Ignition Upgrades

[marklee]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Peak torque at 4500 rpm according to oneshift.

Honda Accord 2.0 JDM (A) 2007 - Oneshift.com

Have no idea how such a big difference can arise.

Personally, I like Rodney and R2D for their friendly and professional service. But I have to agree with Shaun on the need to be a skeptic and question objectively, we all learn in the process. Anecdotes and personal experience is always far more seductive than objective evidence and fact.

 

[Jason8822]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

shuan,

referring to the chart interlay, i feel that due to the mod, higher peak torque comes in earlier and does not drop significantly below stock torque after 5200rpm
or you suspect they are not using the same car for the test?

however, going by honda's claim of peak torque at 4500rpm, it seems a bit wierd because the chart with the mod develop its peak torque at 4500rpm but the stock car put out its peak torque only around 5200rpm

in view of chart, i would say that their mod works.
but cannot understand how/why car on dyno without mod develop peak torque later

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

however, going by honda's claim of peak torque at 4500rpm, it seems a bit wierd because the chart with the mod develop its peak torque at 4500rpm but the stock car put out its peak torque only around 5200rpm.... cannot understand how/why car on dyno without mod develop peak torque later

10 points to Jason.

Pick any common NA engine
Look for its biggest online community internationally
Look for as many dynocharts of this stock engine, or even mildly tuned one (no hardware changes, just ignition timing and air fuel tweaks) as possible. Doesn't matter what type of dyno. Look at where peak torque is compared to factory.. it's always right there within a couple hundred of factory stock.. very often literally +/-50-100 RPM

So what does it take to move a peak torque location a full 1000++ RPM from stock? Alot.. This is because peak torque is a result mainly of charging efficiency of the cylinder which is determined by hardware like cylinder dimensions, head design, cam profile and phasing, etc. Basically trapping as much as you can. With AFR and ignition timing in the ballpark, you get your power. You cannot make huge gains tweaking just AFR and ignition timing or energy unless the OEM got it far wrong, and the OEMs just do NOT get it that wrong. You can however, make huge losses from stock, if you get tuning wrong.

So to bring about a major change in peak torque location without touching hardware, one of the following has to take place:

1) Artificially pump up torque levels outside of actual peak torque location to create new peak(s)
2) Artificially reduce torque levels at and around actual peak torque location to create new peak(s)

....or the car simply has something wrong with it (in which case why even use it for a test)

Option 2 is the easiest to carry out as creating loss is straightforward. There are a multitude of ways to do this and there is no point going into it.

An accidental or intentional creation of a weak reference is perhaps why a privateer is able to create a 17 whp mid range "gain" on a factory vehicle. Honda should fire their whole development team for that engine because as all OEMs race for efficiency, power, their whole team has missed out a huge ~20% (convert back to crank) of power improvement in the mid range.


With this flawed test, given:

- no publicly pre stated procedure,
- no witness
- ample prep time and the 3 hours in between runs (still don't know why so much time was required)
- a peak torque 1000+ RPM away from factory stock on a supposedly stock and healthy car
- 2 out of 3 axes on a different scale

any rational person can see there is nothing wrong in calling for a test that is much more proper.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Where do other independently dynoed 2007 and 2008 Accord 2.0s have their peak torques? The magnitude is less important than the location, given different dynos and conditions. This page has factory dyno plots (oversmoothed as usual, but still representative) as well as independent (lightly tuned) dynos and none of them move far from stock peak torque location. 2008 8G Honda Accord 2.0 MMC Dyno

 

[powersteer]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

was the accord sick prior to the 1st dyno run?
if so, wat was the problem? wat has been changed? (if any?)

if not .. was the difference between 1st and 2nd run (shown), purely ignition?

edit: was the dyno operating correctly?

 

[Red_Bean_Bun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

was the accord sick prior to the 1st dyno run?
if so, wat was the problem? wat has been changed? (if any?)

if not .. was the difference between 1st and 2nd run (shown)? purely ignition?

Kind of curious as well.....and why Honda ?

