car are still working after 4 years. If you want peace of mind, come in for a replacement and we can swap them out. At a much lower cost of cos. I would say 2 to 3 years is a good time.

 

[Roberto]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Yes, I should have been more careful with my words. Somehow, you just did not notice it until you posted it. :laughing:

Look, why should you edit your words like an attorney before posting ? This is an enthusiast's forum, not for industry players. Merchants starting threads are welcome where accepted but they must have the EQ to respond to criticism in a way that maintains the friendly atmosphere and without getting anyone's guard up (especially since this is so typically singaporean already). They are getting real cheap (and sometimes) free advertising. So say what you want with ordinary care, but if any merchant is going to be uncool in defending himself, he should simply take out a second mortgage and start advertising in the papers instead of posting on threads here.

I'm sure Rodney is intelligent enough to know this without it being stated explicitly. He sounds like a cool Joe - we are all friends, his posture is that of the friendly neighbourhood tinkerer (or it should be anyways, haven't read all 46 (!) pages ). In fact, bro, you are the one putting him on the spot by apologising for your initial remarks all the time. Maybe next time someone says something, he might hold himself back too much in his reply, which wouldn't be us treating him as a friend as well.

Perhaps you should just go back and delete your original comments if you're so concerned, that would be faster. We certainly don't want a forum where you would feel constrained in your expression....the forum is meant for us not merchants, they are welcome where welcomed, but they are definitely the 'accessories' and not the 'engine' of the thing. fwiw.

 

[TheEvilEwok]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi there, was just reading about this ignition upgrade and hope all can pardon my ignorance and address my questions.
Even after reading the explanations , i still dont quite get it...

How does a better ignition coil translate to better torque? From my limited understsanding, current flowing thru coil generates magnetic field and when it is cut, strong voltage is generated to create the spark to fire ur cylinders. Does it matter if this voltage generated is 15k or 20k or 100k based on the number of windings in the coil? So long as the spark is generated to the cylinders is what matters isnt it?
Be it OEM or upgraded ignition.. so long as the minimum voltage to fire spark and move cylinders is generated - there shouldnt be any noticeable difference? Or should there?

Also , there was mention that the coil upgrades allow for longer spark duration. However,
is spark duration a crucial factor? The spark is needed only to ignite the fuel air mixture.
Be it 1/1000 sec or 10/1000 sec... so long as it is ignited, combustion occurs regardless
of how long the duration of spark isnt it? Also, having a longer spark duration may affect the ignition
timing which may not always be good for the engine?

Would be great to have some enlightenment on this ! Actually got most of my info from
here : Ignition Systems  A Short Course

Thanks !

 

[brandonng]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Just did the ignition upgrade just now by Rodney. Both Rodney & Darryl are both experience and willing to share the knowledge to a car noob like me. Thanks.

Rodney said to rev 4000-6000 to fell it, but at only 3000+ my car already got the pull. Really impressive mod by Rodney.
I was revving all the way all the expressway, and the feeling is so perfectly wonderful, But of course my Fuel Consumption +++++++ . Hahahaha.....
I like the ways Rodney uses physics laws on the car. Thanks Rodney! Thanks Darryl.

I am positive to come back for more mod for my ride

 

[samkoh]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi All :

A few mornings ago , I had some issues with car and had to urgently send in for check (Tropical Autocare, near AMK)...
They phoned me later in the afternoon to inform of some "unauthorized" mods on my car which they said could be harmful to my ignition coil and also engine...

I was quite busy at work and told them just to remove it if is causing problems...
When I was back at the workshop, I realized to my aghast that its was R2D Ignition Upgrade that they had removed..
I questioned them on why this mod was an issue...
Obviously, I couldnt understand the technical explanantion..
In all practicality, the workshop is Ok , but I still think Rodney knowledge of BMW surpasses them (and alot of other workshops for that matter)

Hopefully Rod can answer, if he can still find time to monitor this forum...
Else : Does anyone here have issues or side effects with this mod ?
If confirmed nothing wrong with this mod, then I may want to put in back in...

