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Prices for Bimmers
- Thread starter ktnpl
- Start date
Re: Prices for Bimmers
Was at the showroom recently and saw the 318i. Going for less than 110k.
The difference between this and the 320i are:
1. synthetic leather
2. no rear aircon ducts
3. no fold-down seats
4. a lesser engine, that churns of 136 hp instead of 156 for the 320.
all in all, a good deal, comes with all electric seats (front) + gps (external).
Was at the showroom recently and saw the 318i. Going for less than 110k.
The difference between this and the 320i are:
1. synthetic leather
2. no rear aircon ducts
3. no fold-down seats
4. a lesser engine, that churns of 136 hp instead of 156 for the 320.
all in all, a good deal, comes with all electric seats (front) + gps (external).
motorknut
Well-Known Member
Re: Prices for Bimmers
it would depend what date EUR rate was used for the OMV calculation. the rate fluctuated in 09. If OMV is based on the SGD price paid (meaning, using the actual FX rate PML used for the shipment payment & costs) then it's not strange that OMV is fluctuating like that. I would assume that's how it's calculated, and not LTA deciding to convert PML's EUR costs at the prevailing spot rate at time of registration.
But of course, if OMV is lower, consumers have the choice of bargaining based on that point.
c722;443930 said:
it would depend what date EUR rate was used for the OMV calculation. the rate fluctuated in 09. If OMV is based on the SGD price paid (meaning, using the actual FX rate PML used for the shipment payment & costs) then it's not strange that OMV is fluctuating like that. I would assume that's how it's calculated, and not LTA deciding to convert PML's EUR costs at the prevailing spot rate at time of registration.
But of course, if OMV is lower, consumers have the choice of bargaining based on that point.
Re: Prices for Bimmers
this is the usual BS argument given by the dealers, and in this case it's totally not possible. For example, EUR rate now is much higher than Mar 2009 (2.04 now compared with 1.98 then), even with the same equipment the OMV would have been higher! And now it supposedly has more accessories. Comfort access alone is a 9k item if to buy it. There is no logic at all if the OMV is purely based on the cost of the car.
What I understand is, the OMV is based on declaration by the dealer, that includes not only the "manufacturer's cost", but the "shipping/handling" too. The 2nd part is completely "unknown" ...
Well complaints aside, I resign to the fact that there is simply no way we can ever win over dealers. After all we agreed on a price, whatever the OMV and COE. It's a willing buyer willing seller business.
oh yea since now the OMV figure is out, new buyers should bargain hard. At 51k OMV, the price should drop back to abt 160k level. We did the deal before the cars are here, betting on both COE and OMV. We were right on the COE but wrong on the OMV. Now since you know, so you should demand a price that is more fair.
motorknut;444169 said:
this is the usual BS argument given by the dealers, and in this case it's totally not possible. For example, EUR rate now is much higher than Mar 2009 (2.04 now compared with 1.98 then), even with the same equipment the OMV would have been higher! And now it supposedly has more accessories. Comfort access alone is a 9k item if to buy it. There is no logic at all if the OMV is purely based on the cost of the car.
What I understand is, the OMV is based on declaration by the dealer, that includes not only the "manufacturer's cost", but the "shipping/handling" too. The 2nd part is completely "unknown" ...
Well complaints aside, I resign to the fact that there is simply no way we can ever win over dealers. After all we agreed on a price, whatever the OMV and COE. It's a willing buyer willing seller business.
oh yea since now the OMV figure is out, new buyers should bargain hard. At 51k OMV, the price should drop back to abt 160k level. We did the deal before the cars are here, betting on both COE and OMV. We were right on the COE but wrong on the OMV. Now since you know, so you should demand a price that is more fair.
wt_know
Well-Known Member
Re: Prices for Bimmers
when i book my car, it was an ex-stock. hence, i keep pressing the SE to reveal or find out the car OMV. she got only one standard answer, the OMV is just an estimation for reference. we will only know the OMV when your car is registered and obviously the OMV is lower than previous.
when i book my car, it was an ex-stock. hence, i keep pressing the SE to reveal or find out the car OMV. she got only one standard answer, the OMV is just an estimation for reference. we will only know the OMV when your car is registered and obviously the OMV is lower than previous.
c722;444202 said:
Markus
Well-Known Member
Re: Prices for Bimmers
Actually, the same happened to me when I bought my car. However the irony is I dealt directly with the boss of an established PI and so was given a very reasonable refund off the original purchase price. So I believe that PML should be prepared to do the same if they wish to keep customers happy.
