Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

[totoseow]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

something like langa. i think must be ching chiong looking type of clothes...macham langa.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Kenn, you are always a great foil, one of the reasons why I like this forum above all other SG forums. I like a good debate, so don't worry about being frank. I have never worried about frankness myself. And debating with a passionate person is all about bliss. I only hope that when you are writing so much passion, you actually read your opponent's posts and try your level best to understand it.

On your addressing my analysis of the 22" pimpmobile, what you did not address was: WHY does he feel good with the 22" rims? If he feels good NOT from his own heart, but because he THINKS that people will admire his rims, then he is a 2nd hander, simple as that.

In fact, that you dismissed the 2nd hander theories without addressing convincingly the internal motivations on why one wants to mod, for his own pleasure, or the perceived prestiege he will gain because of the mod, is unfair dismissal.

[yaay while I was typing I received notification that my nick changed to CENTURION]

With regard to your examples of motivation WHY people buy things like watches, tracking, etc. it is exactly the thing I do not want to get into. Because they are only assertions. Thus I suggested, to find a 2nd hander, what you need to do is to find that they are doing it FOR the sake of others' perceived approval. It is difficult to point the pleasure as coming from HIMSELF only, because pleasure is a private thing, difficult to prove, only speculate.

And I have never generalized. Some people mod for RATIONAL REASONS. Some people mod for prestiege. The only way to find out who does the former and who does the latter is analysis and in depth look. I am not saying that all modders at poseurs, far from it! What I'm saying is a statement of principle, to crystallize that there are 2 types of modders, the 2nd handers and the people who mod for their own pleasure.

Heh ... sometimes I think you as an Obsfuscator, one who obsfucates the main message as a technique to win. Which is a valid technique which I have to counter, so the obsfucation, if you intend, is fully to your credit. I am very clear - all debators are opponents, to be respected. nothing personal at all.

As to your assertion that buying decisions are based on many factors, TRUE 100%. Because a big proportion of the world as I see it are 2nd handers. But that's besides the point.

E200 and 320i purchase - MAY be 2nd hander, may not. I am not making any judgment, nor do I want to, nor do I even speculate. Always remember, to NOT be a second hander, you just need to exercise rational judgment. Incompleteness of information while exercising rational judgment does not make him a 2nd hander. As you mentioned - there are valid reasons to buy a 4 potter, including the incredible fuel economy BMW has achieved for some valvetronic versions. BUT you must get the point - if somebody bought a BMW, any one, because he wanted to impress others, the judgment is simple - he is a 2nd hander. If anybody bought it for their own pleasure, most of the time it is difficult to see how the car made him happy for himself, but it is easier to see that he bought it for the approval of others, for prestiege - they may even admit it - then you know you have found a 2nd hander.

And for Ryan, let him SAY it. Himself. Why are you trying to speculate on his motivations? I have found him a great person from his posts, but when I am saying that he has commercial savvy, it is a POSITIVE POINT and does NOT mean that he is NOT fair and pretentious - though your preconceived notions seemed to have made `commercial savvy' = `evil'. Wrong. I admire commercial savvy.

As for `destroy me' that's a drama-mamatization. But the truth is this - people like Shaun, myself, people who don't conform, are always made a target. Like toto, to his credit, is targetting me at every opportunity. You, kenn, seem to be innocent. But don't misunderstand - since many many years ago, I have ceased to take anything personally save when they try to target my family. So toto's exercise, is an interesting thing to me which I am looking at to see the extent of human motivations, to understand him as a person, behind all those OT jokes, what kind of person he is.

What you didn't quote regarding the `destroy me' point is this citation:

I think your second-handers understand this, try as they might not to admit it
to themselves. Notice how theyll accept anything except a man who stands alone.
They recognize him at once. By instinct. Theres a special, insidious kind of
hatred for him. They forgive criminals. They admire dictators. Crime and
violence are a tie. A form of mutual dependence. They need ties. Theyve got to
force their miserable little personalities on every single person they meet. The
independent man kills them--because they dont exist within him and thats the
only form of existence they know. Notice the malignant kind of resentment
against any idea that propounds independence. Notice the malice toward an
independent man.

 

[saifywaify]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

wahlan eh ken..

if you proposed to me like this, i'd say yes (sorry omar) .

but yeah.. centurion. what ken said.

Lemme just put my thoughts against some of your sweeping statements across without you trying to cry foul and play victim to garner sympathy votes. We are simply exchanging viewpoints here, so I do not quite buy your version of forumers hating you and "automatically and instinctively seeked you out and tried to destroy you." You know that's carrying it way too far........

