Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

[saifywaify]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

I'd laugh at a Merc S600 V12 Biturbo owner with 22 inch rims for example.

damn.. i was just about to order 22s for my 7..

since you're gonna laugh.. better don't

17s on a cayman are pretty lame too

 

[kenntona]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

What's relevant is that I don't give a flying piss on what car you drive as long as you made the decision based on the merits of your needs and not on image. I'd laugh at a Merc S600 V12 Biturbo owner with 22 inch rims for example. Also laugh at a F430 Scud owner who specified leather dash, or a GT3 owner who converted his car to automatic transmission.

Why would you be laughing at others when you champion decision-making based on needs of others and presumably, you know their needs?

Take your strong statement on the F430 Scud owner. A F430 owner could well love the performance of the car, but if the car is only an NSX with the same specs, he would not have paid the same premium. You cannot deny that image plays a part there. And hence I dun see anything wrong with someone who could pay, he wanna pay for a leather dash.

I know of someone who is getting his Maser Gran Turismo soon, but upgrading his rims, and doing up some aesthetic mods. I guess you would laugh at him.

I know of someone who drives a Maser MC Victory with bodykits so expensive he cannot lower his ride. I guess you would laugh at him.

I know of many who drive E46 318, E90 320, E60 520 and modded their cars so tastefully on the aesthetic and handling aspects. I guess you would laugh at them too.

 

[DoggieHowser]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

OOOooo man, I'd hate to see what my last 25 posts were abt

 

[PerverTT]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

I don't own a Porky but I like reading about them. Doesn't matter which model ... as long as its not the Cayenne. Not just Porkies, but other performance cars as well (yes, even Mercedes and Audi). I don't think that its just me. Most of the people on this forum appreciate a good car, irrespective of where it is from. Just look at the number of people who've dropped in to look at BorisRS's car. We all like and admire our Bimmers, but a bit of variety makes life a lot more interesting.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

i rest my case.

geez you counted your posts??

so why are the rest pretenders anyway..

Just a quick search of my last 25 posts was easy enough. I don't think anybody is consciously pretending ... if they were it would be less obvious.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

saify: yeah the 17 inchers suck so bad I look away. But they're light, and the ride is good. I am thinking of TE37 now, for somewhat the same ride quality, and thinner tyre profile, but ugly like piss.

Kennsaify: yeah the 17 inchers suck so bad I look away. But they're light, and the ride is good. I am thinking of TE37 now, for somewhat the same ride quality, and thinner tyre profile, but ugly like piss.

Kenntona, if somebody actually WANTS it it's fine. I don't question their needs at all. But if somebody wants certain things FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS' APPROVAL then I laugh. The examples I chose were extremes - 22 inchers on a S600V12biturbo can't be something somebody inherently wants for themselves, but what they want to SHOW others on how big their dick is. Leather on a F430 Scud, a bad riding, track oriented machine, thriving on low weight, why add 20kg to the thing? Just to show the passengers, because he's terrified that passengers will comment about how cheap the plastics look, that's why.

I am not against aesthetic mods at all, as long that it's required by the owner, and not for the sake of the approval of others.

Doogie - Most of them - they were about the GTR. What that did to me was that it transformed my dismissive attitude towards it as a heavy pig of a car to something much more appreciative - a potential car which can carry me up to KL with my kid instead of my Odyssey. But of course, once I have 2 kids, I'd have to sell it again, but the point is that your posts changed my attitude.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

arrgh... I realise the strong reaction now....

I said the word `pretenders' in the title.

And many took offense.

Sorry, in `pretenders' I meant - pretenders to the throne - not really `pretenders' from the bottom of my heart.

LOL stupid use of language.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Kenntona, if somebody actually WANTS it it's fine. I don't question their needs at all. But if somebody wants certain things FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS' APPROVAL then I laugh. The examples I chose were extremes - 22 inchers on a S600V12biturbo can't be something somebody inherently wants for themselves, but what they want to SHOW others on how big their dick is. Leather on a F430 Scud, a bad riding, track oriented machine, thriving on low weight, why add 20kg to the thing? Just to show the passengers, because he's terrified that passengers will comment about how cheap the plastics look, that's why.

