Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

[Shaun]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

re-reading some of the posts, i feel the need to clarify some things. Organisers never need a free ride. I certainly didnt do this to save $195. Reality is, very often i have no time to have a proper track day anyways. First half hour to 45 mins is usually spent waiting for latecomers, another 15-30mins is to help orientate some newbies, last 15-30mins is spent at the sepang office making payment, doing PR work with the sepang staff (again, this is where grey > black&white). I can go after the red flag comes on, but I'll be the last one to leave sepang and either I go back alone or friends have to wait for me. So I go 15-30mins before. It is extremely ironic when the cost of traveling up and down sepang is > $195 or 450rm. Reading some of the post, made me sound very gian perng.

Hi Shawn, I don't know what gian perng means, but if I understand the paragraph correctly, I would have to say that at no point was it ever suggested that any organizer needs free rides. All I ever mentioned was that it is standard practice in other clubs that all organizers get to track for free if and when they can and that it is only right! And while it is a perk, it is a microscopic one, yes. The cost of the 6 hour roundtrip, wear and tear on the car, fuel, tolls, hotel, etc. is definitely way more than that. I think everyone understands this.

3rd, I never complained that this is a thankless job.

For sure you have never complained. When I mentioned was that while it is a tough job, it's just my opinion that it is not a thankless one ( a term many use to describe it - not that you use the term yourself)

4th, means-testing, friend friend with drivers who drive expensive cars. Please come and know me on a personal level then you decide ok.

Again what was mentioned as an example and having been seen at other clubs, not that it is happening to this one. It's just fear of the slippery slope that's all.

There was also general description of the sociological tendencies. This is everywhere in society and seen in automotive circles as well. The nature of performance driving, racing, etc. attracts aggressive, persistent, personalities... and of course, all who participate as drivers especially in upper end European cars, and esp in Singapore, naturally have to have money. It's almost without exception not a place to look for humble, warm, laid back folks. who don't try and suss people up fast, figure out if they're worth their time or friendship etc. And that's all I was saying..

How close and old the relationship between people was another factor mentioned, as was age of the member in the club, etc. all natural factors too. So I hope you don't focus on the negative or the most negative inference out of the generalities mentioned.

separately, I need to reconcile one more thing. How many of you, with at least a few solid years of tracking in sepang without wrong techniques or bad habits, are willing to drive all the way to sepang, orientate newbies for about an hour, then drive back to Singapore? Or, how many of you are willing to devote, or apportion out one third of your track time to help out with newbies, show them the lines, and thereafter perhaps evaluate them again when they have tried it out for a while? In a black and white world perhaps it would be easy to find. But in reality, I need all the help I can to make sure the newbies get orientated safely, and I can only sit with 1. The others will not wait around and let their track time get wasted. I completely do not blame any trackkie if they want to maximise their 3 hours doing their own things, because this is what you pay for exactly. Then like that how?

If I happen to be unbooked at a trackday I'd gladly help you out man. But that's up to others because it can be viewed in negatively light as canvassing for ASC. It is possible to come up with a very high quality orientation video that incorporates on board video, diagrams, narration, etc. It can help prepare all trackers, and can be hosted online.

Mate it is noble of you to think of all but honestly, life is never that simple as we all know. And sometimes flexibility is a better solution to strict adherence to rules. For example, if I had my way, no newbies would be allowed on the track when there are more than 5 cars for the simple reason that it increases the danger for others. Also they would need to have an experienced driver sit with them for at least 3 BMWSG track days before they be allowed out. And many other things that I would think would consitute a perfect track day. Like not allowing those that have driven up in convoy dangerously on the track. Or banning those that have had a prior accident record on the road, or track etc etc etc.

Very true, but in this case I don't think anyone is even asking for anything remotely near to perfect or anything alienating anyone. It was a discussion in which suggestions for possible improvements were made, but now a few people have spoken forcefully and there is a vocal majority, so it's over. I don't think suggesting improvements should be equated with being ungrateful. I'm sure Louis is grateful for the time he had at the recent trackday. If we can't discuss ideas without taking it personally, it's a bit sad.

So ok.. conclusion is circumstances are always different, have some trust, things are subjective, and it all comes down to organizers' discretion. I hope everyone at the point of signup understands this when they read the apparently objective process in the signup threads.

Cheers all

Oh and I have never had anything against anyone - Shawn, Jeremy, Lung, Gerald , or been pissed or angry about any trackday. They've all been great and I've always made sure to thank Shawn and previously, Jack. Now I'm not even sure if it's Shawn alone organizing, Shawn and Jack, or Shawn, Jack, and Gerald.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Looking through some trackday photos that were just sent to me, just realized that there were 2 new Boxster Spyders at this trackday, which means Wilson wasn't on the list either. Just to be fair to the rest that were listed before. ok goodnight

 

[louis]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Very true, but in this case I don't think anyone is even asking for anything remotely near to perfect or anything alienating anyone. It was a discussion in which suggestions for possible improvements were made, but now a few people have spoken forcefully and there is a vocal majority, so it's over. I don't think suggesting improvements should be equated with being ungrateful. I'm sure Louis is grateful for the time he had at the recent trackday. If we can't discuss ideas without taking it personally, it's a bit sad.

