Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
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Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
One thing to note is that PML has an extremely high volume of cars going in and out of their workshops on a daily basis. (Don't take my word for it, head down to East Coast Service Center and Performance Center at Alexandra and judge for yourself).
On our forums, we see anywhere from 1 to 2 cases being posted on BMW.SG regarding service headaches with PML on a monthly basis (granted two threads got posted yesterday). Sometimes it's cases about Site Sponsors or external workshops.... to date, it's probably less than 10 cases which have been posted here.
The last case (with regards to the bonnet respray issue) which was reported to be from PML was in FEB this year (which was resolved very quickly from following up from Performance Motors) That thread is around if you want to look at it. So I would say, there's less than 10 cases per year for BMW.SG.
Sure, there will be people outside of this community who don't post online. Fine. That said, there's also alot of members and owners in here who think that their BMW is more than just a car and is impervious to external elements. I've also recalled reading a post where someone was asking where he could drive without getting pits on his paint work - sometimes, human expectations go out of the window especially when the cost of a car goes higher.
And oh yes, the admin team doesn't delete threads. We don't hold sides.
We state the case, forward information and let the BMW management do their job.
Nothing is perfect, but if you know how it to make it so that members - even close friends don't bicker, fight or flame each other in the forums, let me know. I'd love you for it.
The management of BMW Asia and Performance Motors are already looking into this case. In fact, I was at Performance East Coast this morning and the team does know of this specific case and they know that it's already on the public forums. They're working actively to resolve it for the customer, but hey, it will take some time. I urge you guys to look at this from a higher perspective and look around. Other workshops and automotive companies are also having issues within their customer support and aftersales service. If you think X company has perfect service, sure, go post in their forums for feedback and I'm betting my dollar you'll have your fair share of opinions.
Want to go PI? Sure, you also bear the risk and everything else that comes along with it. If you want to go PI, please, for your own sanity and ours.. get advice from SOMEONE who ACTUALLY PI'd in his own car and is maintaining it completely, not someone who says he did, but still bought his car from the dealership. Walk the talk. Unfortunately it's not always the case in the forums and members
My Z4M Coupe has it's own set of problems during it's short lifetime, but i've experienced nothing but fast followup, replacement, sometimes a bit of queue and repeat sessions, but mostly it's been all taken care of. And no, I don't flash my admin wildcard to get my way or 'bang table' like how people think it generally is.
Set your expectations right, don't believe everything you read here, and if you really want to escalate things, get your facts done to the detail. It's too easy to misconstrue personal opinion into fact and mass belief into a failure of a system.
The problem with the forums here is a lot of things are based on "i hear that my friends" etc - all because it's all too easy to flame PML behind a monitor (hey we have 'members' here who are keyboard heros and quick to flame etc but in real life, pretty chicken IMO). Go read the earlier posts in this thread if you don't believe me.sszone;557693 said:
One thing to note is that PML has an extremely high volume of cars going in and out of their workshops on a daily basis. (Don't take my word for it, head down to East Coast Service Center and Performance Center at Alexandra and judge for yourself).
On our forums, we see anywhere from 1 to 2 cases being posted on BMW.SG regarding service headaches with PML on a monthly basis (granted two threads got posted yesterday). Sometimes it's cases about Site Sponsors or external workshops.... to date, it's probably less than 10 cases which have been posted here.
The last case (with regards to the bonnet respray issue) which was reported to be from PML was in FEB this year (which was resolved very quickly from following up from Performance Motors) That thread is around if you want to look at it. So I would say, there's less than 10 cases per year for BMW.SG.
Sure, there will be people outside of this community who don't post online. Fine. That said, there's also alot of members and owners in here who think that their BMW is more than just a car and is impervious to external elements. I've also recalled reading a post where someone was asking where he could drive without getting pits on his paint work - sometimes, human expectations go out of the window especially when the cost of a car goes higher.
And oh yes, the admin team doesn't delete threads. We don't hold sides.
We state the case, forward information and let the BMW management do their job.
Nothing is perfect, but if you know how it to make it so that members - even close friends don't bicker, fight or flame each other in the forums, let me know. I'd love you for it.