I am not against aesthetic mods at all, as long that it's required by the owner, and not for the sake of the approval of others.

I dun think anyone would do anything simply to garner others' approval (acceptance is a better word) - from modding cars to buying a watch. It has to do with choices and preferences on an individual level. It is sad that many times the decision making process do not show rationale. It is here that I find a flawed logic in your assessment of others' choices and preferences of mods.

Very flawed logic, in fact. Lemme cite your examples.

Example 1: Someone who wanna fit 22" rims on their cars do it because they want the car to look good, not necessarily a mod to attract praises or compliments, or to gain acceptance. Sure, the latter might follow the mods, but the owner has to derive the feel-good factor first. Sacrificng performance you say? Well, many E90 320s here are running 18" instead of 17" or 16". Some Evos are running 18" too. Not rational?

Example 2: Leather on a scud. Sure, it adds more weight. For the same reason, I dun quite understand the needs for ICE (which could add up 20 to 30 kgs) in some track cars. No, in fact, we should close the ICE folder. Cause it is a stupid mod. No, wait, it looks worse on those who stripped their rides of comfy seats and replace with light weight Recaro or Bride seats and then add 20 kgs of ICE. Hmmm....... I will not be surprised to find some M3s or Porsches heavily ICEd up. But what if luxury is a need for some? What if music is a priority for someone who could not care about 1 second faster than his stock specs from zero to hundred?

Human feeling not as linear as the dyno chart you are fixated with huh?

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Good points, as usual. You know, you always raise good points, but I disagree. Why? Because we have our own preferences, and I respect yours. Not that it's worth anything, but it leads to my point.

Your preferences are your own, that's why I respect it.

For your Example 1, the owner puts 22" rims to `feel good'. Feeling good is for himself, but the 2nd stage, WHY does he feel good? Because :

1) He REALLY like the chunky rims, makes him feel like a fierce pimp, or
2) He THINKS that people who see his rims think he's a fierce pimp, so he feels good.

If (2) then he's a 2nd hander.

For your second example, I'm not clear about it, so I won't comment.

What is this second hander I so hate? To act in a second-handed manner is to place something else -- which usually translates to someone else -- above your own grasp of reality. The distinction between a first- and second-hander is not really an issue of the amount of knowledge each has, but whether or not they choose to exercise their own rational judgment. When I say I don't care what their rational judgment is, it's because I'm lazy to know, and I don't want to know. So I shortcut the process to hunt for 2nd handers by looking for their propensity to seek someone else's approval above their own judgment.

(some statements above were borrowed from the net as I do not have enough time to frame my own original material in words as precise as theirs. For more details please read this extract: Howard Roark that's the best extract I could find on this topic)

But the men who place money first go much beyond that. Personal luxury is
a limited endeavor. What they want is ostentation: to show, to stun, to
entertain, to impress others. They're second-handers.

That, precisely, is the deadliness of second-handers. They have no concern for
facts, ideas, work. They're concerned only with people. They dont ask: Is this
true? They ask: Is this what others think is true? Not to judge, but to
repeat. Not to do, but to give the impression of doing. Not creation, but show.

I think your second-handers understand this, try as they might not to admit it
to themselves. Notice how theyll accept anything except a man who stands alone.
They recognize him at once. By instinct. Theres a special, insidious kind of
hatred for him. They forgive criminals. They admire dictators. Crime and
violence are a tie. A form of mutual dependence. They need ties. Theyve got to
force their miserable little personalities on every single person they meet. The
independent man kills them--because they dont exist within him and thats the
only form of existence they know. Notice the malignant kind of resentment
against any idea that propounds independence. Notice the malice toward an
independent man.

I dun think anyone would do anything simply to garner others' approval (acceptance is a better word) - from modding cars to buying a watch. It has to do with choices and preferences on an individual level. It is sad that many times the decision making process do not show rationale. It is here that I find a flawed logic in your assessment of others' choices and preferences of mods.

Very flawed logic, in fact. Lemme cite your examples.

