Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

[masschaoz]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

So much about getting the AD to service PI cars, I'm just wondering whether are there any issues in M cars that are so complex and require special diagnostic tools whereby reputable workshops here cannot handle?

If there isn't, why bother so much about MA adoption? If they don't want want extra business, then be it lor. I bet many owners/aspiring owners can do without the "feel good" factor of walking into their beautiful workshop, but still have the M badge, and keep a good $80k savings in the bank.

this is really up to individuals.. i for one cannot tolerate sin ming autocare those kind of setup, so did not consider PI option..its not just about beautiful workshops.. service recovery of ADs cannot be matched by PIs..

Ever had vehicle breakdown on a saturday 1 Jan, AD activated a team of mechs to fix my car which was towed back to service centre and gave it back to me on 2 Jan, 12 noon.

 

[DriveAllDay]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

If the car is bought from PI, and the international warranty is issued from PI, should the logical process not be going back to PI? Let PI sort it out with AD.

If AD refuses to resolve the issue, it is PI's problem. Cannot fix problem, cannot honour warranty, car owner can always seek legal recourse against PI.

[This is one inherent risk with buying PI/UI cars, and we know that....]

If PI cannot solve, they could either pay AD for the adoption fee and get the car back in order, or address the issue to BMW Asia to direct ADs to undertake the repair. Of course, the costs involved in another matter altogether. But undeniably, this is an issue with the PI, not the AD.

Do bear in mind that the international warranty on a PI car is via PI, not PML/MA.

Actually the two-year International Warranty is issued by BMW the manufacturer, to be honoured anywhere in the world by all authorised dealers. PML added the third year local warranty.

 

[DriveAllDay]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

According to my brit mate, his BMW is well supported thru out Europe... He drove to France or Hungary and ride broke down before and the Local AD towed and serviced his ride w/o warrenty issues.

+1

Exactly. Similarly if you buy a BMW from an AD from California and the car breaks down in New York, the local AD will repair your car and honour your warranty. They just claim the cost back from BMW US.


That's what an authorised dealer do. That's why manufacturer appoints and give special privileges to ADs. Otherwise they would just sell the cars to independent dealers.

 

[ClemZ]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

you know you gonna pay adoption fee. you know you will never be priority.

that is so so true....if u think u pay $30k and be considered to be part of the "Munich Club" then you're so wrong becoz u're seen as a 2nd class citizen and not given 1st priority.

so if u buy PI M3 (nothing wrong with that), then best bring back to independent workshops, dun think about going back to MA, they will only laugh at you .....

If u buy MA car and the car is a lemon, i suggest u leave your car there and insist on taking out a loaner car 1 class higher (ie M3 to M5 loaner) till they resolve all your issues.

 

[DriveAllDay]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

Then the question is what they meant by "adoption"?

Like Stuttgart, if "adoption" means I get my PIed Porky on the same warranty and servcing footing as their Porkies, then ok what.. you can ask for the sun and moon within warranty period "because you have already been adopted and your car is the same as the cars they sold'.

If "adoption" is just about "we only agree to have a look at your car and advice you on the repairs and what to do but you still pay for the repairs even within warranty period hor", then kum lan?

Credit to Stuttgart -- they honoured my self-imported (not PI -- that they wouldn't honour that) no questions asked, and they have been professional, efficient, and helpful.

I fully expect them to troubleshoot manufacturer's problem during the first two years' international warranty, and they have.

Now that my warranty has expired, would I expect anymore service from them? No. They have done their part.

People who bought from Stuttgart will get to enjoy both warranty and servicing for another 3 years. That's the value of the premium they pay on the car.

I would say in this case, fair is fair.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

totoseow

You can disagree, and I would respect your view. You don't have to be rude...

Crude as that analogy sounds, I think totoseow puts in a very applicable parallel to this case. To clarify, there is nothing personal in this discussion, just holding very different perspective. He is right in many ways.

I had this image of the sign posted in a cafe near my place:

"NO OUTSIDE FOOD AND DRINKS ALLOWED IN THIS PREMISE"

I think we can argue whether the outside food & drinks could well be bought from another cafe under the same group, but the cafe has all the rights to decide if it could accept such "outside food and drinks" assuming they are not homogenous. The disclaimer is posted upfront, and patrons are free to choose to dine and drink at that cafe or walk away.