Actually, the same happened to me when I bought my car. However the irony is I dealt directly with the boss of an established PI and so was given a very reasonable refund off the original purchase price. So I believe that PML should be prepared to do the same if they wish to keep customers happy.
ktnpl
Well-Known Member
Re: Prices for Bimmers
To be fair, I think it works both ways. If OMV turns out to be higher, we as customers would not want to top up so I rather that the dealer fix the price and averages it out across the year just like what they do for COE to keep the price stable. For example, if COE drops, prices will not fall by the same amount. Similarly, when COE increases, they absorb some of the increase.
In this way, we will not bang our head for buying at the wrong time if COE and/or OMV plunges immediately after we made the purchase.
This reminds me of the DBS High 5 series, etc that made the news last year. If investors make money, they keep the profits. But when they make a loss, they want compensation. I understand the part about the elderly and illiterate being misled but I could not agree why the educated are also asking for a full refund. Even for casual investors, there was enough information in the small print to warn us of the risks. There was also an article by Tan Kin Lian warning the public of the risks in the product, way before the meltdown.
I asked for the OMV before committing to the purchase and the figure was exactly the same when the car is registered but mine is ex stock.
It will be a very pleasant surprise if the dealer offers a refund. The person who did this is a rare breed indeed
.
On the other hand, if this happens regularly, the dealers would actually have to price in the risk and customers would end up paying more in the long run.
Markus;444251 said:
To be fair, I think it works both ways. If OMV turns out to be higher, we as customers would not want to top up so I rather that the dealer fix the price and averages it out across the year just like what they do for COE to keep the price stable. For example, if COE drops, prices will not fall by the same amount. Similarly, when COE increases, they absorb some of the increase.
In this way, we will not bang our head for buying at the wrong time if COE and/or OMV plunges immediately after we made the purchase.
This reminds me of the DBS High 5 series, etc that made the news last year. If investors make money, they keep the profits. But when they make a loss, they want compensation. I understand the part about the elderly and illiterate being misled but I could not agree why the educated are also asking for a full refund. Even for casual investors, there was enough information in the small print to warn us of the risks. There was also an article by Tan Kin Lian warning the public of the risks in the product, way before the meltdown.
I asked for the OMV before committing to the purchase and the figure was exactly the same when the car is registered but mine is ex stock.
It will be a very pleasant surprise if the dealer offers a refund. The person who did this is a rare breed indeed
.On the other hand, if this happens regularly, the dealers would actually have to price in the risk and customers would end up paying more in the long run.
Re: Prices for Bimmers
A PI has better goodwill than PML huh ? actually I'm not surprised. PML is in this exclusive dealer position, there is no need to be competitive. PI on the other hand has to do lots of extra things to win over customers against all odds.
Interesting you bring up the DBS HiNote. I agreed with u mostly. Ppl buying those products mostly know what it is. Too bad it failed. To me the most misleading one is the Pinnacle Notes, a product whose principal is *protected*. You have to dig in very deep to find out the things *protecting* your investment is something far risky than the investment itself. That is, im my opinion, almost misselling. Unless you are in this line there is no way you can tell the difference.
For car dealers, PML is obviously playing this game. We small flies are completely at their mercy. Can PML honestly say they do not know the new OMV is going to be 5% lower, even though EUR is 4% higher, and accessories are 20k more ? Why all the SEs kept on saying in May "oh last OMV is 54k, and the new batch has a lot more accessories" ? This is of course a selling tactic. Look, dealers are already pricing in the OMV and COE variation. Unless COE/OMV jumps by 10k, their profit margin is guaranteed.