Example 1: Someone who wanna fit 22" rims on their cars do it because they want the car to look good, not necessarily a mod to attract praises or compliments, or to gain acceptance. Sure, the latter might follow the mods, but the owner has to derive the feel-good factor first. Sacrificng performance you say? Well, many E90 320s here are running 18" instead of 17" or 16". Some Evos are running 18" too. Not rational?

Example 2: Leather on a scud. Sure, it adds more weight. For the same reason, I dun quite understand the needs for ICE (which could add up 20 to 30 kgs) in some track cars. No, in fact, we should close the ICE folder. Cause it is a stupid mod. No, wait, it looks worse on those who stripped their rides of comfy seats and replace with light weight Recaro or Bride seats and then add 20 kgs of ICE. Hmmm....... I will not be surprised to find some M3s or Porsches heavily ICEd up. But what if luxury is a need for some? What if music is a priority for someone who could not care about 1 second faster than his stock specs from zero to hundred?

Human feeling not as linear as the dyno chart you are fixated with huh?

 

[PerverTT]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Very well put, caySman. But I would not confine your logic to mods alone. There are those who buy cars from European marques not because of their engineering or driving qualities, but because of the need to impress and to make a statement about their social aspirations. They buy a BMW or a Porsche primarily to set themselves above their peers. This category of social climbing aspirant is avidly sought out by purveyors of luxury goods, who unashamedly pander to the snobbish attitudes of their clients. The latest cars, the most expensive watches, the newest phones - these are the hallmarks of the status seeker. These shallow individuals are not enthusiasts. They deserve to be treated with derision.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Very well put, caySman. But I would not confine your logic to mods alone. There are those who buy cars from European marques not because of their engineering or driving qualities, but because of the need to impress and to make a statement about their social aspirations. They buy a BMW or a Porsche primarily to set themselves above their peers. This category of social climbing aspirant is avidly sought out by purveyors of luxury goods, who unashamedly pander to the snobbish attitudes of their clients. The latest cars, the most expensive watches, the newest phones - these are the hallmarks of the status seeker. These shallow individuals are not enthusiasts. They deserve to be treated with derision.

Well put yourself. I was just quoting from well known sources of this phenomenon of 2nd handedness. The 2nd hander in myself understands what you wrote fundamentally, that's why I wished the NSX were still alive, so I would have bought a Japo car made by an econobox company instead of a stupid P-car which puts me on the firing line. No I'm not afraid, but just don't want to be targeted. it is a weakness nevertheless.

Question is, you understand it all - why aren't you hated? They should have automatically and instinctively seeked you out and tried to destroy you.

 

[Puny]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Let's not turn the heat up on this thread. I read through most of the articles and found it informative. The Z06 really shows its improvements over the previous model.

caySman, the title is quite provocative indeed lah, and it may seem sometimes that you portray your ownership of the Cayman as a "compromise", yet it truly is a great car. Confusing at times.

 

[Crufty Dusty]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

arrgh... I realise the strong reaction now....

I said the word `pretenders' in the title.

And many took offense.

Sorry, in `pretenders' I meant - pretenders to the throne - not really `pretenders' from the bottom of my heart.

LOL stupid use of language.

There's nothing wrong with the use of the language. It is entirely correct; perhaps the etymology of the word is in order.

The 911 is an iconic car that has long been the "King of the Hill" so to speak, deservedly or not. Thus the word "pretender" in this context means an "aspirant" or a "claimant".

 

[joshdway]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

caySman:

i read this tread with much interest.

to be honest, there were times when i feel that you might be carrying your fascination for your porker abit too far.
firstly, your userid 'screams' your caymanS. some might take it as a self advertisement of which marque you are running?
secondly, you do have quite abit of postings on P cars. which on its own may not be a bad thing, because it gives an interesting read and personally its great for lazy pple like me cuz it make it a much easier read for me

I am a big fan of both P cars and BMWs. they are both great cars in many ways (disclaimer: to the fans of other great marques, i am not discounting them in anyway). but thing is, this is a forum. where other than the regulars, most forumers only read writings (which can often be interpreted in many ways), and not know another on a personal basis. I remember another forumer wrote that he has a fren who knows you who said good things about you. so you can't be all bad. but its understandable for some to be upset because you seem to b singing praises abt another marque in a bmw forum.

