Re: Porsche 911 vs all the rest of the pretenders
Lemme just put my thoughts against some of your sweeping statements across without you trying to cry foul and play victim to garner sympathy votes. We are simply exchanging viewpoints here, so I do not quite buy your version of forumers hating you and "automatically and instinctively seeked you out and tried to destroy you." You know that's carrying it way too far........
Sorry, admin, this reply is not a heated rebuttal. Treat it like an exchange of thoughts. Specifically, I just wanna to point out the flaw in CaySman's train of thoughts with reference to our car mods and selection....... it is relevant insofar a car forum is concerned, and I am quite free this morning.......
caySman said:
Good points, as usual. You know, you always raise good points, but I disagree. Why? Because we have our own preferences, and I respect yours. Not that it's worth anything, but it leads to my point. Your preferences are your own, that's why I respect it.
Preference is the word. Glad you said it.......
caySman said:
For your Example 1, the owner puts 22" rims to `feel good'. Feeling good is for himself, but the 2nd stage, WHY does he feel good? Because :
1) He REALLY like the chunky rims, makes him feel like a fierce pimp, or
2) He THINKS that people who see his rims think he's a fierce pimp, so he feels good.
You went on and black-label the 2nd hander. This is where it goes all wrong...... Lemme illustrate.
Some, if not most, of the forumers here would have gone through this thought process. Picked up the car from dealer, drove for a while, decided that stock rims are not nice or good enough. Decided to get something bigger.... 18" or 19" or 20". Well, following your functional train of thought, weight will be the ONLY consideration. But the fact is that WEIGHT is NOT the only consideration. So the driver decides to try all kinds of brands. As such, you dun see only one brand on the shelf. Is this consumerism? Hardly. It is preference - you'd said it. And you said you will respect it.
What went wrong here? In the typical mods decision, we went through this process - (1) recognising a want and motivated to achieve it - be it bigger rims or CF trims - functionality is not the only consideration
(2) information and research - ask around, checking prices, checking vendors
(3) comparing alternatives, forming own basis of judgement
(4) purchase or mod it
(5) evaluation for overall mods/purchase - happy? Need fine-tuning?
Your citation of the second hander here is hardly applicable in our mod process. In fact, it is a poisoning-the-well type of argument. I doubt there is a majority of us who will actually mod or buy car parts like a "second-hander" above our own "grasp of reality." Go through the process I have listed and ask if "whether or not they choose to exercise their own rational judgment." When a forumer upgrades his rims to a bigger size, he is not necessarily showing "propensity to seek someone else's approval above their own judgment." Certainly not in the 22" rim owner case. More often than not, he likes it - be it rims, bodykit, ICE, or whatever you deemed less than functional - more so than what others think. I encourage you to turn up for the meetup to see the diversity of tastes and preferences of mods (you'd said you respect preferences). I can assure you most, if not all, do car-things without a second-hander propensity. Hence I think your extrapolation of your second-hander theory on car mods and the examples cited are erroneous.
caySman said:
To act in a second-handed manner is to place something else -- which usually translates to someone else -- above your own grasp of reality. The distinction between a first- and second-hander is not really an issue of the amount of knowledge each has, but whether or not they choose to exercise their own rational judgment. When I say I don't care what their rational judgment is, it's because I'm lazy to know, and I don't want to know. So I shortcut the process to hunt for 2nd handers by looking for their propensity to seek someone else's approval above their own judgment.
So, what went wrong?
Your analysis assumes a decision-making matrix heavily-weighted on your advocated aspects - functionality & performance. However, you'd failed to recognise and respect that the matrix is vastly different in other drivers' mind. They could be enthusiasts too, but the perception of value and priorities are different. Their matrix could be skewed to other factors ranked lowly in your matrix. You have to look into their lifestyles and needs to be able to make such a strong advocacy. Look at this argument......
caySman said:
That, precisely, is the deadliness of second-handers. They have no concern for facts, ideas, work. They're concerned only with people. They dont ask: Is this true? They ask: Is this what others think is true? Not to judge, but to repeat. Not to do, but to give the impression of doing. Not creation, but show.
