Ignition Upgrades

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

So what is stopping you from Clicking X and and get out of my thread?

1 - it is not your thread, it is the forum's thread. This is the technical section (engine and transmission)

2 - Unlike Jeremy, and some others, I very much like the contents of this thread and find great enjoyment bringing it to its logical conclusion, regardless of how long it takes.

===

We did not take on greenplus out of our own free will. It was never R2D's to begin with.

- Today on this thread

But back in 2008 on this thread.. http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/bazaar-bmw-parts-accessories/21381-green-plus-fuel-catalyst.html

"Right now, i have about 10 bottles with me and they are retailing for $36 per bottle of 250ml. CP has agreed to keep the 10% discount going for the BM forum guys so the price is $32 per bottle. As the mixing amount is 25ml per 40L of petrol, a bottle treats 400L of fuel......I personally have been using the damn thing for the last 1 year and am hooked on the stuff. It does not improve the octane rating of the fuel but just improves the burn speed of the fuel. The product aims to increase the efficiency of the engine by maximising the extraction of power through hotter & faster combustion. I am just hooked on the increased power and driveability of the engine. Let me know if you wanna try or wanna buy." - YENDOR aka RODNEY

"My beliefs are rather simple. I have been using the catalyst for a year now. Bought 6 bottles last time and i just ran out about 2 months ago. Car felt damn lethargic and slow on pick up. Friends drove the car and still said it felt good compared to their own cars. Bought a couple of bottles just 2 weeks ago and started to use it again. I am a believer cos the car woke up again." - YENDOR aka RODNEY

"By the way, i am not in this for the money, cos i dun even get peanuts. I just love cars." - YENDOR aka RODNEY (but now the new product, untested is in fact about the money)

We went into business with him and he was the agent for the product. We have long since parted ways and we have chosen to drop the product due to a lack of scientific proof.

- R2D Rodney, today at 12:31pm (saved on record) before it was edited out


Yet back then in 2008 on this thread.. http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/engine-performance-transmission-section/23794-broquet-any-good-2.html

"CP did perform some combustion chamber pressure measurements and these had indicated about 6% faster time to reach peak cylinder pressure. " - R2D

"But i must say this again...R2D and UM2 are not here for a free ride and to con the living daylights out of everybody. If it works we will sell it or even recommend it." - R2D

So which is it?
1 - Do you or do you not sell products with scientific proof?
2 - Or do you take on and drop products on whim?
3 - As an adult do you have free will or not and do you exercise it?


Does anyone see a trend here? Am I the only one taking crazy pills?

- Claim buttfeel and power at different times but by convenience
- Don't like don't buy
- No test or partial test, claims
- Feel is king
- Don't questions us. About the product and theory - sometimes we know, sometimes we don't know, depending on circumstances.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

there is no need to waste money to go into expensive testings to prove 1 hp.

It's not 1hp... it's supposedly ~17hp at 3000 RPM.

17hp at 3000 RPM will show up in acceleration testing. Accelerating testing, run averaged, logged is completely free of charge (expensive?). Doesn't even need dyno.

lol

 

[kyubi]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi Folks,

I might be new to this forum and I am actually quite appalled with all this flaming here and there.

Different fellow forumers find certain garage / tuners appealing that the other and some don't even bother to do anything mods and prefer their cars to remain a stockie.

This whole thing will go on and on until one of you walk away or just remain mum. So who is going to be that gentleman who is able to do that?

If quite a number of forum users have went to Rodney and gotten his magic hands to work on their beasts and they are all hunky dorey, then leave it as that. The customers aren't complaining and they feel that their ride are alot more punchy etc so...it means that they are all happy and satisfied clients.

I can understand where you are coming from as well Shaun. I loved the V8s and been in the LS1 forum back in OZ and there are so many garages competing to see who's good etc and for most of us in the forum who only knows abit or two about the mechanical portion of a car, we depend on a Master like yourself to make sure that what we paid for is bang for buck and that we are not ripped off by the different fellow tuners / car garage. But let's just leave it as that since all of these is going nowhere but cause an eyesore to us forumers who read this thread.