Taking on a principle for a brand, and in this case being an authorized dealer comes with a number of responsibilities. They include building the brand in the country, representing the interest of the manufacturer, and most important of all, taking care of the MANUFACTURER'S CUSTOMERS.

Why should a brand / manufacturer accord the status of an AD to a company not willing to undertake these responsibilities? Might as well go straight to independent dealers.

This becomes an arrangement between say BMW Asia and the local ADs, namely PML and MA. We have no clue what obligations PML and MA have to undertake as ADs.

This does not mean that an AD have to lose money over these responsibilities for PI cars:

1. Honouring factory warranty. This is actually a revenue-neutral exercise. Costs incurred for the warranty work are actually charged back to the manufacturer, so the AD doesn't suffer financial loss. One can even say the higher volume of servicing help cover part of the the AD's overhead.

2. Servicing vehicle after warranty. Counter to what many mentioned in the forum, after sales service is VERY PROFITABLE. Many manufacturers make good money from after sales programme -- no reason why AD cannot.

This is a P&L issue, of which the ADs would have factored and/or projected into their budget and operations. I believe they would undertake both suggestions if they are profitable. However, we are assuming spare capacity and technical issues such as working on a car not yet adopted.

We are back to the scenario - I buy a watch brand X from Sincere - should I approach Hour Glass for servicing or warranty claims? Is it appropriate and logical for HG to turn me down and refer me back to Sincere, even though HG is also an AD and could well do a favour by sending the watch to the agent for servicing.

Do note that Hour Glass would be undertaking some risks while doing so (example mishandling of a non-customer's watch, scratches, nicks....). What's the business rationale of doing such favour, assuming the local agent did not specify what Hour Glass must undertake as a distributor.

Now, if the local agent HAS specify the obligations of all distributors, the story will be different.

What is the arrangement between BMW Asia and local ADs on PI/UI cars?

The ONLY reason AD in Singapore ask for adoption fee is to protect their OUTSIZE PROFIT MARGIN.

By OUTSIZE I mean when PROFIT MARGIN is HIGHER than SELLING PRICE of the same car in another country.

E.g. My Boxster's selling price in UK was SGD80K. Stuttgart makes SGD90K in profits for the same car. Where is the logic in that?

There is no logic. Cause there is only one AD. Supernormal profits, in economic terms.

Wait.

We have other avenues to own the car. Hence Parallel Imports and Used Imports. That's why I had a PI car instead of buying from AD. That's why you imported a Boxster from UK, That's why we have PI as site sponsor in this forum.

The question I asked myself in choosing the PI route - am I entering this deal with my eyes open? I sure know the savings. But do I know what my PI workshop can undertake in fulfilling its warranty terms and servicing? Do I know the obligations of the AD on my car?

If I do, it is a fair trade to me. Go ahead and buy a PI/UI car.

If I don't, would I be prudent to do some research and reason that - perhaps, this PI/UI route is no free lunch, and carries some risks insofar as servicing/warranty is concerned?

 

[kenntona]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

Actually the two-year International Warranty is issued by BMW the manufacturer, to be honoured anywhere in the world by all authorised dealers. PML added the third year local warranty.

Yes, the question is - is the PI categorised as an authorised dealer (under BMW AG) in this case? No, so are the ADs carrying the legal obligations to undertake the warranty on my car? With my PI 335, I have to service at my PI's workshop and all claims have to be executed through them. They will sort it out with PML.

I know the rules before I bought the car.

I am sure my warranty terms would not have held had I bypass my PI's authorised workshop and went direct to PML or BVO or Boss to service my car instead. That was an arrangement between me and the PI. I am sure most PI works in the same manner.

 

[kik24]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

Hi guys, i think this topic is good info for buyers. Not everyone knows what to expect from buying a PI or Used import, if so do at your own peril. For those that know their way around it is an option worth to take a look at especially if you like to add EXTRAS to your car. Since warranty and other issues are not on the main agenda it is worth to note that the saving on a PI car can substantial. On the other hand , being a Singaporean we expect everything to run smoothly and if you buy from an AD then no worrys. I mean even after your warranty period is over, the AD will still look after you. You pay for what you get.