 

[jinooi]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Shaun, have been asking around and looking for a dyno place that allows a temp gauge to be inserted into the fuel tank (which means the fuel tank must be open).

So far no luck.

any suggestions?

all the places we have asked so far will not allow and open fuel tank whilst running the dyno.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Shaun, have been asking around and looking for a dyno place that allows a temp gauge to be inserted into the fuel tank (which means the fuel tank must be open).

So far no luck.

any suggestions?

all the places we have asked so far will not allow and open fuel tank whilst running the dyno.

Temperature sensor installed in a fuel rail is easy, cheap, and does not require an open fuel tank.

If fuel temp sensor install is deemed too much, then skipping the step and just run a full tank of 98 RON, and exclude that variable hoping that the large mass will minimize or damp fuel temp changes. It is not a big worry.

When you say "we" is that you and Rodney? Have you taken to speaking for Rodney? Can you answer the technical questions that have been asked by myself and a few of the other folks here?

How does a healthy and stock car have its peak torque shift 1000 RPM from stock location?
If the car was not healthy what was wrong with it?
Did the car leave the facility across the 3 hours? Why?
Why were 2 out of 3 of the axes scaled differently and why was there no overlay when we know software supports all these functions for proper comparison.

Are you beginning to realize there are major problems with the test you and a few others were so ready to accept?

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Shaun

If you have the guts, come down to the shop and see the whole process and then you can shoot off your mouth. The whole process takes about 1 hour to install properly and is not a simple plug and play install that can be done on the dyno itself. Stop insinuating and pulling everbody into this topic. The mod was done at Bukit Batok. Drive yourself there and back and feel the traffic yourself. People speak up for people or organisations they like or don't like. It is natural.

I have the print outs of the table of values for both runs. How Motor Image chooses to range of values is their perogative, i have no control. What gain do you get by trying to overlay the graphs? You spend time trying to "expose us", post cartoons that leaves a bad taste and needs to be removed by admin, insinuate and suggest malpractices. You do have an agenda. Want to verify the results, come to the shop! Anyone who wants to verify the graphs can come down to the shop and match the graph to the values. You are more than welcome.

You conveniently also forgot to mention that the "proven dyno runs for a common engine" comes from the manufacturer and they use engine dynos. There are only chassis dynos here and they provide different shapes compared to what you get in the brochure.

I have already wasted enough time on your crusade for the holy and true. In my earlier posts, i have claimed a small gain with this mod and now there is more than some small gain you refute the facts.

We are running a business and time is money. We have spent money and time to prove some results and now you want more proof. I do not intend to waste anymore time and effort to justify your cause.

Since you are the "guru" and the champion of the weak and ill-knowledged, stand up and say you will conduct the tests and fund the entire process. Pay for the sessions and prove the theory false. You ask for 15 conditions to be fulfilled knowing that these conditions will only be satisfied by a owner that is willing to have several of his hoses cut so that a stand alone data logger can be wired into the car. Air duct from air filter needs to be cut to insert an air temp probe, Engine oil needs to be drained to insert oil temp sensor. Radiator top hose needs to be cut too for the coolant sensor. To perform the tests according to your specifications, i estimate about $600 in materials and fluids, excluding your sensors and data logging equipment. Thereafter you can proceed to your favourite dyno house so that the operator will allow you to sit beside to operate your equipment. (incidently, motor image does not allow anyone into the testing room). I am sure this amount of money and equipment is within your reach?

We have never claimed a 10+% gain in power and torque throughout the entire thread. In fact, when we saw the torque gained, we too were surprised. So come off your high and mighty horse and perhaps you can learn a thing or 2. Life is a learning journey. When you stop learning, you stop growing. There are things that i read from your posts that contribute towards knowledge building.