Sorry, admin, this reply is not a heated rebuttal. Treat it like an exchange of thoughts. Specifically, I just wanna to point out the flaw in CaySman's train of thoughts with reference to our car mods and selection....... it is relevant insofar a car forum is concerned, and I am quite free this morning.......


Preference is the word. Glad you said it.......


You went on and black-label the 2nd hander. This is where it goes all wrong...... Lemme illustrate.

Some, if not most, of the forumers here would have gone through this thought process. Picked up the car from dealer, drove for a while, decided that stock rims are not nice or good enough. Decided to get something bigger.... 18" or 19" or 20". Well, following your functional train of thought, weight will be the ONLY consideration. But the fact is that WEIGHT is NOT the only consideration. So the driver decides to try all kinds of brands. As such, you dun see only one brand on the shelf. Is this consumerism? Hardly. It is preference - you'd said it. And you said you will respect it.

What went wrong here? In the typical mods decision, we went through this process - (1) recognising a want and motivated to achieve it - be it bigger rims or CF trims - functionality is not the only consideration
(2) information and research - ask around, checking prices, checking vendors
(3) comparing alternatives, forming own basis of judgement
(4) purchase or mod it
(5) evaluation for overall mods/purchase - happy? Need fine-tuning?

Your citation of the second hander here is hardly applicable in our mod process. In fact, it is a poisoning-the-well type of argument. I doubt there is a majority of us who will actually mod or buy car parts like a "second-hander" above our own "grasp of reality." Go through the process I have listed and ask if "whether or not they choose to exercise their own rational judgment." When a forumer upgrades his rims to a bigger size, he is not necessarily showing "propensity to seek someone else's approval above their own judgment." Certainly not in the 22" rim owner case. More often than not, he likes it - be it rims, bodykit, ICE, or whatever you deemed less than functional - more so than what others think. I encourage you to turn up for the meetup to see the diversity of tastes and preferences of mods (you'd said you respect preferences). I can assure you most, if not all, do car-things without a second-hander propensity. Hence I think your extrapolation of your second-hander theory on car mods and the examples cited are erroneous.



So, what went wrong?

Your analysis assumes a decision-making matrix heavily-weighted on your advocated aspects - functionality & performance. However, you'd failed to recognise and respect that the matrix is vastly different in other drivers' mind. They could be enthusiasts too, but the perception of value and priorities are different. Their matrix could be skewed to other factors ranked lowly in your matrix. You have to look into their lifestyles and needs to be able to make such a strong advocacy. Look at this argument......



You can use the argument on owners who bought their cars without checking - simply because of the marque. Then again, who would not have done any research and buy simply for the showmanship? It is very simplistic to assume people are naive to buy a marque for the branding alone. Back to the matrix theory, some would place other variables on their matrices with higher weightings - for that reason, you have 520 and M5 owners living in the same forum, 320 and M3 owners coming together. To each his own.

Interestingly, when I picked up my new ride, someone at BVO came up to me and commented that I should track my 335. He lamented (jokingly) that I was a poseur in my 4-potter cabrio days, and I should not be a poseur now. The fact of the matter is - after your posts, I am caught in a dilemma. I am not a trackie. Was never one. Now, if I dun track, I am deemed a poseur (a second-hander in your definition) - someone who does not fully appreciate the full performance of the car. But if I track, I will become exactly what you have defined - someone who "give the impression of doing." Someone who track because he wanna be accepted. Wow, all of a sudden I am in deep shit. Either way I am damned.

Then I started thinking, wow, I buy watches with functions I dun use - world time, chrono, minute repeater, perpetual calendar - I will be deemed to be a second-hander. A casio quartz will just do. Let's all switch to a Casio. It serves the same function of time-telling..... Or do I know something that those calling me second-handers dun? I have other variables that I ranked highly in my matrix that did not even show up in their list? So, whose matrix should we use?

Oh, a Cayman S better be the best in its category, else it will be a second-hander purchase. It's a freaking Porsche, for car enthusiasts' sake. The buyers are obviously not buying to show, but purely on its product merits. That's the only variable on their purchase decision matrix. No brand premium. Just kidding - knowing that you probably is a owner of a Cayman S. But I hope you see my point. You have made very presumptuous and assuming statements..... but the flaws of generalisation are spotted all over.