I do not think that most of the forumers here are against P cars or yourself. I also remember another post where someone acquired a new 997 C2S and posted something about it. many others congratulated him on his new purchase and left good comments abt his machine. difference is, he is probably more familiar with most of them here and he doesnt seem to have so much Pcar related postings.

looking at the way you write, i assume you are quite a mature character, possibly more so than myself. so let me urge you to take things (read postings) with a pinch of salt. this is after all a forum, on the internet. pple tend to be alot more vocal here, hence the recent coining of words such as 'internet hero', 'keyboard warrior' etc...

I am sure that alot of forumers here including myself do not post on a regular basis, they read and browse. not so much that they do not or have nothing to contribute. just that sometimes a well meaning post can go unappreciated or worse still, misinterpreted. i for that reason, do not post much. if any of us walk into a meeting and propose an idea to a room of say 50 pple, i am sure we will get 50 opinions. and there is no 'right' or 'wrong' opinion too

sometimes it is the way we phrase it, word it too. but even if we try to be careful abt the words, there's always a case of honest misinterpretation. it just the way things are.

but let me say this, i am with you on the 2nd handers. i do not think much of such characters (i might get slammed for this too, but hey, its my opinion and mine only, no one else need to agree with me, so for the rest who might not, please bear with me). but its not for us to judge who are such characters, because we might not know them, or well enough to. so we should just let them be

you are clearly a car fanatic. and i can say that this forum does not have any biases against other marques which are why they have an 'other marques' folder. though if one was to read everything with a magnifying glass, the words 'other performance cars' may seem abit arrogant (so mods, if its a good idea, how abt renaming it to just 'other marques'?)

To the rest:

i have read caySman stating in other car forums that he enjoys his stay and time here because there's alot of forumers who are true car enthusiasts. and to a certain extent, he even defended talk that there seems to be more off topic chats here this days.

we are all here because of our love for good machines, bmws or something else. from time to time, we may have slight disagreements but live and let live. its good to have a healthy discussion and alternative thoughts thrown at us.

having said all that, i just wish to state my thoughts abt it and hopefully not have my userid dragged thru the mud since i have opened up my thoughts.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Puny - could you change my nick to something else, like, centurion or something?

Crufty - It's a stupid use of the word - my fault - should have foreseen adverse reaction due to ambiguity and trust the hawks to pounce on it. While saify did not see the ambiguity, and thus innocent victim of my careless use of the correct word, toto saw the ambiguity and fired away, to his credit. Hey, there's lots of other words to use, say, challenger, but my mind just reached for the most appropriate word possibly because I was in a rush to read the article itself.

Joshdway - I'm sure Ryan understands the 2nd handers in this forum, and he's utterly aware of `other performance marques' sounds bad to the unpretentious, but hey, he's supplying the server and I'm sure in this business `the customer is always right'. After all, the majority of premium brand cars are indeed purchased for status and prestiege, and so Ryan has good gut instinct at the very least. Just like Audi wants us to wear a jacket to a car launch.

This nick was created simply - with a limited purpose - to enable a friend to fish for expert comments regarding the BMW Z4 Coupe 3.0SI vs the Cayman (which resulted in me buying it instead) so I can't help the stupid nick still shouting out embarassingly. If possible I hope the admins can change it to something else like MatRempit or bimmerfan or just something else ...!

Taking things with a pinch of salt - sure, definitely. I've given up trying to change the world, it's their hell, take it and I'll just survive in my little bubble. I'm a pretty salty guy.

 

[ACSCAB2]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

no wonder Saify hated me after i bot my Porker but started sendin me love SMSes after I sold it....

True Love...

 

[saifywaify]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

no wonder Saify hated me after i bot my Porker but started sendin me love SMSes after I sold it....

True Love...

yes true love.. the type that makes your heart beat faster just by a simple touch..........

anyway.

so who's going for the r8 launch?

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

yes true love.. the type that makes your heart beat faster just by a simple touch..........

anyway.

so who's going for the r8 launch?