Cheers.

 

[pengful]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

All these mudslinging is not doing anyone any good and this discussion is beginning to be a shame for the BMW community.

I thought the "know-all" guru is going to rise to the challenge and meet the "volunteer" and the "advocate" for a before-after dyno at MI but alas, he chooses to spew theories behind a keyboard. Oh well, guess there is not going to be an end anytime soon.

If I had paid for whatever mod I believe in and I am HAPPY with it, no professor or PHD or keyboard hero is going to tell me otherwise. I SONG what!

Point to clarify: I have not been a party to this mod and have not installed it. I have stated this before and stating again in case amnesia creeps up again. There will not be any embarassment whatsoever.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

A proper before and after dyno test at MI (and more) has never been in doubt. Rodney is stalling by insisting that any and all all costs be borne by others, when the burden of proof rests on him alone. Anyone else who offers, lends, or pays for anything to help the test is kind.

There is no theory anymore. Only test procedure is left to settle, before the test itself.

If this thread upsets you, or might end up embarrassing you because you were among those perhaps foolish enough to spend hundreds on something that potentially has 0 gain (despite claim), click X. If you can't deal with logical points, don't write.

 

[Red_Bean_Bun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

The customer pays as long as he's happy. Fully agreed.

In most commercial (B2B) deals of a large size - the single customer would pay for a proof of concept to be done. If it is proven, that customer would place the full order.

On the other hand, for a retail (B2C) deal - onus is on the retailer to convince the consumer.

And how convincing it is varies -

- By references (word of mouth)
- By facts (lab reports)
- Live demostrations
- Endorsements (e.g Tiger Woods installed this upgrade........)

From observations - Consumers investing in the above activities are rare.

Depending on the customer's level of sophistication - some need more convincing than others. And in a business world - the more you can convince - the more business one would get.

All these mudslinging is not doing anyone any good and this discussion is beginning to be a shame for the BMW community.

I thought the "know-all" guru is going to rise to the challenge and meet the "volunteer" and the "advocate" for a before-after dyno at MI but alas, he chooses to spew theories behind a keyboard. Oh well, guess there is not going to be an end anytime soon.

If I had paid for whatever mod I believe in and I am HAPPY with it, no professor or PHD or keyboard hero is going to tell me otherwise. I SONG what!

Point to clarify: I have not been a party to this mod and have not installed it. I have stated this before and stating again in case amnesia creeps up again. There will not be any embarassment whatsoever.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

The customer pays as long as he's happy. Fully agreed.

In B2C it is not uncommon for consumers to pay with certain expectations and even if the expectations are not met, decide it is not worth the time / trouble to try and all or part of what they've paid. Possible reasons range from peace loving, thinking 'people view me as a trouble maker / or laugh at me for even buying it in the first place, the time and trouble to reverse this and make a claim already is more than the cost of the mod ' etc.

And in a business world - the more you can convince - the more business one would get.

Exactly So positive test results are good, and negative not good, and both do in fact affect business. To claim otherwise seems crazy.

 

[jinooi]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

When you say "we" is that you and Rodney? Have you taken to speaking for Rodney?

are you dyslexic or autistic? or both?

what in the world gave you that impression?

or are you continuing to assume that you are the only one in the whole of bloody singapore to be passionate about cars and have the right to know?

when i said 'we' it means my friends and i, which i assume that you have none, if you continue to piss people off the way you do...

 

[powersteer]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi everyone,

Since this is a technical thread, why dun we simply keep it as that and not resort to personal attacks?

====

R2D,

Have you read my questions on that Accord? Given your vast experience, what do you think is the reason for the shift in torque peak?

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hi everyone,

Since this is a technical thread, why dun we simply keep it as that and not resort to personal attacks?

====

R2D,

Have you read my questions on that Accord? Given your vast experience, what do you think is the reason for the shift in torque peak?

sorry missed that one out.