Thanks for speaking up too Shaun. As you have said, at no point was I ungrateful for the efforts put in, and to clarify to all, at no point did i give RB personal grief over my exclusion from the March TD. It was cited simply as an example of the non-transparent registration process. And yes, I still do think its non-transparent although I also acknowledge that it is the prerogative of the organizers to make the decision that "non-transparency", otherwise referred to as "flexibility" and "discretion", is the preferred state of affairs.

Like Shaun has suggested, at least make this be known first. Well, after 3 pages of discussion, the stakeholders who are keen to opine have already spoken and I suppose it should be clear to all now that the majority are happy with this current arrangement. So be it.

People who disagree can make their own decisions whether they would still want to participate. Its not cricket however, to label them and then invite them to forfeit their prerogative as members to continue to participate in BMW-SG TDs. As has been mentioned in this and other discussion threads, we're all adults here and we should be able to discuss ideas without taking it personally.

Lastly, I haven't stated this explicitly, but i will now: Thanks for organizing the TDs Shawn.

cheers

p.s. it is somewhat amusing that bureaucracy has been equated to transparency during this discussion... when in fact flipping through the local newspaper forum pages will tell you that the strategy of "deliberate ambiguity" in policy and governance is a frequent source of grief to the population (e.g. redrawing of electoral boundaries)

 

[totoseow]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

personally i understand where everyone is coming from. when i was going thru my initial training with dataface, i was always concerned about traffic. it stops me from doing what i need to do. shaun speaking up may or may not have been with vested interest. i doubt it frankly. he is a black and white guy and we r good friends. i dun take offence he 'used' my case as an eg. i think its good we all spoke about it in this manner. at least we know what can happen in future TDs.

lets move on and be safe.

RB next time just ask for help. im sure some of us will be happy giving orientation laps.

 

[Shaun]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

shaun speaking up may or may not have been with vested interest. i doubt it frankly. he is a black and white guy and we r good friends. i dun take offence he 'used' my case as an eg. i think its good we all spoke about it in this manner. at least we know what can happen in future TDs.

Definitely. In fact it goes the other way... I was kind of worried that people might start talking about how the ASC guys are never on the list and why should they be exempt from normal signup procedures whilesilently raise the car count!

lets move on

Ok Mr Wong KS

 

[harold996tt]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Oh and I have never had anything against anyone - Shawn, Jeremy, Lung, Gerald , or been pissed or angry about any trackday. They've all been great and I've always made sure to thank Shawn and previously, Jack. Now I'm not even sure if it's Shawn alone organizing, Shawn and Jack, or Shawn, Jack, and Gerald.

All I know is Toto takes it up the backside.

 

[totoseow]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

steam ah....i love PITA

 

[Racebred]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Thanks louis and shaun. You guys have been long term supporters of the tds since a long time back, especially in the days when we desperately needed to persuade people to come try try track a bit. Your feedback and observation is part of an improvement process any system in any industry needs, even here. I see and understand your points.

Personal stuff aside, let's discuss objective points here. We do have a serious need for orientators. One of the primary premise of our organisation of the bmwsg td is an emphasis on safety. However, our aim of opening up the sport to any interested enthusiast in the club means we have on average 12-18 newbies every track day. That's about 1/3 to close to half. It's substantial. A portion of them, say 4-8, usually has a friend to help out. That's great. But the rest of the newbies do need orientation. Some dont even know where the pit entrance is. The stint that we bring them out in, for just perhaps 4-5 laps, explaining how track driving works, to safety SOP, will shorten the learning curve tremendously. And reduce chances of incidences happening. With the correct mindset, we even reduce our red flag times.

I have stopped the orientation train + walkie talkie method. Because I realise its not fair to the rest of the field who are using the track. So, it's going to be one-to-one from now, unless the rest of the trackkies fully agree to let the orientation convoy get onto the track and block it up for 20mins. Then I will only need one more orientator to help out for a total of 2 convoys. That's good enough. Therefore....

I usually need 4-5 more people to help out. Any newbie who has to wait for an orientator to come back from the first round, has to wait up to 20-30mins. So the more the merrier. Newbies are also discouraged to go out on their maiden lap on their own too. So with the prospect of volunteering to orientate and then losing 30 mins, it's become difficult to gather them. And orientators also need to be fairly experienced, with a fair knowledge of our internal SOP, and not have any tracking bad habits, so that the newbies start out right. This coming track day, it would really be ideal if I can now have another 4-5. I have always depended on gerald jack and wilson for past track days. Like that how? Will anyone else step up?

Also, not forgeting Karam, who has volunteered to lead the newbie convoy up. I used to do that but I realised its better I arrive an hour earlier to make sure that sepang has prepped the place for us. So, thanks, bro!