Thanks in advance

 

[Roberto]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

BMW AG spends billions of dollars on research. You've seen the ignition coil....it doesn't take up much space and can be comfortably increased in size and thus capacity if they felt it would help. They didn't so that's saying something. I would suspect that ignition coils on our cars are not meant to take higher charges than they are designed for, and will thus wouldn't be surprised if they lead to problems over time.

If you want a performance upgrade, switch to hotter cams, better exhausts, 4 claw spark plugs, cais and faster flowing injectors. Have your ecu retuned.

Could you take post some pictures of the ignition upgrade equipment? Lets take a look. And tell us more about the issues your car had. Were they fixed when the r2d stuff was removed?

 

[Roberto]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

You are clearly entitled to go back to r2d2 and have them check your system out to see if they caused a problem with your car. That would be the first think for you to do actually.

 

[samkoh]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Ermm.. It looks like .. the ballast that comes with the fluorescent light....
My issue was the igntion coil...
The workshop did not exactly say that the mod caused the problem...
Its more like they discovered this mod and planted the typical workshop FUD (fear, uncertainty & doubts) in my mind...

I had this mod for more than a year...and it definitely did improve pickup ...

A lot of us have had this mod over some time....
Just wanted to get a feedback from the guys to see how everyone is doing with this mod...
Thats the power of this forum .. isnt it ?

Cheers!

BMW AG spends billions of dollars on research. You've seen the ignition coil....it doesn't take up much space and can be comfortably increased in size and thus capacity if they felt it would help. They didn't so that's saying something. I would suspect that ignition coils on our cars are not meant to take higher charges than they are designed for, and will thus wouldn't be surprised if they lead to problems over time.

If you want a performance upgrade, switch to hotter cams, better exhausts, 4 claw spark plugs, cais and faster flowing injectors. Have your ecu retuned.

Could you take post some pictures of the ignition upgrade equipment? Lets take a look. And tell us more about the issues your car had. Were they fixed when the r2d stuff was removed?

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi there, was just reading about this ignition upgrade and hope all can pardon my ignorance and address my questions.
Even after reading the explanations , i still dont quite get it...

How does a better ignition coil translate to better torque? From my limited understsanding, current flowing thru coil generates magnetic field and when it is cut, strong voltage is generated to create the spark to fire ur cylinders. Does it matter if this voltage generated is 15k or 20k or 100k based on the number of windings in the coil? So long as the spark is generated to the cylinders is what matters isnt it?
Be it OEM or upgraded ignition.. so long as the minimum voltage to fire spark and move cylinders is generated - there shouldnt be any noticeable difference? Or should there?

Also , there was mention that the coil upgrades allow for longer spark duration. However,
is spark duration a crucial factor? The spark is needed only to ignite the fuel air mixture.
Be it 1/1000 sec or 10/1000 sec... so long as it is ignited, combustion occurs regardless
of how long the duration of spark isnt it? Also, having a longer spark duration may affect the ignition
timing which may not always be good for the engine?

Would be great to have some enlightenment on this ! Actually got most of my info from
here : Ignition Systems A Short Course

Thanks !

Since this topic has come up again, lets start a discussion, You need 3 condictions to be present within a combustion chamber for the fuel mixture to burn. You need the spark, fuel molecule and oxygen too. These need to be present at the exact moment for successful combustion.