Your efforts to slander the R2D name are commendable and insinuating that we are a load of bull shit with "so far i have seen 2 of such claims and they seem to come from 1 place" kind of remarks does nothing for us. To the casual reader, it would seem that you are trying to do the community a favour by warning everyone that "we peddle snake oil": We have earned a reputation over blood, sweat and tears. Before you get the opportunity to shoot the "other product" that is viewed as snake oil, I shall shoot it myself rather then give you the satisfaction. The greenplus that we sold previously was not brought in by us but rather YOUR BENEFACTOR. We went into business with him and he was the agent for the product. We have long since parted ways and we have chosen to drop the product due to a lack of scientific proof. We can do so at the shop cos we do not sign any consignment deals nor seek sponsorship from vendors so if the product is deemed unsatisfactory, we can drop them and find alternatives. Find another shop that operates like that? I am sure the forumers will love your remarks.

R2D thanks the many people who support us and find us reasonable bunch. We may not be the perfect shop but this is a work in progress. We are a small operation and would likely remain that way for some time.

Anyway, as an update to the honda accord, the car came back in on saturday. The car had a misfire and we found the plug in cylinder 2 had a very badly eroded ground electrode. The car was not using the iridium plugs that the honda japan recommends. It was the standard big tip plugs that are common. The rest of the 3 plugs was almost as bad. Apparently, the previous owner had not changed they plugs for a long time. 4 new plugs later, the car now runs fine and the owner is happy again. Why do i share this info? Shoot again lah!!!!

R2D

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Shaun

If you have the guts, come down to the shop and see the whole process and then you can shoot off your mouth. The whole process takes about 1 hour to install properly and is not a simple plug and play install that can be done on the dyno itself.

I'm not interested in watching an install of a product, only testing it. Does it work, and to what degree does it work. It can be -1hp, 1hp, 10hp, 100hp, doesn't matter to me. Just interested in a real test.

After the initial 1 hour install, how long does it take to disable and enable, for an ABAB dyno test to be carried out?

I have the print outs of the table of values for both runs. How Motor Image chooses to range of values is their perogative, i have no control. What gain do you get by trying to overlay the graphs?

Johnson (if he is still there and I am sure he is still there) is a knowledgeable and nice operator and I am sure he knows what he is doing having been trained and certified by the dyno manufacturer.

The customer always has a right to request for overlays and on the same axes. Johnson listens to requests. I am sure MI standard procedure is to listen to customer requests on simple options that can be checked in the software.

What is gained is clear and fast comparison for all who look at the supposed before and after plots. Also it is easier and faster to see anomalies such as in this case where you have somehow managed to shift peak torque on your supposedly stock Honda by 1000 RPM.

You conveniently also forgot to mention that the "proven dyno runs for a common engine" comes from the manufacturer and they use engine dynos. There are only chassis dynos here and they provide different shapes compared to what you get in the brochure.

Please don't raise straw man argument. Read last post again. Many internationally will independently chassis dyno their stock or very lightly tuned engines (say K20A or S54, etc). When you look at the peak torque location of their chassis dynos vs the factory engine dyno, you still find peak torque location extremely close to factory.

To move peak torque location 1000 RPM away from stock on an NA engine takes major work. You have not explained sufficiently how you accomplished this.

All readers are free to search out any popular NA engine's dynos on its leading international forum. Get 10 samples if you can, and look at peak torque location. Count the number of outliers, Be your own judge

I have already wasted enough time on your crusade for the holy and true. In my earlier posts, i have claimed a small gain with this mod and now there is more than some small gain you refute the facts.

The facts must be refuted because the test is seriously flawed in at least 5 ways listed in previous post, and with your latest revelation about the plug state.

Just as serious is not having stated procedure, no ABA at least, no witness, and an unexplained 3 hour gap between runs. Did the car leave the facility in that 3 hours? Why? Why was 3 hours needed? To do what?

We are running a business and time is money. We have spent money and time to prove some results and now you want more proof. I do not intend to waste anymore time and effort to justify your cause.

Very sad to realize that you are unwilling to openly and fairly test the product you sell so confidently.

Despite:

- your faithful supporters jinooi and rodders demanding conditions be stated
- community input on what makes a fair test
- clear procedure ready to be laid out based on community input and agreement
- Ryan volunteering his car and time
- free use of my loggers
- openly stated curiousity by a number of intelligent forum members here, as well as some who already installed your product

It seems that you are a fearful of even a basic scientific test.