Perhaps is was the worn plugs that was causing the fuel mixtures to adapt and perhaps lean itself off to keep emissions down. If you look at the torque numbers, they are all within reasonable specs of a stock engine.

And yes, the car was indeed sick during the first and second test. But with higher sparking energy, a wider spark gap caused by the erosion of the ground tip will still be overcomed.

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

The customer pays as long as he's happy. Fully agreed.

In most commercial (B2B) deals of a large size - the single customer would pay for a proof of concept to be done. If it is proven, that customer would place the full order.

On the other hand, for a retail (B2C) deal - onus is on the retailer to convince the consumer.

And how convincing it is varies -

- By references (word of mouth)
- By facts (lab reports)
- Live demostrations
- Endorsements (e.g Tiger Woods installed this upgrade........)

From observations - Consumers investing in the above activities are rare.

Depending on the customer's level of sophistication - some need more convincing than others. And in a business world - the more you can convince - the more business one would get.

yes, i have pages of references from people that like the mod and like their car.

My fact is a before and after dyno charts with figures and receipts to back them up

If an owner likes my work, he is of free will to try it out. If my work is lacking, it is a once bitten twice shy case.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Perhaps is was the worn plugs that was causing the fuel mixtures to adapt and perhaps lean itself off to keep emissions down. If you look at the torque numbers, they are all within reasonable specs of a stock engine.

And yes, the car was indeed sick during the first and second test. But with higher sparking energy, a wider spark gap caused by the erosion of the ground tip will still be overcomed.

You are only guessing and claiming. There was no neutral witness. There was a 3 hour gap in which the car left the facility. Who knows what was done. Who knows if the plug even was damaged or other things done.

The entire test is flawed. You put up charts not representative of a healthy stock car, not even a BMW. If there had been no public inquiry, would you even have admitted that you found bad plugs? Why did it take 14 days and multiple posts and questions before you claim/admit your so called healthy stock car was not healthy in fact?

For all we know other things were done to the car in the first pull, and the ignition mod damaged the plug in the second run. Who knows? A proper test is needed

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

thousands of people like powerbalance and supposedly their new found strength, flexibility, balance, etc. and have attested to it in real life and in writing.

but in any real double blind test, they all fail miserably and there is always some excuse as to why

It's good that the australian authorities got them to publish the following: Consumers International - Australia: Power Balance wristbands worn by celebrities exposed as misleading

Power Balance Australia said: 'In our advertising, we stated that Power Balance wristbands improved your strength, balance and flexibility. We admit that there is no credible scientific evidence that supports our claims and therefore we engaged in misleading conduct in breach of s52 of the trade practices act 1974.'
Power balance has provided the ACCC with court enforceable undertakings that it will:

• Only make claims about products if they are supported by a written report from an independent testing body that meets certain standards
• Publish corrective advertising to prevent customers from being misled in the future
• Amend the Australian website and packaging to remove any misleading representations
• Offer a refund to any consumers who feel they have been misled
• Remove the word 'performance technology' from the band itself

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

A proper before and after dyno test at MI (and more) has never been in doubt. Rodney is stalling by insisting that any and all all costs be borne by others, when the burden of proof rests on him alone. Anyone else who offers, lends, or pays for anything to help the test is kind.

There is no theory anymore. Only test procedure is left to settle, before the test itself.

If this thread upsets you, or might end up embarrassing you because you were among those perhaps foolish enough to spend hundreds on something that potentially has 0 gain (despite claim), click X. If you can't deal with logical points, don't write.

If R2D is stalling then you are so wrong.

We see no point in wasting our time and resources to fund and manage such an activity at our expense.

First. you ask for a 15 conditions test to be met for you to deem it as fact. Who are you to demand this standard? Who are you to me? Is the business supposed to spend thoudands of dollars just to satisfy your need for the truth and hope that you will spend a couple of hundred dollars to buy our product?

Lets say the test is conducted and there is a gain. Are you going to compensate us for our time, opportunity costs, damages from this mud slinging, reputation? You will just walk away and say, hmmm.... something more to it, i must poke somemore....

If the test proves 0hp and 0Nm gain, we have customers that like their car so much and the way it drives. How many people on the forum is re-selling their ignition mod compared to other products?

One cannot simply represent an authority governed by statutory power and expect all those he does not believe to prove themselves at their personal costs. It does not make sense, does it?

Satinghost rider posted about the arkrapovic exhaust bring able to produce more power. Was there a dyno chart given? Yes he was a regular forumer and his post led to several cars buying the exhaust and installing it. I would suspect 100% of them never dynoed their car. So if your crusade for the truth and preventing other forumers from following in his footsteps is real, why don't you challenge him and help the weak and "straw men"....tsk tsk name calling. Now if we made the same dimensioned exhaust just out of less exotic materials, can we claim the same power gains? Could we sell it at a fraction of the cost? Of cos.

Ryan posted about advantages of the lightened pulleys and such a long time ago. He did a writeup and claimed about the better butt feel. Shit loads of pulleys sold. Albeit a lot of copies too... no dyno figures again. No crusade.

Lets say i am a tyre shop and i recommend a certain brand and model of a tyre. Are you going to ask me for the skid pan results and braking distance comparison figures and say that becos i cannot produce these figures for your liking that i am a fraud? A trickster? a Con-man? Must the shop construct a skid pan to your friction levels? Construct a road with your kind of tarmac and specifications. Buy tires of the same size from every other brand just to conduct the test?

Other shops claim of BMW 323s and 523s being able to be tuned till 325 and 525 power levels just by massaging the electronics. When there are physical differences between both engines and the volumetric efficiencies of these engines are different, i don't see you campaigning against them. I hinted to you about in an earlier post within this thread but you chose to ignore it and swung the issue to increased boost levels is a proven fact, blah blah blah...

Now lets say I am a traditional medicine man. I say my 1000yr old ginseng is better than your 5 yr old ginseng. Are you going to ask me to prove it? Maybe i could sell it as a pill to improve EQ of the consumer. God knows some people require it.

Ascendant Motorsports claim of the GPS tracking system being able to track your exact position on the track. Everybody knows that the GPS system as a random error factor deliberately built into the network so that unfavourable people do not get the ability to get a lat-long co-ordinate while on holiday and later plant these onto a tracking missile. The random error was a radius of 50m in the past but is now down to 10m. So did they setup a differential GPS transmitter at sepang to transmit the error difference? Yet there is an ability to plot the vehicle's progress on the track on a google map. Why no crusade there?

You re-posted about the green plus and the fact was that it ws CP's product. when he left, the product left. So whose was it? Now you have even accused us of possibly dropping the ignition upgrade in the future. That is our business perogative if the product screws us. Thus far, I have stood by the ignition upgrade every single time. Since this whole fiasco started, you have caused a stir and caused several customers to come back with doubts. This is already damage to the shops reputation.

We still maintain the fact that you have a personal agenda and that your posts have proven this fact. No need for a dyno chart to prove that fact. You hurl accusations and ask the shop for the truth according to your standards to your specifications. Come play football on my field according to my rules.

Yes we have a vested interest. Yes we started this thread. OK we don't own the forum and it is for public viewing. If you don't like it, just click the X? Why cannot click, you pay money here too?

I ask the forumers now. What is the truth behind your intentions? Take a long walk on a short pier.

 

[milk15]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

I ask the forumers now. What is the truth behind your intentions? Take a long walk on a short pier.

Rod.... paiseh.... my ang moh not beri good......
In another way does it mean..... ai song but scare pain????

 

[hitmee]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

i am surprised this thread not locked yet.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

We see no point in wasting our time and resources to fund and manage such an activity at our expense.

Ok.. if you say so.

First. you ask for a 15 conditions test to be met for you to deem it as fact. Who are you to demand this standard? Who are you to me? Is the business supposed to spend thoudands of dollars just to satisfy your need for the truth anbd hope that you will spend a couple of hundred to buy our product?

It's not my standard, it is basic scientific standard of

Prestated procedure agreed upon by all
Neutral witness(es)
True ABA or more
etc.

Lets say the test is conducted and there is a gain. Are you going to compensate us for our time, opportunity costs, damages from this mud slinging, reputation? You will just walk away and say, hmmm.... something more to it, i must poke somemore....

A gain in a proper test is a gain.. great. The positive result is yours to keep and publicize, etc. Your customers will be happier and in all probability you will pick up more new customers.

If the test proves 0hp and 0Nm gain, we have customers that like their car so much and the way it drives. How many people on the forum is re-selling their ignition mod compared to other products?

How many are reselling their broquets or magnets?

Satinghost rider posted about the arkrapovic exhaust bring able to produce more power. Was there a dyno chart given? Yes he was a regular forumer and his post led to several cars buying the exhaust and installing it. I would suspect 100% of them never dynoed their car. So if your crusade for the truth and preventing other forumers from following in his footsteps is real, why don't you challenge him and help the weak and "straw men"....tsk tsk name calling.

Geez dude... straw man is not namecalling. It is a known type of logical fallacy.

Omar's akrapovic exhaust talk is his talk as an individual, not as a business. He does not sell akra. The guys selling akra have their own info I am sure. Akra has run their own tests I'm sure and there is nothing unknown about exhaust theory. A whole range of aftermarket exhaust systems have been tested internatiionally and independently and there have been gains. There's nothing to be suspicious over in what akra shows or writes. If you can point me specifically to something, maybe you can start a thread on it.

Ryan posted about advantages of the lightened pulleys and such a long time ago. He did a writeup and claimed about the better butt feel. Shit loads of pulleys sold. Albeit a lot of copies too... no dyno figures again. No crusade.

No crusade because the theory of lower inertia pulleys, wheels, clutches, etc. has been known for ages. Under drive pulleys too. All have been tested multiple times internationally and independently. Nothing to suspect. Ryan is not a vendor either. And Ryan would not attack a questioner in a personal way. In other less certain gain areas, ryan has dyno tested before, acceleration tested, and continues to test to this day.

Lets say i am a tyre shop and i recommend a certain brand and model of a tyre. Are you going to ask me for the skid pan results and braking distance comparison figures and say that becos i cannot produce these figures for your liking that i am a fraud? A trickster? a Con-man? Must the shop construct a skid pan to your friction levels? Construct a road with your kind of tarmac and specifications

No because a high performance tire shop has its customers test the tire and they know it for themselves, and many even have data on it. Take for example the recent BMWsg trackday. There were tons of tire models undergoing 'testing'. Baseline, nothing else changed, 4 seconds dropped = good = inline with the theory = inline with the data

Other shops claim of BMW 323s and 523s being able to be tuned till 325 and 525 power levels just by massaging the electronics. When there are physical differences between both engines and the volumetric efficiencies of these engines are different, i don't see you campaigning against them.

Please point to a specific claim and not speak in vague terms. Please quote the specific claim or start a new thread on it.

Now lets say I am a traditional medicine man. I say my 1000yr old ginseng is better than your 5 yr old ginseng. Are you going to ask me to prove it? Maybe i could sell it as a pill to improve EQ of the consumer. God knows some people require it.

Don't confuse subjective qualitative claims with objective and quantitative claims.

Performance testing is different from love, different from taste or perceived quality of ginseng.

Ascendant Motorsports claim of the GPS tracking system being able to track your exact position on the track. Everybody knows that the GPS system as a random error factor deliberately built into the network so that unfavourable people do not get the ability to get a lat-long co-ordinate while on holiday and later plant these onto a tracking missile. The random error was a radius of 50m in the past but is now down to 10m. So did they setup a differential GPS transmitter at sepang to transmit the error difference? Why no crusade there?

Racelogic itself is clear in all information about 3m CEP. There is no need for a crusade.

In applying the system, GPS drift is compensated for with curve fitting to a known track boundary. This process is shown live to all clients and can be shown in public no problem. The solution is known to race and data engineers internationally.