But i do think that MA & PML are right to charge an adoption fee for PI cars. But what brought us here is the article in the magazine about the expat who did not do his homework and expects his money to clear everything. Its a 2nd hand import used car, factory warranty is over, local warranty given by the PI is over too. So what did he expect. Got money then wait for the the car to be ordered. And slowly wait for the 50% return on his purchase price. I dont think it was the AD's who srewed him over but the guy who sold him the car.

 

[DriveAllDay]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

Crude as that analogy sounds, I think totoseow puts in a very applicable parallel to this case. To clarify, there is nothing personal in this discussion, just holding very different perspective. He is right in many ways.

I have no issue with his analogies -- that's his views. I however take issue with him criticising others

We are back to the scenario - I buy a watch brand X from Sincere - should I approach Hour Glass for servicing or warranty claims? Is it appropriate and logical for HG to turn me down and refer me back to Sincere, even though HG is also an AD and could well do a favour by sending the watch to the agent for servicing.

Do note that Hour Glass would be undertaking some risks while doing so (example mishandling of a non-customer's watch, scratches, nicks....). What's the business rationale of doing such favour, assuming the local agent did not specify what Hour Glass must undertake as a distributor.

Interesting you should use watch company as analogy. I bought a couple of watches while on holidays. A couple of years later one needed adjustment and the other needed needed service. Sincere Watch adjusted one FOC, and happily sent the other in for me to service -- I paid the charges of course.

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

I have no issue with his analogies -- that's his views. I however take issue with him criticising others




Interesting you should use watch company as analogy. I bought a couple of watches while on holidays. A couple of years later one needed adjustment and the other needed needed service. Sincere Watch adjusted one FOC, and happily sent the other in for me to service -- I paid the charges of course.

How much was the adoption fee for the watch ?

 

[DriveAllDay]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

Yes, the question is - is the PI categorised as an authorised dealer (under BMW AG) in this case? No, so are the ADs carrying the legal obligations to undertake the warranty on my car? With my PI 335, I have to service at my PI's workshop and all claims have to be executed through them. They will sort it out with PML.

I know the rules before I bought the car.

I am sure my warranty terms would not have held had I bypass my PI's authorised workshop and went direct to PML or BVO or Boss to service my car instead. That was an arrangement between me and the PI. I am sure most PI works in the same manner.

Well I think the whole definition of a manufacturer's worldwide guarantee is that: regardless of where or who you buy the car from, you should be able to send your car to an authorised dealer or a and approved workshop.

Technically it doesn't matter if you send the car to your PI or the AD to service your car. Either workshop would still claim warranty costs from the manufacturer.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

Interesting you should use watch company as analogy. I bought a couple of watches while on holidays. A couple of years later one needed adjustment and the other needed needed service. Sincere Watch adjusted one FOC, and happily sent the other in for me to service -- I paid the charges of course.

The question is - are you already a client of Sincere, or you simply walk in and they sent the watch (bought elsewhere) to service for you?

Well I think the whole definition of a manufacturer's worldwide guarantee is that: regardless of where or who you buy the car from, you should be able to send your car to an authorised dealer or a and approved workshop.

Technically it doesn't matter if you send the car to your PI or the AD to service your car. Either workshop would still claim warranty costs from the manufacturer.

There are two issues here - warranty and servicing.

The international warranty issues will be undertaken by the AD, but I suspect the channel of approach has to be via the PI's workshop to AD and NOT directly from PI car owner to AD.

The servicing aspect is a questionable one. It is a business decision at the AD level, under warranty claims which is charged to regional level. As I have said, we have no clue what are the obligations of AD to PI/UI cars as far as servicing is concerned. Perhaps, even BMW Asia has no covenance over AD's role in servicing PI/UI cars.

 

[detach8]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

I think the main point is the adoption fee. If I send a PI car to PML for example... fine, charge me parts and/or labour. But for an adoption fee (was it $25k?) is insane and simply a rip off.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

I think the main point is the adoption fee. If I send a PI car to PML for example... fine, charge me parts and/or labour. But for an adoption fee (was it $25k?) is insane and simply a rip off.