It sounds like a dichotomy. Either you are buying based on merits, or based on Maslow's needs to gain acceptance. Hmmm......again, your matrix has only few variables - performance, qualities....... your neighbours' purchase has more variables, hence higher level of irrationality involved. Dun get me know, I know where you are coming from, but the fact is that car buyers are not at all acting as if the decision is a dichotomous binary option. In reality, it is a composite of all kinds of variables. Branding, quality, performance, after-sales service............. And there is no way to tell whose matrix is weighed heavier in which aspect.

A E200 or 320i owner could have bought it based on branding (your social aspirations theory), another could have bought it based on his perception of performance. Now, his perception of comfort vs performance is different from yours. Is it fair to judge him based on your matrix, which is skewed based on your needs? Think about the poor 4-potter bimmers here. I owned two before. And I know the frustration when so-called performance purists like caySman smeared the engine down. But perhaps many owners do not need the performance of a 6-potter in city driving? Does that necessarily means these owners (myself inclusive) are showboats? Even if they are, how could you tell?

And please, dun make that statement about Ryan. Sure, he is supplying the server, but he has never been a patronising person because we are his "customers." He is rather fair and unpretentious.


Like I have said, let's not discuss based on emotionally-charged premises. You know you are not hated here. And you are not on the firing line because of your Porky ownership. You are not targeted. Nobody wanna destroy you.

So, stop the whining and I-am-so-victimised crap and start living out of your salty world. This is a forum, not a cubicle. Peace.

 

[totoseow]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

eh u come meet me...i m a great guy. serious. small in stature, big in spirit...greater in heart. i m bigger than u think in many ways....

i, too will not conform to the ways people speak in forums. i have my own style and reasoning. i do not hold back, cos for someone like me...there is no need to prove anything to anyone. just like i dun like porkys...n i dun like manual cars...if i dun like u..u will know. in that same breathe, i dun spew what i love all the time as well. i dun go to a getz forum to tell them bmws will beat all pretenders like is250 etc..

just an analogy...

if u need to understand me, there is no better way than to meet me in person. tio bo?

if u wanna reply, keep it simple. i dun have the patience to read thru theories or what u feel or what u think. got to run...need to find research on why my coming ferrari will beat a picanto. people in picanto forum dying to know.

 

[saifywaify]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

haha.. brings back particular memories doesn't it? :smack:

i, too will not conform to the ways people speak in forums. i have my own style and reasoning. i do not hold back, cos for someone like me...there is no need to prove anything to anyone. just like i dun like porkys...n i dun like manual cars...if i dun like u..u will know. in that same breathe, i dun spew what i love all the time as well. i dun go to a getz forum to tell them bmws will beat all pretenders like is250 etc..

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Toto, my man.

Man, 50% venomous content! You are a good snake, bro, kudos!

Meeting is nice lah, when we next meet up, we should touch each other's LJ as a gesture of friendliness.

For the record, I never measure people whether they are big or small. I just want to understand. There is no such thing as a BIG man or a SMALL man in my judgement, just a different person, that's all.

The `biggest' people have serious character flaws rendering them down to zero, and the `smallest' people have the same. So, screw the big and small and look upon each others as individuals.

Why do you care whether I think big or small of you anyway? My opinion should be irrelevant.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

haha.. brings back particular memories doesn't it? :smack:

ganging up now huh, based on past memories?

Cool down lah, saify, you don't really need a community to survive one. Gotong Royong kill somebody is quite passe lah...

 

[saifywaify]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

ganging up now huh, based on past memories?

Cool down lah, saify, you don't really need a community to survive one. Gotong Royong kill somebody is quite passe lah...

nono.. i'm not in any gangs. no ganging up.

and i'm easily one of the coolest guys in this forum cos i'm getting 22s!!

haha..

behold the fierce pimp.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

nono.. i'm not in any gangs. no ganging up.

and i'm easily one of the coolest guys in this forum cos i'm getting 22s!!

haha..

behold the fierce pimp.

Makwe approve tak?

 

[Mockngbrd]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

man... wayyy too much text in a thread

 

[saifywaify]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Makwe approve tak?

hmm.. she had her doubts at first but she approves now i'm a mummy's boy..

also.

quite an entertaining thread la, i must say.. proof that men will always be boys............. just whether they admit it or not.

so anyway, lexus isf. thoughts?

 

[kenntona]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

man... wayyy too much text in a thread

Healthy discussion. Way better than one-liner bantering.