The management of BMW Asia and Performance Motors are already looking into this case. In fact, I was at Performance East Coast this morning and the team does know of this specific case and they know that it's already on the public forums. They're working actively to resolve it for the customer, but hey, it will take some time. I urge you guys to look at this from a higher perspective and look around. Other workshops and automotive companies are also having issues within their customer support and aftersales service. If you think X company has perfect service, sure, go post in their forums for feedback and I'm betting my dollar you'll have your fair share of opinions.
Want to go PI? Sure, you also bear the risk and everything else that comes along with it. If you want to go PI, please, for your own sanity and ours.. get advice from SOMEONE who ACTUALLY PI'd in his own car and is maintaining it completely, not someone who says he did, but still bought his car from the dealership. Walk the talk. Unfortunately it's not always the case in the forums and members
My Z4M Coupe has it's own set of problems during it's short lifetime, but i've experienced nothing but fast followup, replacement, sometimes a bit of queue and repeat sessions, but mostly it's been all taken care of. And no, I don't flash my admin wildcard to get my way or 'bang table' like how people think it generally is.
Set your expectations right, don't believe everything you read here, and if you really want to escalate things, get your facts done to the detail. It's too easy to misconstrue personal opinion into fact and mass belief into a failure of a system.
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Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
What happens if your new DSC unit fails? Is it warranted by your external company? If you get (touch wood) into an outside accident and fault lies within that unit...
erm, what happens?
Couple of questions though.sugi;557512 said:Hi friends
Just would like to share my recent experience at PML Kp Arang service centre.
Last week my E65 DSC light came up which related to ABS and other short of things error sign came up.
Very worried as it is related to brakes, without further delay i detour to PML service centre.
There greeted to male service sales.
He says confirm my DSC ECU is gone and need to be change. That would cost about $4K+.
Since i am changing new DSC, he need to check when was my last software upgrade.
Reason is new DSC may not adapt to old software and there could be another error message upon replacement.
He look at his computer and says my last software upgrade is 2008 and i need to get the software upgraded.
Finally the best and most ridiculous statement from PML staff:
Since you are upgrading your software, your CCC (Computer onboard stuff) will crash as it is not compatible with new software. You need change to new CCC.
That would estimate total cost at least $10K, he claim he has done similiar repair to another E65/E66 pointing to the car outside which has just been repaired. WTFI pity the owner being ripped by PML. :verysad:
I challenge him how can such things happen where it is disadvantage to consumer.
I brought an example about my notebook computer where i upgrade from Window vista to Windows 7 and i do not need to change my note book.
He replies, no choice BMW design their car in such way. There is a life span for software and CCC. What The F. Sorry very piss off when i relate to the incident..
I think PML is trying to make customer look stupid into believing their words. Some people fall for their scam. Luckily i have little knowledge about electronics.
This incident make me realize PML is bunch of idiotic people without knowledge.
Today i have done my repair of DSC replacement outside. Device cost is about $1000 with software reflash and installation i paid $1400. Way much cheaper of 4K which i was quoted or more than $10K, if i fall for their scam.
Today i pledge and swear.......good bye PML
In my next car which i am aiming to get 535 F10, i will definitely get from PI.
I have drop email to BMW asia on this matter and earlier problem i had at PML alexandra during my service.
This may not change the fact of PML but i would like to share the most ridiculous statement of changing your car CCC due to software upgrade.
Cheers guys.
What happens if your new DSC unit fails? Is it warranted by your external company? If you get (touch wood) into an outside accident and fault lies within that unit...
erm, what happens?
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
Fair enough on your replies.
But did you know they did the wrong diagnosis on my engine?
Did you know they gave me a letter in black and white stating everything is fine when it was not?
Did you know they voided the warranty in 3 days after looking at my car?
Did you know I asked them to furnish me an official letter from ///M stating the warranty was void but they could never give me a confirmation?
My posts on facebook were the solutions that I took because the technical competency of the team who looked at my car was questionable. I mean if you had an official BMW representative office give you a letter in black and white stating all is fine but warranty is voided, don't you think its weird? I knew something was wrong and I was right about it. BMW Asia was wrong and never admitted it. How do you expect me to trust their words and actions after this incident. Its quite a natural action even if it was someone else in my place
So I dont think you know the full story because they probably will only tell you what you have to hear to post a positive remark against all the complains against PML and their technical team. Trust me, soon there will be so many complaints that you will start asking yourself why.
ryan;557711 said:
Fair enough on your replies.
But did you know they did the wrong diagnosis on my engine?
Did you know they gave me a letter in black and white stating everything is fine when it was not?
Did you know they voided the warranty in 3 days after looking at my car?
Did you know I asked them to furnish me an official letter from ///M stating the warranty was void but they could never give me a confirmation?
My posts on facebook were the solutions that I took because the technical competency of the team who looked at my car was questionable. I mean if you had an official BMW representative office give you a letter in black and white stating all is fine but warranty is voided, don't you think its weird? I knew something was wrong and I was right about it. BMW Asia was wrong and never admitted it. How do you expect me to trust their words and actions after this incident. Its quite a natural action even if it was someone else in my place
So I dont think you know the full story because they probably will only tell you what you have to hear to post a positive remark against all the complains against PML and their technical team. Trust me, soon there will be so many complaints that you will start asking yourself why.
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
We will not probably come to an agreement within the next few posts over a long issue like your previous experience due to the grey areas it was at when it came to modifications. At the end of the day, we don't know the full story on the facts from both sides. I don't believe it's a very clear cut case as well and mods complicated your issue.
Omar, I didn't mean to single you out and I hope you don't feel any offended. The end of the day takeaway from all of these is that, to know your rights and be firm and set your expectations right. In my personal experience, I've done alot to my ex-car and trust me I wouldn't have even dared to bring it back close to Performance Motors.
I don't need to post positive feedback on PML, just that I personally feel details are always left out of such forum posts and is never 100% accurate and always one-sided to the poster. Add fuel to the fire and horns will grow on the accused. Just my 2 cents.
It would be absolutely clear if your mods were specific to the nature to what they did, and what was exactly done.satinGHOST|r!der;557726 said:
We will not probably come to an agreement within the next few posts over a long issue like your previous experience due to the grey areas it was at when it came to modifications. At the end of the day, we don't know the full story on the facts from both sides. I don't believe it's a very clear cut case as well and mods complicated your issue.
Omar, I didn't mean to single you out and I hope you don't feel any offended. The end of the day takeaway from all of these is that, to know your rights and be firm and set your expectations right. In my personal experience, I've done alot to my ex-car and trust me I wouldn't have even dared to bring it back close to Performance Motors.
I don't need to post positive feedback on PML, just that I personally feel details are always left out of such forum posts and is never 100% accurate and always one-sided to the poster. Add fuel to the fire and horns will grow on the accused. Just my 2 cents.
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
Ryan,
No one discloses their mods on forums. People express interest on modifications and some do acknowledge they have mods on their cars. I am unlucky that it was the basis of some modifications that complicated my matter. You have to remember that as a principal of a BMW here in Singapore, they are expected to troubleshoot and assist the customer even if warranty has to be voided. Fine. But when a principal knocks on you saying your car is fine but your warranty is not and when you find out there is something wrong, how reliable is the source? They expect customers to be misled into believing everything is fine with the car then one fine day when something happens, all they will say is OOPS. You don't have any more warranty. These actions are very questionable and reflect VERY VERY badly on the team.
To put things in perspective, after my case, coincidentally the incompetent engineer was posted out or something. Call it coincidence or what not, but I suspect a cover-up.
Now my concern is about the technical competency of both PML and BMW Asia. Both don't seem to know what they are doing. It is very very evident seeing the amount of people express their negative feedback here. While you have to remember that majority of BMW owners don't post here like you mentioning how full the service centre in East Coast is, you also have to remember that cases mentioned here is just a tip of the iceberg. Also, BMW owners who have modified their cars (A majority) should prepare themselves that such a thing may possibly happen to them the same way it did to me. That is why I am posting such feedback so that they know what to expect if one day something similar happens. Feedback, negative or positive has to be a freedom of one's expression. They should take this opportunity to buck up and get their house in order.
ryan;557711 said:
Ryan,
No one discloses their mods on forums. People express interest on modifications and some do acknowledge they have mods on their cars. I am unlucky that it was the basis of some modifications that complicated my matter. You have to remember that as a principal of a BMW here in Singapore, they are expected to troubleshoot and assist the customer even if warranty has to be voided. Fine. But when a principal knocks on you saying your car is fine but your warranty is not and when you find out there is something wrong, how reliable is the source? They expect customers to be misled into believing everything is fine with the car then one fine day when something happens, all they will say is OOPS. You don't have any more warranty. These actions are very questionable and reflect VERY VERY badly on the team.
To put things in perspective, after my case, coincidentally the incompetent engineer was posted out or something. Call it coincidence or what not, but I suspect a cover-up.
Now my concern is about the technical competency of both PML and BMW Asia. Both don't seem to know what they are doing. It is very very evident seeing the amount of people express their negative feedback here. While you have to remember that majority of BMW owners don't post here like you mentioning how full the service centre in East Coast is, you also have to remember that cases mentioned here is just a tip of the iceberg. Also, BMW owners who have modified their cars (A majority) should prepare themselves that such a thing may possibly happen to them the same way it did to me. That is why I am posting such feedback so that they know what to expect if one day something similar happens. Feedback, negative or positive has to be a freedom of one's expression. They should take this opportunity to buck up and get their house in order.
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longhorn
Well-Known Member
A lot of PML bashing of late. I thought long and hard if I should post, and decided that I would. Just to provide hopefully, some balanced perspective. I am into my 3rd Bimmer. First one pre-owned, and next 2 were bought new. I have done approx 80 - 90% of all my servicing with PML, rest with outside workshop. Following is purely my own experience to-date (what happens in future, I dunno lah)...
PML: My overall experience with PML has largely been positive. I found them helpful, friendly, courteous and professional. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would probably rate them 8.5. I would say that my worst experience with PML was when my E90 developed this mouldy smell (common problem). When I called PML, they say this is normal. Nothing they can do. I was like WTF??? Other than that, I would say my experiences are positive. My most recent experience, on Monday morning I sent my car in to put the 3M tape around the doors and adjust idling rev. They said may take more than one day. But car was ready by 3 pm so i was pleasantly surprised. Maybe i have low expectations..
Sales Exec: Both my encounters were extremely positive. Maybe I am lucky? I would recommend them to anyone.
Servicing workshop: some of u questioned why would anyone send their car to PML for servicing when warranty is over? Actually my experience with outside workshop is also positive. But ambience is of cos different lah. I can't imagine tai tais driving their bimmers to sin ming and sitting at the kopi shop to wait.
Buying PI vs PML: This is a very personal decision. For me, the savings has to be very substantial to sway me towards PI.
Sorry for long post.
PML: My overall experience with PML has largely been positive. I found them helpful, friendly, courteous and professional. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would probably rate them 8.5. I would say that my worst experience with PML was when my E90 developed this mouldy smell (common problem). When I called PML, they say this is normal. Nothing they can do. I was like WTF??? Other than that, I would say my experiences are positive. My most recent experience, on Monday morning I sent my car in to put the 3M tape around the doors and adjust idling rev. They said may take more than one day. But car was ready by 3 pm so i was pleasantly surprised. Maybe i have low expectations..
Sales Exec: Both my encounters were extremely positive. Maybe I am lucky? I would recommend them to anyone.
Servicing workshop: some of u questioned why would anyone send their car to PML for servicing when warranty is over? Actually my experience with outside workshop is also positive. But ambience is of cos different lah. I can't imagine tai tais driving their bimmers to sin ming and sitting at the kopi shop to wait.
Buying PI vs PML: This is a very personal decision. For me, the savings has to be very substantial to sway me towards PI.
Sorry for long post.
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
if pml problems with wat satinghostrider said, they can pursue it wif him mah. just like m3post.com got a vendor feedback forum, maybe we shld create one here as well. then all crap can be let out, & wait for the vendor to reply, if they want to. I think we have the rite to complain, & if vendor got problem with us, can contact us mah
if pml problems with wat satinghostrider said, they can pursue it wif him mah. just like m3post.com got a vendor feedback forum, maybe we shld create one here as well. then all crap can be let out, & wait for the vendor to reply, if they want to. I think we have the rite to complain, & if vendor got problem with us, can contact us mah
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
Bro longhorn.
PML will contact you to extend your waranty by another 2 years and throw in free labour charge as well for being such a wonderful customer...
Agree on the rich and famous wont squad down drinking kopi while waiting for their car to be serviced part....
OT -end....
Bro longhorn.
PML will contact you to extend your waranty by another 2 years and throw in free labour charge as well for being such a wonderful customer...
Agree on the rich and famous wont squad down drinking kopi while waiting for their car to be serviced part....
OT -end....
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Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
Positive or negative experiences, let it flow. Feedbacks are feedbacks, be it biased or objective. Some are quantifiable, some are opiniated.
Example of quantifiable feedbacks - example a fish dish for $1200. Excessively expensive or not, you be the judge yourself. The lesson learnt there is not the price tag per se, but the way the recommendations are made by the sales staff, as well as the process the patrons made up their mind without checking the price.
Example of opiniated feedbacks - workshop A which "screwed-up" someone's paintwork. The damage - example different shades - could never be quantified or qualified by a third party. If the owner feels so, he should have his right to express his disappointment. Whether I choose to believe, given my own experience with workshop A, is a different issue. If too many of these "unhappiness" grow, workshop A will have to take them seriously. That's a positive take from such feedback.
The credential of the forumer will inherently lend his version credibility.....
Positive or negative experiences, let it flow. Feedbacks are feedbacks, be it biased or objective. Some are quantifiable, some are opiniated.
Example of quantifiable feedbacks - example a fish dish for $1200. Excessively expensive or not, you be the judge yourself. The lesson learnt there is not the price tag per se, but the way the recommendations are made by the sales staff, as well as the process the patrons made up their mind without checking the price.
Example of opiniated feedbacks - workshop A which "screwed-up" someone's paintwork. The damage - example different shades - could never be quantified or qualified by a third party. If the owner feels so, he should have his right to express his disappointment. Whether I choose to believe, given my own experience with workshop A, is a different issue. If too many of these "unhappiness" grow, workshop A will have to take them seriously. That's a positive take from such feedback.
The credential of the forumer will inherently lend his version credibility.....
Slater
Well-Known Member
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
Ageed with Ryan that expectations of PML have to be realistic and managed given the volume or cars they deal with on a daily basis. Personally I feel the lead time for an appointment date can be quite a wait, but they have always been friendly and responsive with my issues. There were several occassions when the issue recurred, the SE took ownership of the issue and made it right, as suppose to shrugging it off as "Normal".
This goes beyond just normal car servicing. Couple of months back when I was desperately looking for a ride after being ripped by PI, my sales person from PML came to pick me up personally at 9pm, arrange a test drive wen we go to Alexandra and did the paper work that very night. By the time we were done its almost 11pm.
Quite frankly any AD or electronics company, not just PML, would void warranty on parts of the car if they have been tampered with. I would be suprise if they didn't. Its like an insurance company telling its policy holder that you can self inflict harm on your own body and we will still cover you no matter what. AD or not, no one would honour the warranty. Just doesn't add up.
Ageed with Ryan that expectations of PML have to be realistic and managed given the volume or cars they deal with on a daily basis. Personally I feel the lead time for an appointment date can be quite a wait, but they have always been friendly and responsive with my issues. There were several occassions when the issue recurred, the SE took ownership of the issue and made it right, as suppose to shrugging it off as "Normal".
This goes beyond just normal car servicing. Couple of months back when I was desperately looking for a ride after being ripped by PI, my sales person from PML came to pick me up personally at 9pm, arrange a test drive wen we go to Alexandra and did the paper work that very night. By the time we were done its almost 11pm.
Quite frankly any AD or electronics company, not just PML, would void warranty on parts of the car if they have been tampered with. I would be suprise if they didn't. Its like an insurance company telling its policy holder that you can self inflict harm on your own body and we will still cover you no matter what. AD or not, no one would honour the warranty. Just doesn't add up.
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
Agree with you Slater on voiding of warranty of parts. But I am not contesting that. The scenrio is the like a case of a doctor telling you are perfectly fine and healthy but you feel very sick and for sure know you are not OK. Somehow this is confirmed by someone else and it turns out you are not OK. How would you feel/react? That is where I am coming from. The question of technical competency and the way customers are treated is highly questionable. And as you can see, PML's diagnosis always falls short of their usual "It's Normal". I think people had just about enough.
Slater;557774 said:
Agree with you Slater on voiding of warranty of parts. But I am not contesting that. The scenrio is the like a case of a doctor telling you are perfectly fine and healthy but you feel very sick and for sure know you are not OK. Somehow this is confirmed by someone else and it turns out you are not OK. How would you feel/react? That is where I am coming from. The question of technical competency and the way customers are treated is highly questionable. And as you can see, PML's diagnosis always falls short of their usual "It's Normal". I think people had just about enough.
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Slater
Well-Known Member
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
Maybe you could go into more detail on what you were trying to claim warranty for, which led to PML informing you that your cars entire warranty has been void.
There will always be 2 sides to the coin. Ghost Rider, I am not in tune with what you have done to your car or what happened subsequent to that, hence i cannot really comment.satinGHOST|r!der;557782 said:
Maybe you could go into more detail on what you were trying to claim warranty for, which led to PML informing you that your cars entire warranty has been void.
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
My claim on the warranty has been denied because the ECU was not stock. Fine.
However, while I knew something was wrong with the car, PML and BMW Asia repeatedly told me that everything was perfectly fine and nothing was wrong. I knew something was not right because if my car is running fine, they would not have gone to the extent of voiding the warranty. There would not be any need to do so because there is nothing to be claimed since everything is nice and dandy.
I am only feedbacking on the technical competency of the services of both parties. Why was I given the wrong information to "think" nothings wrong with my car is the reason I am pissed. All this boils down to the technical team and their ability to troubleshoot and be clean about the truth to owners.
Slater;557785 said:
My claim on the warranty has been denied because the ECU was not stock. Fine.
However, while I knew something was wrong with the car, PML and BMW Asia repeatedly told me that everything was perfectly fine and nothing was wrong. I knew something was not right because if my car is running fine, they would not have gone to the extent of voiding the warranty. There would not be any need to do so because there is nothing to be claimed since everything is nice and dandy.
I am only feedbacking on the technical competency of the services of both parties. Why was I given the wrong information to "think" nothings wrong with my car is the reason I am pissed. All this boils down to the technical team and their ability to troubleshoot and be clean about the truth to owners.
Slater
Well-Known Member
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
May I probe further and ask if your engine has blown or something to that extent since ECU remapping?
Ok. There seems to be some disconnect here. PML void your warranty coz ECU is not stock, that much we know. But you felt something was wrong with your ride still becuase PML void your warranty without reason.satinGHOST|r!der;557786 said:
May I probe further and ask if your engine has blown or something to that extent since ECU remapping?
Re: Another Ridiculous Experience @ PML
The engine was not blown. It was just making an unusual noise and oil consumption was high. They told me this was normal but your warranty has been void. That's the issue here. I wanted to know if I could rely on their opinion if everything was ok but realised that it was not normal at all when I stripped the engine to find out they did not troubleshoot properly. Had I continued driving, it would have blown. That could have been a much worse position for me because it would not be able to even rebuild it.
Slater;557790 said:
The engine was not blown. It was just making an unusual noise and oil consumption was high. They told me this was normal but your warranty has been void. That's the issue here. I wanted to know if I could rely on their opinion if everything was ok but realised that it was not normal at all when I stripped the engine to find out they did not troubleshoot properly. Had I continued driving, it would have blown. That could have been a much worse position for me because it would not be able to even rebuild it.
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