Since you are the "guru" and the champion of the weak and ill-knowledged, stand up and say you will conduct the tests and fund the entire process. Pay for the sessions and prove the theory false.

I am sorry you do not understand the concept of burden of proof. You claim a gain (however small or big is fine), yet you do not test it properly at all. The burden of proof remains squarely on your shoulders.

With all the assistance and volunteers you already are offered, you should be grateful and not be demanding people asking the questions pay for your test.

You ask for 15 conditions to be fulfilled knowing that these conditions will only be satisfied by a owner that is willing to have several of his hoses cut so that a stand alone data logger can be wired into the car. Air duct from air filter needs to be cut to insert an air temp probe, Engine oil needs to be drained to insert oil temp sensor. Radiator top hose needs to be cut too for the coolant sensor. To perform the tests according to your specifications, i estimate about $600 in materials and fluids, excluding your sensors and data logging equipment. Thereafter you can proceed to your favourite dyno house so that the operator will allow you to sit beside to operate your equipment. (incidently, motor image does not allow anyone into the testing room). I am sure this amount of money and equipment is within your reach?

Please read earlier posts again.

Realize that most fluid temps change very slowly. 1Hz sampling is sufficient. Ryan's car (as volunteered) already has oil and water temp gauges. OBDII logging of the temps is also practical and cheap. Already includes IAT I bet. If not, a manual reading of the IAT requires only a single drill and tap. It can be plugged thereafter. I am sure Ryan has no problem with this.

Do not assume a second person has to be in the car. I am aware of MI dynocell rules. You forget I have a ton of compact and HD video systems that can be used to read gauges. All the operator has to do before each run is just speak "run 1" and then proceed with the pull. 1Hz changes in temp are too easy to keep track off.

So come off your high and mighty horse and perhaps you can learn a thing or 2. Life is a learning journey. When you stop learning, you stop growing. There are things that i read from your posts that contribute towards knowledge building.

Very true, but I think you need to come off your high horse and admit that the previous test was seriously flawed, and be willing to run a simple, practical, affordable test. Jinooi said he'll chip in, Ryan's car is at your disposal, as are my loggers, video systems, etc.

You also have no short supply of neutral witnesses.

The greenplus that we sold previously was not brought in by us but rather YOUR BENEFACTOR. We went into business with him and he was the agent for the product. We have long since parted ways and we have chosen to drop the product due to a lack of scientific proof. We can do so at the shop cos we do not sign any consignment deals nor seek sponsorship from vendors so if the product is deemed unsatisfactory, we can drop them and find alternatives.

Who is my benefactor? You mean Cheng Poh? How does Cheng Poh benefit me? Last I spoke to him was probably 11 years ago.

So you take on a product, and you push a product (do we need to go back and dig it up?) without testing, then later you decide it lacks proof so you drop it. So at anytime you can pick up untested products and promote it, then decide on a whim later on to drop it?

Shouldn't you thoroughly test all products (including ignition booster) before you sell it?

Anyway, as an update to the honda accord, the car came back in on saturday. The car had a misfire and we found the plug in cylinder 2 had a very badly eroded ground electrode. The car was not using the iridium plugs that the honda japan recommends. It was the standard big tip plugs that are common. The rest of the 3 plugs was almost as bad. Apparently, the previous owner had not changed they plugs for a long time. 4 new plugs later, the car now runs fine and the owner is happy again. Why do i share this info? Shoot again lah!!!!

Ah so if all these questions had not been asked, would you have volunteered this information that confirms your previous test as invalid?

If the plug condition was so bad, how is it that the later test is improved? A bad plug should hurt all tests, especially the last test. Yet it was the last test that was healthy and had peak torque right at the factory stock location. How is this so?

You did not hear any problem with the car? No one could feel a problem driving it down and back, or during a pull? Amazing.

Until a proper test is carried out, all questions will remain unanswered, and new questions will pile on. It is not shooting, but simple curiousity. It's not about big, small, agenda, poor, rich, competitor, ricebowl, friend, enemy, hardship, etc. but simple scientific standards. Of course I would prefer if the company / person making claims or running crazy tests was a big company, rich stranger. Makes it easier to ask the questions.