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

for a NS cruiser I think they pwn the class with the GS. Because of the pwnage of class with the GS as a cruiser, extending the cruiser chassis to IS and IS-F sports chassis, against other chassis the GS pwned in the cruiser class, is too much of a compromise.

eh.... makwe itu bukan ibu .. teman wanita lah.. (formally)

 

[saifywaify]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

hmm.. is it just me or do you see the lexus "december to remember" ad on this page too?

another side note.. whats with the malay/indon sentences? i don't understand half of what you're saying.. haha.

jack! translate.

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

hmm.. is it just me or do you see the lexus "december to remember" ad on this page too?

another side note.. whats with the malay/indon sentences? i don't understand half of what you're saying.. haha.

jack! translate.

TV Tiga got translation slot. Perhaps you can get some enlightening there.

 

[saifywaify]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

TV Tiga got translation slot. Perhaps you can get some enlightening there.

haha omar.. watch out ah. i'll pee in your shisha.

 

[satinGHOST|r!der]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

haha omar.. watch out ah. i'll pee in your shisha.

 

[kenntona]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

On your addressing my analysis of the 22" pimpmobile, what you did not address was: WHY does he feel good with the 22" rims? If he feels good NOT from his own heart, but because he THINKS that people will admire his rims, then he is a 2nd hander, simple as that. In fact, that you dismissed the 2nd hander theories without addressing convincingly the internal motivations on why one wants to mod, for his own pleasure, or the perceived prestiege he will gain because of the mod, is unfair dismissal.

I read and feel you, dude. I have already addressed the issue of the feel-good factor from the decision making process. I was not dismissing your case - just thought your scenario is very hypothetical and unrealistic insofar as modding is concerned. If your case is valid, I would not have seen so much variety in the mods on wheels, bodykits, ICE in the Super Import Nite. Even in our forum, it is very far-fetched to suggest that forumers mod wheels solely for people to admire ("NOT from his own heart"). Even for the more active forumers, it will still be personal-preference-over-what-people-think mentality. If your assertion is true, many would have gone for bigger size rims just to dress to impress. Could not quite stomach that argument. Perhaps it should be worded this way - I am not dismissing it, just find it hard for you to substantiate that claim.

On a lighter side, think about expensive lingerie or underwear or boxers. Think all buyers are buying to show off? Wrong. Many are singles. Show off to who? It's as simple as a personal feel good factor. It meddles with the topic of consumerism, but does not validate your arguments.

Thus I suggested, to find a 2nd hander, what you need to do is to find that they are doing it FOR the sake of others' perceived approval. It is difficult to point the pleasure as coming from HIMSELF only, because pleasure is a private thing, difficult to prove, only speculate.

I beg to differ. If your assertion is true, there will be massive group-think in terms of mods. Almost everyone will run the same rims, bodykit, spoiler......... In fact, I would propagate that it would be more difficult to prove that people do it for others than to see the pleasure deriving from himself or herself.

And I have never generalized. Some people mod for RATIONAL REASONS. Some people mod for prestiege. The only way to find out who does the former and who does the latter is analysis and in depth look. I am not saying that all modders at poseurs, far from it! What I'm saying is a statement of principle, to crystallize that there are 2 types of modders, the 2nd handers and the people who mod for their own pleasure.

There is another group - those who mod without rationale, but they like it. And they do it knowing it will not necessarily be accepted by all. For instance those who spent $30K and above on ICE, those who go for wide-body conversion and all. Are they for show? No. But they enjoy the mods. Utility derived is so abstract we cannot tell how it can be derived. Only the owner with his own form and basis of enthusiasm could tell. How could you tell? How could you find out via analysis and in-depth look? His or her utility curve is so vastly different from yours !!!

Heh ... sometimes I think you as an Obsfuscator, one who obsfucates the main message as a technique to win. Which is a valid technique which I have to counter, so the obsfucation, if you intend, is fully to your credit. I am very clear - all debators are opponents, to be respected. nothing personal at all.

That's not a fair representation of me. I majored in Marketing and minored in Philosophy, hence I love this thread. It encapsulates both topics. What I did was simply debating on some contentious points that you have brought up. Your "articles" are interesting, but not every point you made is objective. Hence it looks like nick-picking, but those are the gists of the debate. I dun see anything wrong with contesting on the parts if they do not constitute the whole picture.

As to your assertion that buying decisions are based on many factors, TRUE 100%. Because a big proportion of the world as I see it are 2nd handers. But that's besides the point.