I am going for the R8 launch but need to dress up super formal. Not used to it. Just like how long i have not worn a lungi.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Lemme just put my thoughts against some of your sweeping statements across without you trying to cry foul and play victim to garner sympathy votes. We are simply exchanging viewpoints here, so I do not quite buy your version of forumers hating you and "automatically and instinctively seeked you out and tried to destroy you." You know that's carrying it way too far........

Sorry, admin, this reply is not a heated rebuttal. Treat it like an exchange of thoughts. Specifically, I just wanna to point out the flaw in CaySman's train of thoughts with reference to our car mods and selection....... it is relevant insofar a car forum is concerned, and I am quite free this morning.......

Good points, as usual. You know, you always raise good points, but I disagree. Why? Because we have our own preferences, and I respect yours. Not that it's worth anything, but it leads to my point. Your preferences are your own, that's why I respect it.

Preference is the word. Glad you said it.......

For your Example 1, the owner puts 22" rims to `feel good'. Feeling good is for himself, but the 2nd stage, WHY does he feel good? Because :

1) He REALLY like the chunky rims, makes him feel like a fierce pimp, or
2) He THINKS that people who see his rims think he's a fierce pimp, so he feels good.

You went on and black-label the 2nd hander. This is where it goes all wrong...... Lemme illustrate.

Some, if not most, of the forumers here would have gone through this thought process. Picked up the car from dealer, drove for a while, decided that stock rims are not nice or good enough. Decided to get something bigger.... 18" or 19" or 20". Well, following your functional train of thought, weight will be the ONLY consideration. But the fact is that WEIGHT is NOT the only consideration. So the driver decides to try all kinds of brands. As such, you dun see only one brand on the shelf. Is this consumerism? Hardly. It is preference - you'd said it. And you said you will respect it.

What went wrong here? In the typical mods decision, we went through this process - (1) recognising a want and motivated to achieve it - be it bigger rims or CF trims - functionality is not the only consideration
(2) information and research - ask around, checking prices, checking vendors
(3) comparing alternatives, forming own basis of judgement
(4) purchase or mod it
(5) evaluation for overall mods/purchase - happy? Need fine-tuning?

Your citation of the second hander here is hardly applicable in our mod process. In fact, it is a poisoning-the-well type of argument. I doubt there is a majority of us who will actually mod or buy car parts like a "second-hander" above our own "grasp of reality." Go through the process I have listed and ask if "whether or not they choose to exercise their own rational judgment." When a forumer upgrades his rims to a bigger size, he is not necessarily showing "propensity to seek someone else's approval above their own judgment." Certainly not in the 22" rim owner case. More often than not, he likes it - be it rims, bodykit, ICE, or whatever you deemed less than functional - more so than what others think. I encourage you to turn up for the meetup to see the diversity of tastes and preferences of mods (you'd said you respect preferences). I can assure you most, if not all, do car-things without a second-hander propensity. Hence I think your extrapolation of your second-hander theory on car mods and the examples cited are erroneous.

To act in a second-handed manner is to place something else -- which usually translates to someone else -- above your own grasp of reality. The distinction between a first- and second-hander is not really an issue of the amount of knowledge each has, but whether or not they choose to exercise their own rational judgment. When I say I don't care what their rational judgment is, it's because I'm lazy to know, and I don't want to know. So I shortcut the process to hunt for 2nd handers by looking for their propensity to seek someone else's approval above their own judgment.

So, what went wrong?

Your analysis assumes a decision-making matrix heavily-weighted on your advocated aspects - functionality & performance. However, you'd failed to recognise and respect that the matrix is vastly different in other drivers' mind. They could be enthusiasts too, but the perception of value and priorities are different. Their matrix could be skewed to other factors ranked lowly in your matrix. You have to look into their lifestyles and needs to be able to make such a strong advocacy. Look at this argument......

That, precisely, is the deadliness of second-handers. They have no concern for facts, ideas, work. They're concerned only with people. They dont ask: Is this true? They ask: Is this what others think is true? Not to judge, but to repeat. Not to do, but to give the impression of doing. Not creation, but show.