You forget that I used to MTB every week with Darryl and his brother as a good friends, did a couple of races, probably covered thousands of km. When we lost contact we were still friends. Obviously nothing against him. As for you, you were always the awesomely friendly chap helping CP out his electrical work on different cars, and a integral part of one of the earliest and biggest "major" automotive projects of my life back then. At the time it was major and unprecedented, and still is nothing to sniff at even after 11 years. If anything, I should be accused of having a bias in favour of R2D because I've known both of you as friends before. Why would I try and target friends specifically? I am all for friends and underdogs, etc. It's just that the standards here are more important.

What Roberto said is very true and is worth repeating here "This is an enthusiast's forum, not for industry players. Merchants starting threads are welcome where accepted but they must have the EQ to respond to criticism in a way that maintains the friendly atmosphere and without getting anyone's guard up (especially since this is so typically singaporean already). They are getting real cheap (and sometimes) free advertising. So say what you want with ordinary care, but if any merchant is going to be uncool in defending himself, he should simply take out a second mortgage and start advertising in the papers instead of posting on threads here......We certainly don't want a forum where you would feel constrained in your expression....the forum is meant for us not merchants, they are welcome where welcomed, but they are definitely the 'accessories' and not the 'engine' of the thing."

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

And in case any new forummer is wondering what this Green Plus fuel catalyst thing is all about and why it is being discussed now, here is its history on this forum. And yes it involved Yendor / Rodney / R2D certainly making some confident claims about it. There were good individual reviews too based on feel. No proper tests were ever conducted.

http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/bazaar-bmw-parts-accessories/21381-green-plus-fuel-catalyst.html

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Tthe car and results was dynoed with the same plugs and so the results are valid as a point of reference, IMO. The car was driven to toa payoh, dynoed, unstrapped, paid, results printed and driven back to bukit batok to perform the work. Another person drove the car and brought it there. After the work, he drove it back to test again. Hence the 3hours.

ABA testing can be done. Are you willing to come up with the money and compensate us for my time? I am not backing down from the challenge.

Just to tell you that from a business point of view, i have already spent $300 of our profits just to claim back some credibility. And this credibility is also in question by you.

I have come off my horse several times as can be testified by several customers when they teach me new things. My point is that you yourself do not even know how the process is done and yet you spew out all this.

I do know that Ryan has offered to use his car and also foot the bills for the dyno sessions. My question is why him? Why not you? Why must the moderator come in and use his money to find an amicable ground? For a ABA test, its $450 at least. Assuming MI does not raise the price. We were told they are ending the offer soon. So how about it? Why Jin? Why ryan? Why not you?

Since you know the dyno operator so well, go ask him about the honda accord that came in for the test. No time to go down? Office hours not good? Come see the table of values. Stop nitpicking.

I was right. Knowing about the accord that came back and posting about the problems will create another round of comments by you. As for the sick car, we did not know of the problems. Just come in, install and go back to test again. So why is the results not valid? Its a AB test. Before and After....period. the initial test may have flawed results cos the spark gap grew bigger over time and the ECU could have adapted. After the work, the spark would be stronger and thus restored some of its combustion efficiency. I left myself totally out of the test other than the work conducted. If we were out to get big big figures, dun you think that i would do things like remove the air filter and go to another dyno facility which can give more results?

Why bring in Darryl, his brother and other people? Again, i question your methods to seek out the truth. We did not take on greenplus out of our own free will. It was never R2D's to begin with. Why some people fight for us is due to the fact that they know the beginings of the shop and thus want to protect the future. That is also on our minds here. You attack the credibility of the shop head on and this is definitely not cool. That is why you draw flack from other forumers too. If you pursue the truth, be the bigger man and police all the threads and go after false claims. If you smell a rat, fish it out......across the board. Search through your own posts and ignition data and you will somehow find answers to your own questions on why this ignition mod will work. I will supplement with wiring diagrams and photos of actual live schematics and physical wire sizes.