Next, are we ready to begin registration for July? I've been holding back the new thread for couple of days.. Also, how many track days do we want for 2012? I will start blocking off the most ideal dates for ourselves. In a few months time, the SIC calendar for 2012 will be considerably more populated, as I have experienced last year.

 

[TripleM]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

i help a bit la like being kay poh to be a taxi whore
actually, i m there to see if Harold eventually turns up or not after he signed up

 

[Elite]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

... And orientators also need to be fairly experienced, with a fair knowledge of our internal SOP, and not have any tracking bad habits, so that the newbies start out right. This coming track day, it would really be ideal if I can now have another 4-5. I have always depended on gerald jack and wilson for past track days. Like that how? Will anyone else step up?

Shawn -- Certainly glad to help out but definitely have bad habits and certainly am not at the level of the rest yet -- so if you're okay with that let me know

... Next, are we ready to begin registration for July? I've been holding back the new thread for couple of days..

Yes -- time to sign up for July ! More tires and pads -- $$$$

... Also, how many track days do we want for 2012? I will start blocking off the most ideal dates for ourselves. In a few months time, the SIC calendar for 2012 will be considerably more populated, as I have experienced last year.

Definitely much slots as possible -- gives everyone maximal flexibility for scheduling, and given the interest and support, should resolve many of the demand issues. And in the unlikely event of low turnout, definitely am willing to support and pay more for a lower traffic TD ....

And definitely AM slots for best logistical convenience and mechnical frendliness to the cars

 

[totoseow]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

ok i will help....n i wun show the right lines...if not all become better than me. i teach them take T14 in 5th gear

 

[edlms]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

suggestion - can volunteers been given a discount?

ps. i cannot volunteer cos i no good driver in no good car...

 

[ryan]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

I don't mind orienting new guys onto track - am up for being a volunteer!

 

[dazza]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

It looks like there is enough demand for a track day every month in 2012

And even if there wasn't I also wouldn't mind paying more if there happened to be less cars.

July!.....lets go!!!

 

[Shaun]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

I don't mind orienting new guys onto track - am up for being a volunteer!

Shawn said drivers with no bad habits. He did not say drivers with severe bad habits :errrrrrr:

 

[ryan]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

One more thing after re-reading the last 5 pages.

I don't understand how X number of people get on the track day without listing their names - and yet we close the track day list and people don't get on after that. I say this because I did get comments from 2 individuals taking part on Saturday saying that there was quite a bit of traffic. I also do understand the need for being flexible and keeping the limit as stated (since people are expecting what they pay for) but preferential treatment is a different matter altogether.

Some of the suggestions that are raised are pretty useful. Also - It'd be good to start on a few new clean forum threads instead of keeping everything on one thread. As always, always appreciative of TD management by organizers and organisation.

Looking forward to the next one!

 

[harold996tt]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

ok i will help....n i wun show the right lines...if not all become better than me. i teach them take T14 in 5th gear

For the newbies. you need to take turn 14 in first. as well as turn 3. And turn 5/6. and turn 12/13. as well as 7/8. All other corners can be taken in 5th gear like toto said.

toto is such a selfish ass.

 

[harold996tt]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

By the way if people trust me, I am ok to take people on slow orientation laps to ease the burden. After all I am for the social side of things and don't care so much for track time anymore.

 

[louis]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

One more thing after re-reading the last 5 pages.

I don't understand how X number of people get on the track day without listing their names - and yet we close the track day list and people don't get on after that. I say this because I did get comments from 2 individuals taking part on Saturday saying that there was quite a bit of traffic. I also do understand the need for being flexible and keeping the limit as stated (since people are expecting what they pay for) but preferential treatment is a different matter altogether.

Some of the suggestions that are raised are pretty useful. Also - It'd be good to start on a few new clean forum threads instead of keeping everything on one thread. As always, always appreciative of TD management by organizers and organisation.

Looking forward to the next one!

Dear Ryan,

Welcome to the discussion, albeit a little late . Shaun and I were asking the same questions and we got our answers. You will eventually obtain nirvana too, but you just have to :fineprin:

I empathise that reading through all 5 pages again can be rather painful and time consuming so I've found the shortest answer that's been posted thus far to save you the effort:

RB, for those with problems in the way you conduct your track days I have one simple comment- dont sign up for them. And go organise your own. For goodness sakes. What a bunch of ungrateful tools.

 

[Racebred]

Re: Official 2011 BMWSG Sepang Track Day thread

Ryan, including orientation helps, there were 42 cars on the track. Like I said the "flexibility" was to account for miscomm from 3 registrants. As the organiser I did not contribute to this miscomm, but I contributed by making a decision by not asking them to turn back, sorry. Pls note that the 'preferential treatment' being mentioned is blind to who you are and what you drive. It's prefential to the situation that requires a judgement call. It could jolly well be an ugly lesbian with body odour driving a vios with drum brakes whom i've met for the first time. Again, call me if you want details. There's no point naming names here.

Thanks to all those who volunteered for orientation. Its just about enough. We will be identified during the safety brief and then we can proceed. It shouldnt take more than half an hour.