You can use the argument on owners who bought their cars without checking - simply because of the marque. Then again, who would not have done any research and buy simply for the showmanship? It is very simplistic to assume people are naive to buy a marque for the branding alone. Back to the matrix theory, some would place other variables on their matrices with higher weightings - for that reason, you have 520 and M5 owners living in the same forum, 320 and M3 owners coming together. To each his own.
Interestingly, when I picked up my new ride, someone at BVO came up to me and commented that I should track my 335. He lamented (jokingly) that I was a poseur in my 4-potter cabrio days, and I should not be a poseur now. The fact of the matter is - after your posts, I am caught in a dilemma. I am not a trackie. Was never one. Now, if I dun track, I am deemed a poseur (a second-hander in your definition) - someone who does not fully appreciate the full performance of the car. But if I track, I will become exactly what you have defined - someone who "give the impression of doing." Someone who track because he wanna be accepted. Wow, all of a sudden I am in deep shit. Either way I am damned.
Then I started thinking, wow, I buy watches with functions I dun use - world time, chrono, minute repeater, perpetual calendar - I will be deemed to be a second-hander. A casio quartz will just do. Let's all switch to a Casio. It serves the same function of time-telling..... Or do I know something that those calling me second-handers dun? I have other variables that I ranked highly in my matrix that did not even show up in their list? So, whose matrix should we use?
Oh, a Cayman S better be the best in its category, else it will be a second-hander purchase. It's a freaking Porsche, for car enthusiasts' sake. The buyers are obviously not buying to show, but purely on its product merits. That's the only variable on their purchase decision matrix. No brand premium. Just kidding - knowing that you probably is a owner of a Cayman S. But I hope you see my point. You have made very presumptuous and assuming statements..... but the flaws of generalisation are spotted all over.
caySman said:
I'm sure Ryan understands the 2nd handers in this forum, and he's utterly aware of `other performance marques' sounds bad to the unpretentious, but hey, he's supplying the server and I'm sure in this business `the customer is always right'. After all, the majority of premium brand cars are indeed purchased for status and prestiege, and so Ryan has good gut instinct at the very least.
PerverTT said:
There are those who buy cars from European marques not because of their engineering or driving qualities, but because of the need to impress and to make a statement about their social aspirations.
It sounds like a dichotomy. Either you are buying based on merits, or based on Maslow's needs to gain acceptance. Hmmm......again, your matrix has only few variables - performance, qualities....... your neighbours' purchase has more variables, hence higher level of irrationality involved. Dun get me know, I know where you are coming from, but the fact is that car buyers are not at all acting as if the decision is a dichotomous binary option. In reality, it is a composite of all kinds of variables. Branding, quality, performance, after-sales service............. And there is no way to tell whose matrix is weighed heavier in which aspect.
A E200 or 320i owner could have bought it based on branding (your social aspirations theory), another could have bought it based on his perception of performance. Now, his perception of comfort vs performance is different from yours. Is it fair to judge him based on your matrix, which is skewed based on your needs? Think about the poor 4-potter bimmers here. I owned two before. And I know the frustration when so-called performance purists like caySman smeared the engine down. But perhaps many owners do not need the performance of a 6-potter in city driving? Does that necessarily means these owners (myself inclusive) are showboats? Even if they are, how could you tell?
And please, dun make that statement about Ryan. Sure, he is supplying the server, but he has never been a patronising person because we are his "customers." He is rather fair and unpretentious.
caySman said:
....... instead of a stupid P-car which puts me on the firing line. No I'm not afraid, but just don't want to be targeted. it is a weakness nevertheless. Question is, you understand it all - why aren't you hated? They should have automatically and instinctively seeked you out and tried to destroy you.
Like I have said, let's not discuss based on emotionally-charged premises. You know you are not hated here. And you are not on the firing line because of your Porky ownership. You are not targeted. Nobody wanna destroy you.
So, stop the whining and I-am-so-victimised crap and start living out of your salty world. This is a forum, not a cubicle. Peace.