So now you bring in Roberto's post again. I have let this thread die down and not reply each and every post. Even though we have spoken to Ryan and his advice was to cool off, you still are pressing for the data in a manner that is suited to your ways. You have a background in motorsports back in USA and you try to apply those principles here, they just dun tally. The goal posts will just move. If i have my own dyno facility, then conducting tests would not be a problem.

I urge you to come down to the shop and we can talk about the facts and figures and the workings of everything. I dun expect you to accept this invitation right now but mull over it. I will also share some pitfalls of your own interest and explain where these come from. (nothing to do with cars and bikes)

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Tthe car and results was dynoed with the same plugs and so the results are valid as a point of reference, IMO. The car was driven to toa payoh, dynoed, unstrapped, paid, results printed and driven back to bukit batok to perform the work. Another person drove the car and brought it there. After the work, he drove it back to test again. Hence the 3hours.

That's strange because why not prepare the mod, disable it, so it does not need to leave the facility. Or have second set prepped and bolt out bolt in swap. Or even bring the tools to do it at the facility.

You have not explained how the last pull is strong and has peak torque right where it should be (factory) on the same bad plugs that were in it the first run.

ABA testing can be done. Are you willing to come up with the money and compensate us for my time? I am not backing down from the challenge.

I might be willing to come up with the money for the dyno, but I'm not going to compensate you for your time. The burden of proof rests on you and you alone. It's disgusting that you ask people to pay for the tests when you sell the products.

Just to tell you that from a business point of view, i have already spent $300 of our profits just to claim back some credibility. And this credibility is also in question by you.

300 is not a big deal. You sell a few of these systems you make it back. You test it well and it tests strong and true, you sell even more, you make it back. It's fantastic and going in all these different models of cars right? More power to you, more profit. Don't play the pity game please.

My point is that you yourself do not even know how the process is done and yet you spew out all this.

I know exactly how tests should be run for a given budget and facility. I have answered every technical point relating to the test.

I do know that Ryan has offered to use his car and also foot the bills for the dyno sessions. My question is why him? Why not you? Why must the moderator come in and use his money to find an amicable ground? For a ABA test, its $450 at least. Assuming MI does not raise the price. We were told they are ending the offer soon. So how about it? Why Jin? Why ryan? Why not you?

Rodney, don't forget that the only reason ryan has to offer his car, myself my equipment and time, and jinooi a portion of the costs, is exactly because you keep insisting you cannot afford it. And somehow all your tests are non existent or completely flawed.

You must see how ridiculous the situation is. If everyone else pays for you to prove your product, what are you going to do.. profit share? Don't be silly.

Since you know the dyno operator so well, go ask him about the honda accord that came in for the test. No time to go down? Office hours not good? Come see the table of values. Stop nitpicking.

Johnson's word and your word does not really matter in terms of the test. There is no neutral witness who is there for the specific purpose. No open and agreed upon procedure before it. The procedure you created entirely alone, was completely flawed. The car state completely poor by your own admission (lately).

We did not take on greenplus out of our own free will. It was never R2D's to begin with.

Rodney, you argued for, promoted, and sold greenplus under your own name and now you say it was not out of your own free will?

Is it possible that a couple years from now you'll claim this ignition mod was never sold out of your free will and that you had other investors who silently pressured you into doing what you did?

It's ridiculous that you can even suggest this and try and absolve yourself of what you did and said in the past. Is this a forum for adults or not? Are you an adult?

If you pursue the truth, be the bigger man and police all the threads and go after false claims. If you smell a rat, fish it out......across the board.

I have done that. You seem to have forgotten how many individuals and businesses I have questions over the years here. And despite this being repeated so many times, your and your friends are unable to identify anything that you think should be scrutinized. The claims on this forum most deserving of scrutiny, have been this ignition mod, green plus, broquet, volker plugs. None of them have been tested properly by the scientific standard. 3 out of the 4 have been sold / are sold by you, Rodney.