A PI has better goodwill than PML huh ?
actually I'm not surprised. PML is in this exclusive dealer position, there is no need to be competitive. PI on the other hand has to do lots of extra things to win over customers against all odds.Interesting you bring up the DBS HiNote. I agreed with u mostly. Ppl buying those products mostly know what it is. Too bad it failed. To me the most misleading one is the Pinnacle Notes, a product whose principal is *protected*. You have to dig in very deep to find out the things *protecting* your investment is something far risky than the investment itself. That is, im my opinion, almost misselling. Unless you are in this line there is no way you can tell the difference.
For car dealers, PML is obviously playing this game. We small flies are completely at their mercy. Can PML honestly say they do not know the new OMV is going to be 5% lower, even though EUR is 4% higher, and accessories are 20k more ? Why all the SEs kept on saying in May "oh last OMV is 54k, and the new batch has a lot more accessories" ? This is of course a selling tactic. Look, dealers are already pricing in the OMV and COE variation. Unless COE/OMV jumps by 10k, their profit margin is guaranteed.
ktnpl
Well-Known Member
Re: Prices for Bimmers
OT a bit, I bought Yield 15 which is capital protected. So far 8 of 25 credit events occurred so the capital is still safe. Redemption is next year so looks like it is pretty safe even though there is no 100% guarantee. They are still paying the interest of 3% a year even though valuation is at 58% at the moment.
OT a bit, I bought Yield 15 which is capital protected. So far 8 of 25 credit events occurred so the capital is still safe. Redemption is next year so looks like it is pretty safe even though there is no 100% guarantee. They are still paying the interest of 3% a year even though valuation is at 58% at the moment.
motorknut
Well-Known Member
Re: Prices for Bimmers
Dealer never told me how it's calculated. I didn't ask. I specifically requested details once available. My SE just gave me an estimation and called me the same day I signed my purchase agreement to update me on the official OMV for PARF. I didn't really understand that part about OMV only at reg time either, but I didn't bother asking. If I thought my SE was trying to bullshit me, I'd have walked out and gone elsewhere. No need to talk so much to them.
What i said was my own assumption of how it works. My OMV was higher than other cars that were booked a couple of months earlier, despite the rate being lower at my time of registration. but I wasn't about to complain. It was also higher than my SE's estimation.
Your assumption seems to ignore the possibility of FX hedging. If OMV is based on dealer quote, then they'd probably factor in the actual FX cost to them. Not the FX rate as of time that you purchased the car. That was what I was trying to get across. Alot of companies (try to) hedge their FX risk - some better than others. So fx rate at time of reg could be way off fx rate locked in via options, this doesn't even take into account time difference between shipment arrival and customer purchase.
I'd expect dealers who receive shipments as assigned by BMW would know in advance how much they'd have to pay up to BMW. Versus smaller PIs who typically buy fewer units and probably prefer to keep cash outflows to the minimum. But again, I am not clear on the process. I just find it less likely that OMV is calculated based on FX rates at time of registration. Maybe I'm wrong... if someone here works for the LTA and is familiar with this, I'd love to hear from you.
c722;444202 said:
Dealer never told me how it's calculated. I didn't ask. I specifically requested details once available. My SE just gave me an estimation and called me the same day I signed my purchase agreement to update me on the official OMV for PARF. I didn't really understand that part about OMV only at reg time either, but I didn't bother asking. If I thought my SE was trying to bullshit me, I'd have walked out and gone elsewhere. No need to talk so much to them.
What i said was my own assumption of how it works. My OMV was higher than other cars that were booked a couple of months earlier, despite the rate being lower at my time of registration. but I wasn't about to complain. It was also higher than my SE's estimation.
Your assumption seems to ignore the possibility of FX hedging. If OMV is based on dealer quote, then they'd probably factor in the actual FX cost to them. Not the FX rate as of time that you purchased the car. That was what I was trying to get across. Alot of companies (try to) hedge their FX risk - some better than others. So fx rate at time of reg could be way off fx rate locked in via options, this doesn't even take into account time difference between shipment arrival and customer purchase.