Why does a greater spark produce better power? A stronger spark allows for the fuel mixture to commence the burn process faster and thus liberates more power as the piston is continually in motion and faster burn rates equates to acheiving maximum cylinder pressures earlier in the crank shaft angle. (of cos any burning before top dead center means detonation)

An ignition coil produces a ramp output voltage. As the output voltage rises past the ionisation voltage, the spark gap starts to conduct and all the energy above the ionisation point is onverted to spark current. Any lowering of ionisation voltage allows for greater duration of spark which translates to increased probability of overcoming any combustion shadows caused by the spark tips. A longer duration is sometimes achieved by decreasing the spark gap but that has the effect of reducing spark area and that too affects the rate of flame propogation and hence power. A longer spark duration odes not affect spark timing cos its the trailing edge of the primary input current that triggers the output coil.

As mentioned, the ignition upgrade helps to boost the amount of magnetic energy stored within the coil and this magnetic energy is in turn converted back to electrical energy and hence a brighter spark.

Why do manufacturers abstain from such mods, well the capacitors are electrolytic in manufacturing and there will be failures of such components. I will be frank and tell you, so far there have been 2 cars with a failed capacitor each but these drivers did not even complain, it was during routine maintenance that i spotted the failures and replace them. So for a large volume manufacturer, it would not make sense to implement such ignition systems.

There is a distinct line between what is good and what is required. A standard ignition system can get your car moving, last a long time and maybe even be the cheapest to provide with a car. But there are ways to make standard better.

cheers

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

BMW AG spends billions of dollars on research. You've seen the ignition coil....it doesn't take up much space and can be comfortably increased in size and thus capacity if they felt it would help. They didn't so that's saying something. I would suspect that ignition coils on our cars are not meant to take higher charges than they are designed for, and will thus wouldn't be surprised if they lead to problems over time.

If you want a performance upgrade, switch to hotter cams, better exhausts, 4 claw spark plugs, cais and faster flowing injectors. Have your ecu retuned.

Could you take post some pictures of the ignition upgrade equipment? Lets take a look. And tell us more about the issues your car had. Were they fixed when the r2d stuff was removed?

Same answer as before, there is stock stuff to get you going. So by this logic, a stock car has brakes that can slow down your car, should you upgrade?

BTW not everything you mentioned suits a daily driver and/or produce more torque.

actually there is not a whole lot more space to fit bigger coils within the cylinder head. You can get okada coils for your car instead?

Ermm.. It looks like .. the ballast that comes with the fluorescent light....
My issue was the igntion coil...
The workshop did not exactly say that the mod caused the problem...
Its more like they discovered this mod and planted the typical workshop FUD (fear, uncertainty & doubts) in my mind...

I had this mod for more than a year...and it definitely did improve pickup ...

A lot of us have had this mod over some time....
Just wanted to get a feedback from the guys to see how everyone is doing with this mod...
Thats the power of this forum .. isnt it ?

Cheers!

Failing ignition coils are not uncommon, the windings have an insulation that degrades over time due to heat.

 

[duh!]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Since this topic has come up again, lets start a discussion, You need 3 condictions to be present within a combustion chamber for the fuel mixture to burn. You need the spark, fuel molecule and oxygen too. These need to be present at the exact moment for successful combustion.

Why does a greater spark produce better power? A stronger spark allows for the fuel mixture to commence the burn process faster and thus liberates more power as the piston is continually in motion and faster burn rates equates to acheiving maximum cylinder pressures earlier in the crank shaft angle. (of cos any burning before top dead center means detonation)

An ignition coil produces a ramp output voltage. As the output voltage rises past the ionisation voltage, the spark gap starts to conduct and all the energy above the ionisation point is onverted to spark current. Any lowering of ionisation voltage allows for greater duration of spark which translates to increased probability of overcoming any combustion shadows caused by the spark tips. A longer duration is sometimes achieved by decreasing the spark gap but that has the effect of reducing spark area and that too affects the rate of flame propogation and hence power. A longer spark duration odes not affect spark timing cos its the trailing edge of the primary input current that triggers the output coil.

As mentioned, the ignition upgrade helps to boost the amount of magnetic energy stored within the coil and this magnetic energy is in turn converted back to electrical energy and hence a brighter spark.