Search through your own posts and ignition data and you will somehow find answers to your own questions on why this ignition mod will work. I will supplement with wiring diagrams and photos of actual live schematics and physical wire sizes. [/quote]

Why go through 200 pages of technical description, theory, etc.? Who is going to type it all? Who is going to read it all? Who will judge?

The proof is in the pudding. Run a proper test.. simple.

The goal posts will just move.

Your claim that the posts will move is a poor excuse for you to flee a proper test. If I move posts (from agreed upon procedure stated before the test), it will be evident on this thread and the community will judge.

At this point it seems you will claim anything to get out of a proper test.

I urge you to come down to the shop and we can talk about the facts and figures and the workings of everything. I dun expect you to accept this invitation right now but mull over it. I will also share some pitfalls of your own interest and explain where these come from. (nothing to do with cars and bikes)

I am not interested in talking for hours with anyone over ignition theory, or have any psychological sage tell me how they think they are right, and I am wrong.

I care only that a proper test is run.

 

[totoseow]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

eh why dun u 2 just go n talk. the skinny one is not capable of starting a fight..n rod is a nice gentleman. so for the interest of everyone here and to satisy yourselves why dun u 2 just meet up? both of u r good in whatever u do. im not ashame to call both my friends. both are honourable people in ur respective trades, which in my eyes i hv conviction in.

so save me or anyone else who knows both of u the pain of watching this pointless arguments.

for me, its a cheap enuf mod...i consider such thigns butt feel mods. there is no need to waste money to go into expensive testings to prove 1 hp. i hv never seen a dyno result here that looks spectacularly accurate anyway......

so cut these chatter n meet up n share your knowledge. wudnt u?

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

Well at the end of the day, we are selling some mods which we claim to work. My business model does not cater to providing this mod works based on your methodology. If my customers trust the shop, they will continue to use and buy my services. If they do not, so be it.

You are armed with knowledge while i may am not as well versed as you. More importantly, this whole exercise is personally driven as i am in a lose -lose situation. To prove my low-margin product, I have to waste my time to do recurring tests based on your criteria while you simply hide behind a screen and snipe me.

If i could prove anything beyond your doubt, i have nothing to gain as before, aftyer wasting all time and efforts. You on the other hand, will gain from your spirit of truth seeking at my expense? If i could not prove the general "buttfeel", will you crucify me like I am the greatest snakeoil peddler in the world? It is a

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

At the end of the day, any test you called for is really to suit your quest. Even with the benefit of doubt accorded to you that you are really objective and not personal. I doubt all this hoohahs are meant for the greater good of the forum. So since its its for your quest for truth, i will turn the table around . request that you conduct the test with the presence of all who have modded the ignition upgrade. This would clarify your doubts and i could clarify everything with my customers. I urge you to take up this challenge. Else stop this conversation here and now.

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

eh why dun u 2 just go n talk. the skinny one is not capable of starting a fight..n rod is a nice gentleman. so for the interest of everyone here and to satisy yourselves why dun u 2 just meet up? both of u r good in whatever u do. im not ashame to call both my friends. both are honourable people in ur respective trades, which in my eyes i hv conviction in.

so save me or anyone else who knows both of u the pain of watching this pointless arguments.

for me, its a cheap enuf mod...i consider such thigns butt feel mods. there is no need to waste money to go into expensive testings to prove 1 hp. i hv never seen a dyno result here that looks spectacularly accurate anyway......

so cut these chatter n meet up n share your knowledge. wudnt u?

i tried to invite him down but my horse too high....he not tall enough....say cannot....

maybe he thinks i talking cock and not worth his time.

anyways.......sian......

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

What's next? Are you going to question that Shell V Power gives more performance? Are you going to compare the fuel against let's say Caltex or Esso in a qualitative and scientific manner? How about KW V3 vs Bilstein PSS 10? How about engine oils? Wanna prove that if i carry Mobil that it is better than everthing else on the market? How about brake pads?

More straw men. You have no logic.

Has Shell officially claimed more power out of V power and attached a theory to it? Shell only claims cleaning ability of the fuel. Is cleaning ability of the fuel something I can test properly within practical limits? It is not. Same for vs the other fuels. What is the craziest bit of shell info? Is there a portion that looks false to you?