You can use the argument on owners who bought their cars without checking - simply because of the marque. Then again, who would not have done any research and buy simply for the showmanship? It is very simplistic to assume people are naive to buy a marque for the branding alone. Back to the matrix theory, some would place other variables on their matrices with higher weightings - for that reason, you have 520 and M5 owners living in the same forum, 320 and M3 owners coming together. To each his own.

Interestingly, when I picked up my new ride, someone at BVO came up to me and commented that I should track my 335. He lamented (jokingly) that I was a poseur in my 4-potter cabrio days, and I should not be a poseur now. The fact of the matter is - after your posts, I am caught in a dilemma. I am not a trackie. Was never one. Now, if I dun track, I am deemed a poseur (a second-hander in your definition) - someone who does not fully appreciate the full performance of the car. But if I track, I will become exactly what you have defined - someone who "give the impression of doing." Someone who track because he wanna be accepted. Wow, all of a sudden I am in deep shit. Either way I am damned.

Then I started thinking, wow, I buy watches with functions I dun use - world time, chrono, minute repeater, perpetual calendar - I will be deemed to be a second-hander. A casio quartz will just do. Let's all switch to a Casio. It serves the same function of time-telling..... Or do I know something that those calling me second-handers dun? I have other variables that I ranked highly in my matrix that did not even show up in their list? So, whose matrix should we use?

Oh, a Cayman S better be the best in its category, else it will be a second-hander purchase. It's a freaking Porsche, for car enthusiasts' sake. The buyers are obviously not buying to show, but purely on its product merits. That's the only variable on their purchase decision matrix. No brand premium. Just kidding - knowing that you probably is a owner of a Cayman S. But I hope you see my point. You have made very presumptuous and assuming statements..... but the flaws of generalisation are spotted all over.

I'm sure Ryan understands the 2nd handers in this forum, and he's utterly aware of `other performance marques' sounds bad to the unpretentious, but hey, he's supplying the server and I'm sure in this business `the customer is always right'. After all, the majority of premium brand cars are indeed purchased for status and prestiege, and so Ryan has good gut instinct at the very least.

There are those who buy cars from European marques not because of their engineering or driving qualities, but because of the need to impress and to make a statement about their social aspirations.

It sounds like a dichotomy. Either you are buying based on merits, or based on Maslow's needs to gain acceptance. Hmmm......again, your matrix has only few variables - performance, qualities....... your neighbours' purchase has more variables, hence higher level of irrationality involved. Dun get me know, I know where you are coming from, but the fact is that car buyers are not at all acting as if the decision is a dichotomous binary option. In reality, it is a composite of all kinds of variables. Branding, quality, performance, after-sales service............. And there is no way to tell whose matrix is weighed heavier in which aspect.

A E200 or 320i owner could have bought it based on branding (your social aspirations theory), another could have bought it based on his perception of performance. Now, his perception of comfort vs performance is different from yours. Is it fair to judge him based on your matrix, which is skewed based on your needs? Think about the poor 4-potter bimmers here. I owned two before. And I know the frustration when so-called performance purists like caySman smeared the engine down. But perhaps many owners do not need the performance of a 6-potter in city driving? Does that necessarily means these owners (myself inclusive) are showboats? Even if they are, how could you tell?

And please, dun make that statement about Ryan. Sure, he is supplying the server, but he has never been a patronising person because we are his "customers." He is rather fair and unpretentious.

....... instead of a stupid P-car which puts me on the firing line. No I'm not afraid, but just don't want to be targeted. it is a weakness nevertheless. Question is, you understand it all - why aren't you hated? They should have automatically and instinctively seeked you out and tried to destroy you.

Like I have said, let's not discuss based on emotionally-charged premises. You know you are not hated here. And you are not on the firing line because of your Porky ownership. You are not targeted. Nobody wanna destroy you.

So, stop the whining and I-am-so-victimised crap and start living out of your salty world. This is a forum, not a cubicle. Peace.

 

[Mockngbrd]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

I am going for the R8 launch but need to dress up super formal. Not used to it. Just like how long i have not worn a lungi.

wat's a lungi