I'd expect dealers who receive shipments as assigned by BMW would know in advance how much they'd have to pay up to BMW. Versus smaller PIs who typically buy fewer units and probably prefer to keep cash outflows to the minimum. But again, I am not clear on the process. I just find it less likely that OMV is calculated based on FX rates at time of registration. Maybe I'm wrong... if someone here works for the LTA and is familiar with this, I'd love to hear from you.
motorknut
Well-Known Member
Re: Prices for Bimmers
but PI's also ask for top up if coe price is above a certain amount? otherwise the car price is different for guaranteed coe right? thats what i understand when i shopped at a PI 4 years back. So if PIs expect top ups for their losses, quite fair to expect refunds for surplus. I know u are referring to OMV, but i'm just quoting example of the difference in business models.
nobody complains when they get a coe of much higher value (and higher cost to the AD) than originally expected, so people shldn't complain when it goes the other way. that's luck of the draw. Only thing buyers can be is informed of the process so they can decide if they are comfortable with the AD. If not, we can always go elsewhere.
Markus;444251 said:
but PI's also ask for top up if coe price is above a certain amount? otherwise the car price is different for guaranteed coe right? thats what i understand when i shopped at a PI 4 years back. So if PIs expect top ups for their losses, quite fair to expect refunds for surplus. I know u are referring to OMV, but i'm just quoting example of the difference in business models.
nobody complains when they get a coe of much higher value (and higher cost to the AD) than originally expected, so people shldn't complain when it goes the other way. that's luck of the draw. Only thing buyers can be is informed of the process so they can decide if they are comfortable with the AD. If not, we can always go elsewhere.
Markus
Well-Known Member
Re: Prices for Bimmers
Actually, from my experience, PI's COE terms are no different from ADs. They tell you how many bids or if you prefer, you pay a slight premium for guaranteed COE. And if the COE goes up they end up swallowing the loss.
Perhaps i should add that in my case, the OMV difference was about 7k less than what was promised so its a significant difference that the PI was compelled to make up for. In this case, it was automatically offered to me once OMV was confirmed. I bargained for bit more and got it.
From what I understand, PIs try to widen their profit margins by declaring as low an OMV as LTA would accept. Its kinda like a bidding game so I'm told. They keep upping the COE until LTA tells them to tow the car out of the port (meaning LTA accepts bid). Its a shame that ADs appear to be resorting to these tactics. It doesn't bode well for customers because in the past, LTA would have used AD's OMV as benchmark. So now if everyone bidding low, the OMVs may face downward pressure.
Actually, from my experience, PI's COE terms are no different from ADs. They tell you how many bids or if you prefer, you pay a slight premium for guaranteed COE. And if the COE goes up they end up swallowing the loss.
Perhaps i should add that in my case, the OMV difference was about 7k less than what was promised so its a significant difference that the PI was compelled to make up for. In this case, it was automatically offered to me once OMV was confirmed. I bargained for bit more and got it.
From what I understand, PIs try to widen their profit margins by declaring as low an OMV as LTA would accept. Its kinda like a bidding game so I'm told. They keep upping the COE until LTA tells them to tow the car out of the port (meaning LTA accepts bid). Its a shame that ADs appear to be resorting to these tactics. It doesn't bode well for customers because in the past, LTA would have used AD's OMV as benchmark. So now if everyone bidding low, the OMVs may face downward pressure.
Re: Prices for Bimmers
Markus, I agreed with u completely. Now even AD is playing this game. I just realized this too late.
Motorknut, I understand your point. (btw I just realize the words I used previously are a bit strong. Sorry for that. Nothing against you really.) You are more positive on AD than me. To me, there is no way a 2% movement of fx either way can overshoot a 10k additional items. The OMV is not just the cost of the vehicle, that's what I found out. Dealer has enough room to "manage" this. Fx hedging, there is no vol for SGD/EUR pair (u can take a look at the fx option available), so the cost of it should be very small. Look, I'm not here demanding PML to give me a refund (like those DBS HiNotes guys). I'm just saying I completely underestimated PML, and I did not get a good deal I had thought. My calculation is flawed from day one. Lesson learned: never predict OMV. Dealers can always do something. Always book ex-stock. OMV is not transparent so we can't even make an educated bet. At least for COE it's transparent, so I can do my own homeowork so to speak. In April I already bet the market will recover so I bet the COE will go up (along with stocks, which is my other bet ). That's why I booked the car at a higher price. Btw OMV fx is determined by LTA at date of registration, not the date dealer buys it. If it is, then all 525s coming in this shipment must have identical OMV. They are not. Just as Markus put it, this OMV/COE game is both way. When we do "guaranteed COE" deal, we and dealer make a bet on COE both way. It's just that now I learned even OMV is the same way too, if it's not ex-stock.