Do you see shell advertizing on the forum here? Starting a thread to sell V power?

Has KW or Bilstein ever made a specific claim on their product vs a specific other make/model, detailing what exactly is different? No. Quality damper dynos aren't even available locally. False claims? Where's the thread here?

Where is mobil's claim of improved power vs any oil, or a specific oil? Where's the thread?

Brake pads can be tested easily in real life. What claim of which pad would like to test and to prove disprove which crazy claims? Where are these claims on the forum?

Don't attempt to pull other reputable companies and products in with you just because the situation is entirely different. You are on the forum, you create threads promoting your products and services, you make specific claims - claims that can be proven / disproven within a day or half a day even. It is ok for people to question.


===

Jeremy,

There's nothing honourable about selling product that you make claims about but do not prove, and then react irrationally and asked about it.

There's nothing left to do but test it. Meeting up to chat accomplishes nothing. Every technical point has been met with silence.

Jeremy, please don't try and smooth things over by saying you have never seen a dyno result that is accurate. It has been done many many times and I have seen it. Let's not put dynos down for the sake of someone who denies burden of proof.

The argument may not have a point to you, but there may be to others. The forum is for all, so those who do not wish to read can click X, or read elsewhere about things they want. Please don't try and stop free speech that does not break forum law. Thanks man

 

[Shaun]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

I doubt all this hoohahs are meant for the greater good of the forum. So since its its for your quest for truth, i will turn the table around . request that you conduct the test with the presence of all who have modded the ignition upgrade. This would clarify your doubts and i could clarify everything with my customers. I urge you to take up this challenge. Else stop this conversation here and now.

Your doubts, fears, are all assumptions.. conjecture... they have no place here.

There is a claim, and it can be tested. So let's properly test it. I don't care if you stuff the viewing room with whoever you want.

 

[R2D]

Re: Ignition Upgrades

More straw men. You have no logic.

My logic is money and time vs your credentials

Has Shell officially claimed more power out of V power and attached a theory to it? Shell only claims cleaning ability of the fuel. Is cleaning ability of the fuel something I can test properly within practical limits? It is not. Same for vs the other fuels. What is the craziest bit of shell info? Is there a portion that looks false to you?

Shell claimed that the fuel has friction modifying agents that releases more power.

Do you see shell advertizing on the forum here? Starting a thread to sell V power?

They are not advertising, but i am... what's your point?

Has KW or Bilstein ever made a specific claim on their product vs a specific other make/model, detailing what exactly is different? No. Quality damper dynos aren't even available locally. False claims? Where's the thread here?

So when a person says this shock is better, must they prove it?

Where is mobil's claim of improved power vs any oil, or a specific oil? Where's the thread?

Mobil has long used the E36 as their test bed and claim that 1000000 miles and there is negligible engine wear.

Brake pads can be tested easily in real life. What claim of which pad would like to test and to prove disprove which crazy claims? Where are these claims on the forum?

So you buy a set of pads from every vendor just to prove a claim?

Don't attempt to pull other reputable companies and products in with you just because the situation is entirely different. You are on the forum, you create threads promoting your products and services, you make specific claims - claims that can be proven / disproven within a day or half a day even. It is ok for people to question.

I dun pull their reputation. I am illustrating your intense observation over R2D. R2D pays money to be a site sponsor here. Its not free. If we cheated anyone, voice it out. If i cheated you, voice it out..


===

Jeremy,

There's nothing honourable about selling product that you make claims about but do not prove, and then react irrationally and asked about it.

There's nothing left to do but test it. Meeting up to chat accomplishes nothing. Every technical point has been met with silence.

Jeremy, please don't try and smooth things over by saying you have never seen a dyno result that is accurate. It has been done many many times and I have seen it. Let's not put dynos down for the sake of someone who denies burden of proof.

The argument may not have a point to you, but there may be to others. The forum is for all, so those who do not wish to read can click X, or read elsewhere about things they want. Please don't try and stop free speech that does not break forum law. Thanks man

So what is stopping you from Clicking X and and get out of my thread?