Why do manufacturers abstain from such mods, well the capacitors are electrolytic in manufacturing and there will be failures of such components. I will be frank and tell you, so far there have been 2 cars with a failed capacitor each but these drivers did not even complain, it was during routine maintenance that i spotted the failures and replace them. So for a large volume manufacturer, it would not make sense to implement such ignition systems.

There is a distinct line between what is good and what is required. A standard ignition system can get your car moving, last a long time and maybe even be the cheapest to provide with a car. But there are ways to make standard better.

cheers

Dude... I am new to this forum... I have no clue who you are... but just by reading this :dramamam:, I already have a liking to come visit you someday

I am no businessman.. but I have a lot of respect for shop owners to share their views in forums in the open and be in a vulnerable state especially when everything gets written black/white

Will check out the ignition upgrade soon, hope it will solve the low end shithole I am facing

 

[pbear1973]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Dude... I am new to this forum... I have no clue who you are... but just by reading this :dramamam:, I already have a liking to come visit you someday

Rodney is the guy who specializes in performing this upgrade. He only works at night and is popular (as you can tell), so book early. Lol. BTW remember to also ask about the engine mount upgrade. It reduces engine twisting, thus delivering more torque to the drive shaft. This is at the expense of a little bit more vibration.

I intend to get the mount upgrade some day.

 

[Roberto]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Why do manufacturers abstain from such mods, well the capacitors are electrolytic in manufacturing and there will be failures of such components. I will be frank and tell you, so far there have been 2 cars with a failed capacitor each but these drivers did not even complain, it was during routine maintenance that i spotted the failures and replace them. So for a large volume manufacturer, it would not make sense to implement such ignition systems.


cheers

Thanks for the response, rodney. Got some questions for you. Does bmw motorsports use capacitors on their ignition coils?

And there is no difficulty in builiding a coil with thicker more extended windings, it need not extend sideways but could just protrude 'skyward', and there's loads of space for that to happen, so, for a performance marque like bmw, why don't they do it the traditional way by coil windings instead of capacitors which may fail unpredictably?

How does your capacitor-enhanced ignition coil compare with dual-spark plugs, in terms of the effect on performance?

Could you post some pictures of modded ignition coils? Thanks.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

faster burn rates equates to acheiving maximum cylinder pressures earlier in the crank shaft angle. (of cos any burning before top dead center means detonation)

Hi Rodney,

Achieving maximum cylinder pressure at earlier crank angles does not necessarily equate to more power unless you alter the ignition timing to compensate. If this is not done you can easily lose power.

Between a normal spark and a strong spark there is hardly any increase in kernel area.

Also it is false that any burning before TDC means detonation. All engines spark and burn before TDC. Detonation is not when the burn is, but the condition of the burn. Detonation almost always takes place ATDC because the end gasses need cook off time before they can ignite and uncontrolled burn fronts collide.

These questions remained unanswered since long ago when they were first asked. After all this time and not a single controlled dyno test. The excuse that dyno tests cost too much is not valid. These days there are controlled acceleration tests to run as well. Loggers.. FOC. The excuse that the gain is too small to be recorded and only can be 'felt' is also invalid because I've logged good drivers that :

- can't even feel a massive 12-16% gain or reduction in power
- can't feel the engine pulling timing in sharp steps due to detonation from poor fuel quality
- can't feel the difference between 0.7 G and 1.0 G (a difference of 24kg applied to an 80kg body )
And best example is a young race winning driver revered for his skill, speed, and feel, can't even feel staggered ackerman on his car (mechanic error) and even declares that it is handling great.

So, sorry to all the 'feelers' out there (some of whom are my friends), but human feel is hugely overrated and in the case of small changes - useless.

Just my frank view ok

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

I will be frank and tell you, so far there have been 2 cars with a failed capacitor each but these drivers did not even complain, it was during routine maintenance that i spotted the failures and replace them.