E200 and 320i purchase - MAY be 2nd hander, may not. I am not making any judgment, nor do I want to, nor do I even speculate. Always remember, to NOT be a second hander, you just need to exercise rational judgment. Incompleteness of information while exercising rational judgment does not make him a 2nd hander. As you mentioned - there are valid reasons to buy a 4 potter, including the incredible fuel economy BMW has achieved for some valvetronic versions. BUT you must get the point - if somebody bought a BMW, any one, because he wanted to impress others, the judgment is simple - he is a 2nd hander. If anybody bought it for their own pleasure, most of the time it is difficult to see how the car made him happy for himself, but it is easier to see that he bought it for the approval of others, for prestiege - they may even admit it - then you know you have found a 2nd hander.

If I read your first statement of yours correctly, a big proportion of the bimmer enthusiasts are second handers too?

You still could not see and analyse others' matrix? There are many reasons to buy a car, and it sounds extremely myopic if the owner is deemed a second hander if there are any elements suggesting so, even though it is only one of the parameters. Simply because that parameter is not in your matrix.......?

And for Ryan, let him SAY it. Himself. Why are you trying to speculate on his motivations? I have found him a great person from his posts, but when I am saying that he has commercial savvy, it is a POSITIVE POINT and does NOT mean that he is NOT fair and pretentious - though your preconceived notions seemed to have made `commercial savvy' = `evil'. Wrong. I admire commercial savvy.

You brought him into the picture. You wrote, "..... but hey, he's supplying the server and I'm sure in this business `the customer is always right'. After all, the majority of premium brand cars are indeed purchased for status and prestiege, and so Ryan has good gut instinct at the very least." Oh well, I guess I mis-read your praises for his "commercial savvy" nature........

As for `destroy me' that's a drama-mamatization. But the truth is this - people like Shaun, myself, people who don't conform, are always made a target. Like toto, to his credit, is targetting me at every opportunity. You, kenn, seem to be innocent. But don't misunderstand - since many many years ago, I have ceased to take anything personally save when they try to target my family. So toto's exercise, is an interesting thing to me which I am looking at to see the extent of human motivations, to understand him as a person, behind all those OT jokes, what kind of person he is.

This I find, is an art, in you. You can combine all the logical fallacies of poisoning the well, argumentum ad personam, ad misericordiam all in few sentences. Clap clap. But that is a sleight of hands. Hard to fool anyone lah.......

Any debate will entail two or more views. There is no conformity of views (and hence the cause of a debate). Now, if there are too few people in one camp, that does not make them natural targets. If the argument is valid, the camp can actually win the other over. Unfortunately, you chose to appeal to emotions. Using Toto and Saify, you seek to appeal to sympathy (ad misericordiam in fallacy), which is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand.

What you didn't quote regarding the `destroy me' point is this citation:

I think your second-handers understand this, try as they might not to admit it to themselves. Notice how theyll accept anything except a man who stands alone. They recognize him at once. By instinct. Theres a special, insidious kind of hatred for him. They forgive criminals. They admire dictators. Crime and violence are a tie. A form of mutual dependence. They need ties. Theyve got to force their miserable little personalities on every single person they meet. The independent man kills them--because they dont exist within him and thats the only form of existence they know. Notice the malignant kind of resentment against any idea that propounds independence. Notice the malice toward an independent man.

This is an interesting quote that glorifies the proponents of the "acclaimed purists". Now that sounds like me taking on the whole forum in the Section 377 debate. Wow, I felt glorified.

Interesting probe to your framework of logic though........

 

[centurion]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

Kenn, again, with respect - you bring up the possibility that people may make a purchase decision based on internal motivations, with satisfaction and happiness based on SELF and not the approval of others. I agree of course. That is a person of integrity. That is possible. But you must also accept that some DO make purchase decisions based on prestiege - what `respect' they get from others. That's a 2nd hander. That's all i am trying to say - there are individualists and there are 2nd handers and everything in between.

As to my ability to poison, I can't comment. What I made was a fair statement, and it might be construed as poison though. But seeking sympathy ... this is not hardwarezone EDMW and it's just not my style. Nor do I require sympathy unless I'm sex starved, even then, I just require a titty magazine.

In the s377 debate, yeah. Though I care not too much about sexuality of people, I sorta saw some sparks fly. But I never had the desire to kick you though, nor any desire to join any mob on either side.

I think few of us are pure first handers or second handers, but it's important to recognize both poles, and evaluate where they stand between. Only then do we realise many things, like why gangs form, how people think and what interests they are trying to defend.

 

[acupunch]

Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders

man... wayyy too much text in a thread

I completely agreed with you :furious: