Ignition Upgrades

[jinooi]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

No crusade because the theory of lower inertia pulleys, wheels, clutches, etc. has been known for ages. Under drive pulleys too. All have been tested multiple times internationally and independently. Nothing to suspect. Ryan is not a vendor either. And Ryan would not attack a questioner in a personal way. In other less certain gain areas, ryan has dyno tested before, acceleration tested, and continues to test to this day.

No because a high performance tire shop has its customers test the tire and they know it for themselves, and many even have data on it. Take for example the recent BMWsg trackday. There were tons of tire models undergoing 'testing'. Baseline, nothing else changed, 4 seconds dropped = good = inline with the theory = inline with the data

dude, i hate to say this, but your standards are not consistent.

it seems like you are on a witch hunt, just because R2D is a vendor? come on, surely as a vigilante you can do better than that?

rod has given us his theory on how the ignition upgrade works. and he has even gone to great lengths to prove it. you however, want to have it done your way, on your terms, but do not want to participate in the finding of the truth.

i do not doubt that ryan is still doing testing on the pulleys, but surely as a vigilante, you would also want to share the parameters behind the tests and show everyone that it is proven?

and the tyre tests at the trackday. c'mon shaun, you disappoint me. even a layman would be able to tell you the multiple factors affecting performance and lap times - track temp, air temp, tyre temp, condition of track, humidity, amount of fuel in the car, etc. and not forgetting to mention the biggest inconsitency of all, the driver, i.e. human error.

why be so particularly stringent and crucify R2D, when the rest of your conditions are so lax? surely you can do better than that?

"4 seconds dropped = good = inline with the theory = inline with the data"

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

dude, i hate to say this, but your standards are not consistent.

it seems like you are on a witch hunt, just because R2D is a vendor? come on, surely as a vigilante you can do better than that?

Vendors always get special priority because they make money off the site.

Forummers as individuals are only there to share. If they are accurate or inaccurate, they still don't make money off the forum.

So yes.. there are different standards for vendors, forummers, etc.

and the tyre tests at the trackday. c'mon shaun, you disappoint me. even a layman would be able to tell you the multiple factors affecting performance and lap times - track temp, air temp, tyre temp, condition of track, humidity, amount of fuel in the car, etc. and not forgetting to mention the biggest inconsitency of all, the driver, i.e. human error.

Tire in steady state lateral is 95% determinant of corner speed. All else equal with only tire changed, the lateral acceleration and time difference shows up immediately. Back to back testing, logged. Driver inputs logged too. Back to back tire swap, driver swaps, all done before. Everything inline

You have no clue as to how things go in real tests, how or what to measure on track. I do. So please don't even try. It's hilarious

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Hey jinooi, I'm still waiting for a specific claim you have a problem with. Please quote directly?

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

- there is a wild claim, that is probably false so we ask for proof of truth.
- there is a wild test, that after much questioning and 14 days, has finally been admitted by the tester to be invalid
- claims of my bias lack any evidence whatsoever (public request for evidence has been met with nothing but vague statements, no quotes of questionable claims)

it is not a wild claim. If you based the theory on Capacitive discharge ignition systems, they charge the the capacitor to 300V or so and deliver its energy into a single whack into the inductive coil. If you installed CDI systems yourself, you would know that the critical path to a car not firing properly is the use of skinny wires. Why? Cos the wires are unable to transmit that pulse of energy into the coil due to the high current requirements. the capacitive discharge ignition systems are still in use today in race applications too. The mod charges the capacitor to 13.6v and discharges into the coil. period.

Transistor ignition systems are no different. They draw short pulses of electrical energy to charge the primary coils to the minimum levels. The ignition upgrade keeps this power in a reservoir just beside the coil to charge it. Why do hi-fi addicts add a stiffening capacitor beside their subwoofer amps even though they have 4 or 2 AWG sized wires? Cos the instantenous current draw exceeds that of the wire too. Can the system work without it? Of cos it can. Can you use thinner wires with a larger storage capacitor and still not hear an audible difference, yes you can..

We never admitted that the test was invalid. If the test conditions was the same, the results must still be taken. The same student takes the same exam now and later is still the same student. Its the same freaking car for crying out loud. Actually, now we can also claim that the ignition upgrade lets you use plugs for a longer period of time. So it saves you money too...... But of cos you being the truthful searching man that you are, will want reliability test to prove them coupled with periodic dyno tests to proof that power levels do not drop over the course of the test and that all the parameters must be kept same, so must change engine oil every test, change air filter, check that tire pressures are the same......blah blah... all for the sake of 4pcs of spark plugs....

i have never met with vauge statements.........long walk on short pier.......

You come from the theorist point of view and we come from the practical camp, we will never go to the same functions and see the same concert.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

It doesn't matter

There is no proper test (practical) to prove the theory of transistor ignition, bright spark, burn time, etc.

It's hilarious how Rodney calls the call for a practical test, a "theorist point of view", while his walk of transistors, capacitors, draw this bright that, burn speed, etc. is what he calls the practical camp LOL

There is nothing more practical than a simple scientific test.

And still it does not matter because 2 years from now, Rodney can wash his hands of all this and move on to new mod of the week As he has already done once before.

YAY!

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Doesn't matter if you sell greenplus now or not.

What matters is that you firmly supported and pushed for its sale back in 2008. You gave personal testimonial for it, argued with people who questioned it, talked theory, multiple posts under your very own name. Yet now you wash your hands of everything you did and said in support of it.

In 2013 it will be easy for you to do the same for this ignition mod, should you so choose. Everything is whim and hand waving to you. Nothing is based on solid evidence before you get behind it and push it with all your might. This lack of accountability is what people should fear. No consistency.

yes, we gave our personal approval cos we like that.... so how, omar liked the exhaust, ryan liked the pullies, so what is the diff, becos we are vendors? I am sure andre likes juice box and juzz for cars likes mobil oils.... so what? How do you want me to support a product that i am not selling? We personally have a stock of green plus that we still keep for personal usage. Must we announce to you? That is ridiculous!!!! Must i continue to endorse a product of a person that fell out with the company?

As for 2013, open your computer then and the then make a comment. If we are still in business then, you can check if we still endorse and perform ignition upgrade. Another silly accusation.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

We never admitted that the test was invalid. If the test conditions was the same, the results must still be taken

So you go from claiming the car is healthy and stock

to admitting that plug is all burned up bad and engine is misfiring

and now to saying ok the plug was in bad shape and there was misfiring but the test is still valid?

The plug was discovered only after all the tests meaning you don't know for sure when it got like that or how bad misfire was at what point and for what test. The whole test is a crock. From the mismatched axes, to no witness, no procedure, no known car state, no temps, 3 hour gap, removal of the car from facility, again no witness, nothing. It's all claims, all stories, until proven otherwise. And you have no proof.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

yes, we gave our personal approval cos we like that.... so how, omar liked the exhaust, ryan liked the pullies, so what is the diff, becos we are vendors?

Yes you are vendors. Yes you make money off it. Have you no honour?

I am sure andre likes juice box and juzz for cars likes mobil oils.... so what?

I don't see those guys backtracking saying they've done tests on those oils, made power, run scientific tests, pushed and sold personally, then 2 years later said there was no scientific evidence of its benefits so they dropped it and have moved on to other oils.

Any evidence that they have done the same as you? U turned in 2 years on a product they put their good name to? Please quote them directly.

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Vendors always get special priority because they make money off the site.

Vendors also pay money for the site..........

Forummers as individuals are only there to share. If they are accurate or inaccurate, they still don't make money off the forum.

So yes.. there are different standards for vendors, forummers, etc.

Are you a vendor? Are you running a business? If you want to pick a vendor to tear it up, chew it up and spit it out, is it personal? Did we cheat you? Did we ever touch your car? Did you ever come to the shop and perhaps fall down and hurt yourself?

Now you come up and say there are different standards.... the truth is out there....


Tire in steady state lateral is 95% determinant of corner speed. All else equal with only tire changed, the lateral acceleration and time difference shows up immediately. Back to back testing, logged. Driver inputs logged too. Back to back tire swap, driver swaps, all done before. Everything inline

No. I dun believe, No neutral witness. Somehow the tire sold by a company always bests the test results and aces all the criteria. Was the tire test driven by Tiff Needel or the stig? BTW who says that they are the most neutral drivers, did they use the data tracking system and used Differential GPS to log each and every corner to the cm? I want to confirm that the himan factor is out of the equation or else we we will not believe.... see how ridiculous it sounds?

You have no clue as to how things go in real tests, how or what to measure on track. I do. So please don't even try. It's hilarious

You on the other hand have no idea how to conduct yourself in a proper and elegant manner. We extended an invitation to share and learn, You turned it down. We can even accuse the rubber suction cups on your data logger for nulling the g force results. In the years of vehicle production, we have never seen G force gauges mounted on suction cups. Every car has them now for Air bag reasons. How about this, is your data logger mounted at the CG of the car? High on the windscreen is not a good place. Sure off CG of car.

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Yes you are vendors. Yes you make money off it. Have you no honour?

I don't see those guys backtracking saying they've done tests on those oils, made power, run scientific tests, pushed and sold personally, then 2 years later said there was no scientific evidence of its benefits so they dropped it and have moved on to other oils.

Any evidence that they have done the same as you? U turned in 2 years on a product they put their good name to? Please quote them directly.

I repeat, WE ARE STILL USING GEEENPLUS FOR OURSELVES.... Are you dumb, blind or just stupid? Stocks are limited and we save it for ourselves, not to sell.

Do i have honour? Are you a qualified judge? Who are you?

They did not put their good name to the product, The agents of the product chose to stand at the background in case of people like you.... and they were right.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

You on the other hand have no idea how to conduct yourself in a proper and elegant manner. We extended an invitation to share and learn, You turned it down

Of course because you should share in public after public claim.

And not go around in private threatening to sue.

. We can even accuse the rubber suction cups on your data logger for nulling the g force results. In the years of vehicle production, we have never seen G force gauges mounted on suction cups. Every car has them now for Air bag reasons. How about this, is your data logger mounted at the CG of the car? High on the windscreen is not a good place. Sure off CG of car.

And off CG changes the driving result by how much in reference to the accelerometer placed at CG that is itself subject to distortion from being fairly solidly mounted to a vibrating body? Enough to affect what a driver understands and applies decade old industry accepted truths? Have you hear of lord mounts? They are rubber mounts and used to mount certain F1 loggers that house the accelerometers. LOL You do not want to go down this road with me Rodney.

1 Million USD racecars running 10 mil USD per year per car (up to 5 cars total) operating budgets and 15 mil USD in equipment around the racecars to support the team, don't even place their accelerometers at the CG. You want lower levels to do that?

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

]It doesn't matter

There is no proper test (practical) to prove the theory of transistor ignition, bright spark, burn time, etc.

Correct, so just becos there is no test by your standards, it does not exist? Tell the chinese that there is no such thing as ghosts...

It's hilarious how Rodney calls the call for a practical test, a "theorist point of view", while his walk of transistors, capacitors, draw this bright that, burn speed, etc. is what he calls the practical camp LOL

Its not a practical camp. We learnt this the hard way from installation of CDIs and analysis of varous ignition systems. Have you wired up a car? Have you built up ignition systems? Have you installed a 4 individual coil system for a honda B16? If you have speak up. Who is hilarious?

There is nothing more practical than a simple scientific test.

There is nothing more irritating then an arse that does not accept the results.

And still it does not matter because 2 years from now, Rodney can wash his hands of all this and move on to new mod of the week As he has already done once before.

In 2 years, we hope our business thrives and succeeds so that we can still drive a revolution in car maintenance. And also prove you wrong and show the forum what a person you are. Hooray.... lets all vote in 2 years time.... the thesis is that certain forum members are not fit to join.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

I repeat, WE ARE STILL USING GEEENPLUS FOR OURSELVES.... Are you dumb, blind or just stupid? Stocks are limited and we save it for ourselves, not to sell.

Do i have honour? Are you a qualified judge? Who are you?

They did not put their good name to the product, The agents of the product chose to stand at the background in case of people like you.... and they were right.

Sorry can you repeat that? The part where you type all in caps... I didn't quite hear you.

Your actions and words show if you have any honour... or not. It doesn't matter if you claim to use it yourself now or not. What matters is that you got behind it spoke of tests, argued. And yesterday you U turn and say you dropped it cos there was no scientific evidence for its benefits.

I am still waiting for solid examples of claims you have problems with from other vendors. Please quote them directly.

 

[milk15]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

nabei................. machiam history lessons................ talk till dig out last time.....
Last time my kkj 5"................... now it had grown to 7"..................... :dramamam:

Both Rodney and Shaun are technically good in their own ways..... (I'm not a rocket scientist & i dun understand chim chim england)...... But as i've said before.... if i've installed the so called "ignition upgrades" (which i till now have not).....and i went do a dyno or whatever tests.... and found that it's not what Rodney had claimed on the products... i will go back to him to ask for a re-fund.... or MAYBE i'll just post the results or tests i had done on the forum to show everyone that I GOT CHEATED!!!!!

Anyway, i do not think any workshops or sponsors or dealers will do tests according to customers requirements. Especially, tests will runs up to thousands.... just to prove to customers and sell them a S$100++ product?????

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

So you go from claiming the car is healthy and stock

to admitting that plug is all burned up bad and engine is misfiring

and now to saying ok the plug was in bad shape and there was misfiring but the test is still valid?

The plug was discovered only after all the tests meaning you don't know for sure when it got like that or how bad misfire was at what point and for what test. The whole test is a crock. From the mismatched axes, to no witness, no procedure, no known car state, no temps, 3 hour gap, removal of the car from facility, again no witness, nothing. It's all claims, all stories, until proven otherwise. And you have no proof.

Of cos the car is healthy and stock. Must i strip every part of the car and check before the test begins? The car drove in and moved around. So why should i remove more items to check? Must i check the oil filter for debris, fuel filter for blockages? What nonsense? Driving back and forth already incurred 3hrs and that also in question by you..

The car ran fine for almost 1 month before coming back. I foresaw that you will use this back at me and i even mentioned this. How personal can you get? The test was valid cos the before and after test was conducted under the same conditions. Same plug, same oil, same trip driving there, same dyno, same operator, same day, same filters. ONLY THING DIFFERENT WAS THE IGNITION UPGRADE.

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Of course because you should share in public after public claim.

And not go around in private threatening to sue.


Of cos, there is libel and defamatory inuendos in all your posts. So can i suggest that our MM is too old and unfit and say that they cannot sue me? We did check with lawyers and they did say you were threading the line very closely. We reserve the right to bring accusers to task and bear all responsibilities.




And off CG changes the driving result by how much in reference to the accelerometer placed at CG that is itself subject to distortion from being fairly solidly mounted to a vibrating body? Enough to affect what a driver understands and applies decade old industry accepted truths? Have you hear of lord mounts? They are rubber mounts and used to mount certain F1 loggers that house the accelerometers. LOL You do not want to go down this road with me Rodney.


Why not, you brought us down this road? We say the G-force readings are not accurate to the 0.01G. Prove it. Nothing personal..... Yes there are rubber mounts made for this special purpose. Are you using them? Can a F1 team afford to have additional holes in their already optimised frames?

1 Million USD racecars running 10 mil USD per year per car (up to 5 cars total) operating budgets and 15 mil USD in equipment around the racecars to support the team, don't even place their accelerometers at the CG. You want lower levels to do that? [/QUOTE]

Exactly. Cos all their heavier stuff is there. Not their G-force gauges. They are multi-million dollar organisations and they too take such liberties. R2D operates at the lower levels and you want us to fund tests at the higher levels?

What is your logic? Pay $300 for dyno session and check every car, every part, every filter for every $200 mod...

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

learnt this the hard way from installation of CDIs and analysis of varous ignition systems. Have you wired up a car? Have you built up ignition systems? Have you installed a 4 individual coil system for a honda B16? If you have speak up. Who is hilarious?

Who is hilarious? You are, because that has nothing to do with testing this ignition mod properly to see if it works and how much if so

To answer: yes to all, but not just for some little B16, but for endurance racing C5Rs, LS1, SB2, etc. V8s, V6s from 3.5 to 13 litres for national level circuit racing, drag racing, endurance racing. Including troubleshooting the systems for the HI7R engine that was joinly developed by Ilmor and Honda Performance North America. Also other engines for offshore powerboats like Mercury, Sterling.

Ever been in 80 engine dyno cell pull per week development for an engine that needs to be totally rebuilt by the end of testing to that spec because by then it is worn out? How about 2 days of cam testing on a chassis dyno? Ever done windtunnel testing? 7 post rig testing? Chassis torsion testing? Track testing - all for days at a time? Fully instrumented, complete data off a 400K data system? Speak up now!

There is nothing more irritating then an arse that does not accept the results.

Please don't call me an arse

There is no way anyone should accept the results of a completely flawed test. You shouldn't even try and make them accept it. How the test is flawed has been listed before. One more time.. the test had no:

Prestated procedure agreed upon by all
Neutral witness(es)
True ABA comparison or more
etc.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Of cos the car is healthy and stock. Must i strip every part of the car and check before the test begins? The car drove in and moved around. So why should i remove more items to check? Must i check the oil filter for debris, fuel filter for blockages? What nonsense? Driving back and forth already incurred 3hrs and that also in question by you..

If you had done your homework you would know how to do a baseline pull to confirm car health first.

You should also know that since this test was supposedly to test the ignition system, that at least the components of the ignition system should be checked. It takes 10 minutes or much less to check 4 sparkplugs.

Of course you don't need to check your wheel bearings if they are not making noise and if a wheel spins freely

Don't be ridiculous

before and after test was conducted under the same conditions. Same plug, same oil, same trip driving there, same dyno, same operator, same day, same filters. ONLY THING DIFFERENT WAS THE IGNITION UPGRADE.

This is claim. There was no pre stated procedure. And no witness.

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Who is hilarious? You are, because that has nothing to do with testing this ignition mod properly to see if it works and how much if so

To answer: yes to all, but not just for some little B16, but for endurance racing C5Rs, LS1, SB2, etc. V8s, V6s from 3.5 to 13 litres for national level circuit racing, drag racing, endurance racing. Including troubleshooting the systems for the HI7R engine that was joinly developed by Ilmor and Honda Performance North America. Also other engines for offshore powerboats like Mercury, Sterling.

Ever been in 80 engine dyno cell pull per week development for an engine that needs to be totally rebuilt by the end of testing to that spec because by then it is worn out? How about 2 days of cam testing on a chassis dyno? Ever done windtunnel testing? 7 post rig testing? Chassis torsion testing? Track testing - all for days at a time? Fully instrumented, complete data off a 400K data system? Speak up now!

Please don't call me an arse

There is no way anyone should accept the results of a completely flawed test. You shouldn't even try and make them accept it. How the test is flawed has been listed before. One more time.. the test had no:

Prestated procedure agreed upon by all
Neutral witness(es)
True ABA comparison or more
etc.

of cos you have done that... so that gives you the morale high ground to speak down to others? We have no interest in what were the conditions of your education process. That was your baptism of fire. For your benefit.

You have had the opportunity to learn and follow your dream. Who funded you education? how are you earning your keep to replay ypur parents? Are you financing your house, a wife, kids? how dare you come and disturb a business and say its not personal, only the truth?

Why perform the test according to your specs? Again back to you. your specs, your conditions. You say we are fakes, prove it.

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

If you had done your homework you would know how to do a baseline pull to confirm car health first.

You should also know that since this test was supposedly to test the ignition system, that at least the components of the ignition system should be checked. It takes 10 minutes or much less to check 4 sparkplugs.

Of course you don't need to check your wheel bearings if they are not making noise and if a wheel spins freely

Don't be ridiculous



This is claim. There was no pre stated procedure. And no witness.

baseline pull, another $150

You think we so free? No you start to say we should check this and that, Stop squirming and stand up and say you too have no right to question my methods. who are you? you are not even my customer.