ktnpl: u know, if the bank says the valuation is only 58%, and you see ur credit event is only 8 out of 25 before u make a loss, you should then offer them to buy at their valuation. Whenever I did this to my banker, they always came back and say: "oh the valuation is for mtm purpose only. I can't sell you at that/there is no secondary market". But if you want to unwind, they are very happy to pay you 58% I'm sure. See this world is never fair. We just try to make the best out of it. Some times we win, some times we lose.
Markus, I agreed with u completely. Now even AD is playing this game. I just realized this too late.
Motorknut, I understand your point. (btw I just realize the words I used previously are a bit strong. Sorry for that. Nothing against you really.) You are more positive on AD than me. To me, there is no way a 2% movement of fx either way can overshoot a 10k additional items. The OMV is not just the cost of the vehicle, that's what I found out. Dealer has enough room to "manage" this. Fx hedging, there is no vol for SGD/EUR pair (u can take a look at the fx option available), so the cost of it should be very small. Look, I'm not here demanding PML to give me a refund (like those DBS HiNotes guys). I'm just saying I completely underestimated PML, and I did not get a good deal I had thought. My calculation is flawed from day one. Lesson learned: never predict OMV. Dealers can always do something. Always book ex-stock. OMV is not transparent so we can't even make an educated bet. At least for COE it's transparent, so I can do my own homeowork so to speak. In April I already bet the market will recover so I bet the COE will go up (along with stocks, which is my other bet
). That's why I booked the car at a higher price. Btw OMV fx is determined by LTA at date of registration, not the date dealer buys it. If it is, then all 525s coming in this shipment must have identical OMV. They are not. Just as Markus put it, this OMV/COE game is both way. When we do "guaranteed COE" deal, we and dealer make a bet on COE both way. It's just that now I learned even OMV is the same way too, if it's not ex-stock.ktnpl: u know, if the bank says the valuation is only 58%, and you see ur credit event is only 8 out of 25 before u make a loss, you should then offer them to buy at their valuation.
Whenever I did this to my banker, they always came back and say: "oh the valuation is for mtm purpose only. I can't sell you at that/there is no secondary market". But if you want to unwind, they are very happy to pay you 58% I'm sure. See this world is never fair. We just try to make the best out of it. Some times we win, some times we lose.
motorknut
Well-Known Member
Re: Prices for Bimmers
But options typically will command higher cost anyway, no? perhaps its relatively cheaper than other ccy pairs due to low vols, but still not a cheap derivative. One reason why some companies unfortunately choose to hedge with exotic fx options, thinking its a damn good deal. then kena big time when they realize they took unlimited downside.
I understand your point too, when i was shopping first thing i asked was omv & coe value so i could do my sums. I still don't get why OMV was not avail pre-registration, esp when I was buying ex-stock. I think i gave my SE a look when she told me that as well! but i'm lucky she didn't give me over-optimistic estimation. So looks like ex-stock or not, OMV is not confirmed to buyers till registration.
if what u say is true about prevailing fx rate at time of registration, I find that a silly way for LTA to be doing things. i guess they just want to get their tax, not really bothered about consumer's benefit in terms of getting a fair parf rebate value. Ultimately, the lack of transparency on OMV at time of purchase is ridiculous. I am just as against it as you, but i just don't think it fair to argue FX rates unless we really know exactly how the OMV is calculated.