So between November last year when you said "Hi, so far we have yet to see 1 capacitor fail and those on my car are still working after 4 years.", and today, you've had 2 failed capacitors?

 

[Roberto]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi Rodney,

Achieving maximum cylinder pressure at earlier crank angles does not necessarily equate to more power unless you alter the ignition timing to compensate. If this is not done you can easily lose power.

Between a normal spark and a strong spark there is hardly any increase in kernel area.

Also it is false that any burning before TDC means detonation. All engines spark and burn before TDC. Detonation is not when the burn is, but the condition of the burn. Detonation typically takes place ATDC because the end gasses need cook off time before they can ignite and uncontrolled burn fronts collide.

These questions remained unanswered since long ago when they were first asked. After all this time and not a single controlled dyno test. The excuse that dyno tests cost too much is not valid. These days there are controlled acceleration tests to run as well. Loggers.. FOC. The excuse that the gain is too small to be recorded and only can be 'felt' is also invalid because I've logged good drivers that :

- can't even feel a massive 12-16% gain or reduction in power
- can't feel the engine pulling timing in sharp steps due to detonation from poor fuel quality
- can't feel the difference between 0.7 G and 1.0 G (a difference of 24kg applied to an 80kg body )
And best example is a young race winning driver revered for his skill, speed, and feel, can't even feel staggered ackerman on his car (mechanic error) and even declares that it is handling great.

So, sorry to all the feelers out there (some of whom are my friends), but human feel is hugely overrated and in the cases of small changes - useless.

Just my frank view ok

Several years, several cars, and tons of money later, I can certainly endorse the comment that human feel is extremely overated ! Great comment shaun. Outstanding to encounter a bmw driver who actually knows his stuff for a change.

Rodney sir, it is time for you to dyno cars or otherwise conduct scientifically verifiable before and after tests on at least 2 cars, audited by some forummers. Not doing so after 50 forum pages of success is ridiculous if someone like shaun can still intelligently challenge the science behind your commentary. And you cannot deny that the 'seat of the pants' dyno is often misplaced.

Yes it will cost money but that's an investment in your business and becomes endlessly usable marketing material for you. And you can compensate for the front end invesment by raising the price of your mods by 3-5%, even if you feel that the flood of new business coming in from referalls across all the various forums does not adequately make up for your dyno etc costs.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Outstanding to encounter a bmw driver who actually knows his stuff

I don't drive a BMW and probably never will

Rodney sir, it is time for you to dyno cars or otherwise conduct scientifically verifiable before and after tests on at least 2 cars, audited by some forummers. Not doing so after 50 forum pages of success is ridiculous if someone like shaun can still intelligently challenge the science behind your commentary. And you cannot deny that the 'seat of the pants' dyno is often misplaced.

Yes it will cost money but that's an investment in your business and becomes endlessly usable marketing material for you. And you can compensate for the front end invesment by raising the price of your mods by 3-5%, even if you feel that the flood of new business coming in from referalls across all the various forums does not adequately make up for your dyno etc costs.

You can ask but it won't happen. Or it won't be a controlled test. There will always be a market for unquantified stuff. An extreme example is that stupid powerbalance wrist band.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

So by this logic, a stock car has brakes that can slow down your car, should you upgrade?

Not quite the same because if I stick a logger on a car and take it through 10 braking events from 150km/h to 10km/h - one time with stock 3 series brakes and another time with aftermarket brakes intelligently selected by someone, I'd bet 10K sgd the logs would show a clear difference between the two systems. So I can look at it and say.. for this amount of difference is the aftermarket system worth $X?

How much would you bet you see a clear difference in a controlled test between stock coils and your modified coils? A difference large enough that is not overlapped by test variables itself.

 

[MW]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Same goes for Juicebox/Powerbox and Velocity and previously Sprint Booster but I only see people praising them like they were (or still are) shark's fin for BMW engines...