Differential GPS can be offered to clients and if they decide that they are so precise as to require cm CEP, with near zero GPS drift, then they are free to buy it. The systems are available.

But the program is not about m or cm CEPs. It is more about driving concepts and adaptability, practice. In the end, the gains clients make show up in back to back testing multiple times, using their own timers or loggers, my timers or loggers (both GPS and non GPS based), and/or the sepang transponder system itself, at private trackdays, open trackdays, official time attack events with scrutineers. The data is kept by both the client and Ascendant.

You re-posted about the green plus and the fact was that it ws CP's product. when he left, the product left. So whose was it? Now you have even accused us of possibly dropping the ignition upgrade in the future. That is our business perogative if the product screws us. Thus far, I have stood by the ignition upgrade every single time. Since this whole fiasco started, you have caused a stir and caused several customers to come back with doubts. This is already damage to the shops reputation.

The fact is, you put your name down and pushed the product, spoke good about it, talked about scientific evidence (but never showed it - and again no procedure stated, no witness), said you used it yourself, talked about theory, argued with people who questioned it.

3 years later, you do a U turn and say you dropped it cos it was never yours, and there was no scientific evidence. If you can do this now, it is not illogical to think that in 2013 you can say that in 2011 you had some other reason for putting your good name to this ignition mod when it was never your idea and you have other silent partners pushing you to do it, etc. There are tons of possibilities you can bring up in 2013. And again you can wash your hands of everything done in 2011 as you have claimed in 2011 about 2008.

No need for a dyno chart to prove that fact.

Ok.. if you say so

Come play football on my field according to my rules.

No man... never. That's all you seem to do. Try and set your own rules, disregarding the very basics of scientific tests. You love to chat in private because in public you might be questioned and indeed you are questioned by a few.

There is nothing to talk about in private mate. You can promote something publicly, so you can defend it publicly. What is the point of publicly inviting me down to your place to chat when you won't even make a simple phone call to talk to me directly? Instead you have to relay a message and threaten to sue me?

Private confident claims and theory, public illogic and denial of burden of proof
Private aggression, public pity game

I am starting to see your two different sides. You could have had some humility and call me to talk, but you chose to threaten me.

I ask the forumers now. What is the truth behind your intentions? Take a long walk on a short pier.

Truth is

- there is a wild claim, that is probably false so we ask for proof of truth.
- there is a wild test, that after much questioning and 14 days, has finally been admitted by the tester to be invalid
- claims of my bias lack any evidence whatsoever (public request for evidence has been met with nothing but vague statements, no quotes of questionable claims)

- it is all a smoke cloud to try and get away from a real test that might prove the ignition mod as low or no gain, perhaps even negative gain, and reduce its sale volume

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

If you don't like it, just click the X? Why cannot click, you pay money here too?

I can click, but I don't want to click. It's a public forum mate - don't hope for a click

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

3 years later, you do a U turn and say you dropped it cos it was never yours, and there was no scientific evidence. If you can do this now, it is not illogical to think that in 2013 you can say that in 2011 you had some other reason for putting your good name to this ignition mod when it was never your idea and you have other silent partners pushing you to do it, etc. There are tons of possibilities you can bring up in 2013. And again you can wash your hands of everything done in 2011 as you have claimed in 2011 about 2008.


check your dates.....

I have not sold green plus for over 2 years now..... long walk short pier......IQ quite high but compensated with very low eq......damn god is fair...

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

I have not sold green plus for over 2 years now..

Doesn't matter if you sell greenplus now or not.

What matters is that you firmly supported and pushed for its sale back in 2008. You gave personal testimonial for it, argued with people who questioned it, talked theory, multiple posts under your very own name. Yet now you wash your hands of everything you did and said in support of it.

In 2013 it will be easy for you to do the same for this ignition mod, should you so choose. Everything is whim and hand waving to you. Nothing is based on solid evidence before you get behind it and push it with all your might. This lack of accountability is what people should fear. No consistency.