Look at this from a different angle.

Based on arbitrage theory, the adoption fee is levied to "equate" a PI/UI car with an AD car.

So, given than all other parameters such as specs, COEs are the same, as long as the adoption fee is smaller than the price difference between an AD car and a PI/UI car, why is is necessarily "insane and simply a rip-off"?

 

[golfgti]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

anyway MA has every right not to accept PI cars so be it. They decide what they wish to communicate to potential customers

 

[Niva]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

The question is - are you already a client of Sincere, or you simply walk in and they sent the watch (bought elsewhere) to service for you?


There are two issues here - warranty and servicing.

The international warranty issues will be undertaken by the AD, but I suspect the channel of approach has to be via the PI's workshop to AD and NOT directly from PI car owner to AD.

The servicing aspect is a questionable one. It is a business decision at the AD level, under warranty claims which is charged to regional level. As I have said, we have no clue what are the obligations of AD to PI/UI cars as far as servicing is concerned. Perhaps, even BMW Asia has no covenance over AD's role in servicing PI/UI cars.

I believe this sums up everything?

International warranty will still be honoured by ADs, the question is just the channel of approach.
Those who buy from PI go back to PI who then deal with AD directly and AD buyer obviously directly to AD to solve.

I agree servicing is up to AD if they want to or not.

Then my question is why pay adoption fee? normal servicing to PI or other bmw focused shops and manufacture defect to PI who then goes back to AD. AD cannot refuse right going by the consensus that international warranty has to be honoured regardless.

Can we then complain to BMW Asia or higher or even take legal actions should AD refuse PI cars with manufacture defect?

 

[Niva]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

I dont think we are attacking the crust of the issue. Size of adoption fee is relative and discretionary to ADs....huge to some, small change to others...but rather we should be disputing the rationale of the adoption fee that is being communicated to the public....

The adoption fee is being communicated to the public that it is necessary before they even consider "touching" the car when ADs are bounded by the international warranty to honour it when it comes to manufacture defect. Why are they giving the excuse that some bros here mention that they are out of money and hence they must pay adoption fee in order to even get a initial inspection? To me, if international warranty stands as most agree, what ADs are communicating to us is a deliberate lie? No?!

 

[kenntona]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

Then my question is why pay adoption fee? normal servicing to PI or other bmw focused shops and manufacture defect to PI who then goes back to AD. AD cannot refuse right going by the consensus that international warranty has to be honoured regardless.

Can we then complain to BMW Asia or higher or even take legal actions should AD refuse PI cars with manufacture defect?

I believe the answer lies in whether the warranty has lapsed.

In the case of AD cars, note that AD might not do a FOC repair on AD cars even on manufacture defects. Owner pays. Still, there is a "moral" obligation from the AD, since the car was bought from them.

In the case of PI/UI cars, AD might not even wanna touch it, given that there is no moral or legal obligations involved.

IF the case is within the warranty period, then it is clearcut. PI deals with AD direct. If AD does not honour the international warranty (rightfully or otherwise), the PI will have to take care of it.

 

[Niva]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

I believe the answer lies in whether the warranty has lapsed.

In the case of AD cars, note that AD might not do a FOC repair on AD cars even on manufacture defects. Owner pays. Still, there is a "moral" obligation from the AD, since the car was bought from them.

In the case of PI/UI cars, AD might not even wanna touch it, given that there is no moral or legal obligations involved.

IF the case is within the warranty period, then it is clearcut. PI deals with AD direct. If AD does not honour the international warranty (rightfully or otherwise), the PI will have to take care of it.

If what you say is true that within warranty period, PI cars can still get repaired regardless, my next ride will not be from AD. I am not too sure if most ppl have the same understanding as you. I have been given the impression that PI cars will nvr get a second look from ADs and so the probabilty of warranty claims is zero.

 

[Niva]

Re: Munich Automobile => AD responsibility

May I add that I am somewhat peeved by the perception of some AD customers as well as AD themselves that PI car buyers are stingy and less well off...as if they committed a crime...and they are like second class "citizens". Sporeans really got f up elitist mentality....maybe thats the perception ADs been passing off to their buyers...