c722;444331 said:Motorknut, I understand your point. (btw I just realize the words I used previously are a bit strong. Sorry for that. Nothing against you really.) You are more positive on AD than me. To me, there is no way a 2% movement of fx either way can overshoot a 10k additional items. The OMV is not just the cost of the vehicle, that's what I found out. Dealer has enough room to "manage" this. Fx hedging, there is no vol for SGD/EUR pair (u can take a look at the fx option available), so the cost of it should be very small. Look, I'm not here demanding PML to give me a refund (like those DBS HiNotes guys). I'm just saying I completely underestimated PML, and I did not get a good deal I had thought. My calculation is flawed from day one. Lesson learned: never predict OMV. Dealers can always do something. Always book ex-stock. OMV is not transparent so we can't even make an educated bet. At least for COE it's transparent, so I can do my own homeowork so to speak. In April I already bet the market will recover so I bet the COE will go up (along with stocks, which is my other bet
But options typically will command higher cost anyway, no? perhaps its relatively cheaper than other ccy pairs due to low vols, but still not a cheap derivative. One reason why some companies unfortunately choose to hedge with exotic fx options, thinking its a damn good deal. then kena big time when they realize they took unlimited downside.
I understand your point too, when i was shopping first thing i asked was omv & coe value so i could do my sums. I still don't get why OMV was not avail pre-registration, esp when I was buying ex-stock. I think i gave my SE a look when she told me that as well! but i'm lucky she didn't give me over-optimistic estimation. So looks like ex-stock or not, OMV is not confirmed to buyers till registration.
if what u say is true about prevailing fx rate at time of registration, I find that a silly way for LTA to be doing things. i guess they just want to get their tax, not really bothered about consumer's benefit in terms of getting a fair parf rebate value. Ultimately, the lack of transparency on OMV at time of purchase is ridiculous. I am just as against it as you, but i just don't think it fair to argue FX rates unless we really know exactly how the OMV is calculated.
Re: Prices for Bimmers
actually my point is that fx is not relevant in this case. The cost is at best marginal. I learned a lession that OMV is not just the value of the vehicle. The other "handling/shipping cost" leaves enough room for , er, ambiguity. Lesson learned.
I hope the day will come this OMV/PARF system gets an update ( just like they finally allow PARF rebate in cash). For example, allow client to see the declare list of OMV. We cannot really blame LTA for this because the original system is really for controlling the car population. It's the dealers that are using the system.
motorknut;444346 said:
actually my point is that fx is not relevant in this case. The cost is at best marginal. I learned a lession that OMV is not just the value of the vehicle. The other "handling/shipping cost" leaves enough room for , er, ambiguity. Lesson learned.
I hope the day will come this OMV/PARF system gets an update ( just like they finally allow PARF rebate in cash). For example, allow client to see the declare list of OMV. We cannot really blame LTA for this because the original system is really for controlling the car population. It's the dealers that are using the system.
Re: Prices for Bimmers
Dear all,
Is there anyone who visited PML lately, could post the latest price of 320i and 318i quoted by SE? If possible, pls share with us on other freebies, free vouchers, overtrade terms, financing interest rate, guarantee COE$, estimated OMV, etc.
Many thks!
Cheers!
Dear all,
Is there anyone who visited PML lately, could post the latest price of 320i and 318i quoted by SE? If possible, pls share with us on other freebies, free vouchers, overtrade terms, financing interest rate, guarantee COE$, estimated OMV, etc.
Many thks!
Cheers!
yabadabado
New Member
Re: Prices for Bimmers
Anyone knows where the head unit can play MP3? If not, any solution? I don't wish to buy the Ipod connector.
Thanks
Anyone knows where the head unit can play MP3? If not, any solution? I don't wish to buy the Ipod connector.
Thanks
Re: Prices for Bimmers
the advertisements states 20K overtrade so it should not be any lesser. FYI, i was offered 20K OT this week. however with the latest Cat B COE at $14K, i am not sure if there is any changes in price. will call my SE tomorrow to check. PML did offer me a good price for my car at $5K more than what others offered.
They also offered extra $2K discount or service vouchers.
shiokS60;442871 said:
the advertisements states 20K overtrade so it should not be any lesser. FYI, i was offered 20K OT this week. however with the latest Cat B COE at $14K, i am not sure if there is any changes in price. will call my SE tomorrow to check. PML did offer me a good price for my car at $5K more than what others offered.
They also offered extra $2K discount or service vouchers.
